Talk:Involvement of Croatian Catholic clergy with the Ustaša regime

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"Croat Catholic Ustashi clergy" was on the votes for deletion page three times:

Contents

[edit] My edit

This really is a terrible article which adds no value to wikipedia, save for confirming prejudice. I have completely revamped the article but I would vote to eliminate this article.

A real article would address Stepinac's intial support for Pavelic and his subsequent opposition, protests and intervention on behalf of Jews and Serbs. The article should also address the particular priests and monks who were supposedly involved in genocide.

In addition, the claim that 1500 priests were involved in fascism is particularly baseless as there were only 1500 priests on the territory of the Independent State of Croatia during this period; of whom 600 were killed by communists and 600 or so fled to the west.

Finally, most of the information being used for this article comes from 1) anti-Catholic websites; 2) information "gained" from communist show trials and 3) anti-Croatian websites.

Until there is something OBJECTIVE being presented here (eg none of this "many priests were supporting genocide and conversions and were active Ustase" line but rather "according to professor X who has researched the relationship between Stepinac and Pavelic", etc) I think my version should stand.

As I said earlier, this article (which I have since amended) is a joke and does not meet even the most basic academic standards.

[edit] Fixing it

So. If the page isn't going to be deleted again, who is going to fix it according to the verifiability and relevancy guidelines? --Shallot 20:48, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

So, a month has passed, and the page is effectively unchanged. The phrase "active Ustaša" still dominates the article, and there's no explanation whatsoever what it actually means in context of escaping justice, nor how it applies to people designated as such. I think I'm going to ditch all of those and leave only those where there's at least the accusation being made is concrete.
Also people who were "decorated by Pavelic" because that can mean just about anything.
Also people who were chaplains in the Ustaša army because I don't believe that this was considered a crime per se (any army can have chaplains).
Also, the number 1500 is rather large, and probably includes all of the clerics who emigrated and not only the clero-fascists. --Shallot 12:07, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] My edit

Now, let us see if we can arrive to something more sensible.

  1. I've created what could be a more NPOV paragraph. Obviously discuss.
  2. I've taken the list away. There is absolutely no point in including people saying "very active", "active Ustasa", etc... I would agree in including people with precise, clear and substantiated accusations, but not generic phrases.
  3. The title definitely is wrong: it should be "Relations between Roman Catholic Clergy and the Ustasa", otherwise the article would be simply a list which makes no sense (to me).
  4. Please notice that although there may be strong feelings, there is no point in turning the WP into a list of aggravations.

Obviously feel free to comment. Pfortuny 07:16, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've renamed the page now. Could be too long a title, suggestions welcome. --Shallot 21:38, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Renamed too so it sports the correct š in the name. Orzetto 18:12, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edit war

OK folks, start actually re-writing text with source citations. This is a highly contentious subject, but many of the charges against leading Catholics as complicit in genocidal activities can be found in non-communist sources. Deleting the categories is just improper.--Cberlet 16:09, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


"One controversial subject concerning the involvement of the clergy with the regime was the conversion of Orthodox Serbs into the Roman Catholic Church. Some clergy enthusiatically welcomed this task, seeing it as a mission to bring schiasmatics into what they considered the true church. On November 17, 1941, a bishops' conference was convened in Zagreb regarding the issue of mass religious conversions. The Bishopric News no. 2, 1942 subsequently recorded a directive that said "Our work is legal because it is in accord with official Vatican policy [...] that the Eastern Orthodox Church be converted to the Catholic faith"."

Source is needed here.

[edit] Why the article has been renamed

  1. The article shows no proof of any "involvement of the clergy". The letters of bishops and such cannot be construed as "involvement", since they indicate only their relations to the government, as churches in every country always had relations with all the governments.
  2. Criminals like Majstorović are not "clergy" but sick individuals; it is preposterous to identify them with the Church as a whole.
  3. Finally, why "the Ustaša regime"? It was a country with a name: the Independent State of Croatia.

Because of all this, I have renamed this article into "Relations between the Roman Catholic Church and the Independent State of Croatia". --Zmaj 10:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Whoa... Here it comes again... And I thought that it was all over after WWII. What is it with you guys? You always want Serbs to apologize for their crimes, and I agree there were hundreds, if not thousands. But the moment something is said against Croats, you know, the ones that claim to have killed more Serbs in WWI than the entire Ottoman Empire during its rule in the Balkans (Maks Luburic), you deny everything, or admit something, but try to hide most of it.

Nice touch with the discussion. So is it now "move and explain"? I thought it was "discuss and then move" if agreement was made. I'll move tha page back untill this is duscussed, if we reach an agreement, I'll move the page myself :-)

I agree about the part where you say that Majstorovic was sick, and sure that he doesn't represent the church as a whole. But Stepinac does. Stepinac gave his blessing to Ante Pavelic, just like the pope did for Benito Mussolini (Locarno Treaty). That sounds like clergy involvement to me. Ante's government was approving genocide and there is no difference between Ante Pavelic and Adolf Hitler (except that Hitler focused more on Jews, while Ante focused on Serbs).

And finally, the entire world knows that the Independent State of Croatia was run by the Ustashe. So, the Ustashe regime was running everything, and thats why "the Ustaša regime" is in the title.

So, before we start another edit war, lets really discuss first, and maybe move after. --serbiana - talk 00:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Bormalagurski, I'll ascribe the rant in your first paragraph to childishness. Now let's move on to serious matters.
  • "Discuss and then move" is fine by me.
  • Your claims about Stepinac's "involvement" can be applied to any major established religion in any country, any time. The Church was involved in the sense in which any church is involved in temporal affairs of the world. If Pavelić's government approved genocide, Stepinac certainly did not, as proven by his letters from WWII. Excerpts from those letters have been included in the Croatian Wikipedia article and I plan to translate them soon.
  • The Independent State of Croatia was ruled by the Ustashe regime. It was not identical with the Ustashe regime, but only ruled by it. The Church has relationships with a state, not with "regimes".
--Zmaj 13:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The Independent State of Croatia was based on Genocide. It was established by the Nazis to cleanse the territories of Serbs, Jews, communists... The Ustashe was an organization in which you couldn't be a real soldier untill you killed Serbs or Jews. One example of this is the testimony of the Pag concentracion camp guard Oreskovic:

Još kao đak gospićke gimnazije stupio sam 1939 u vjersku organizaciju "križare". Tu su nas pod firmom vjere odgajali u ustaškom duhu. Na naše sastanke su dolazili Jurica Frković i Juco Rukavina i držali nam predavanja protiv Srba i komunista. Naša parola je bila -u ime Krista ubij antikrista. Antikristi su bili Srbi, Židovi i komunisti. Organizovali smo svoju udarnu jedinicu koja je noću napadala ljevičare. Kad je došlo do rata i rasula jugoslovenske vojske mi smo je razoružavali. Odmah smo stupili u ustaše jer smo to smatrali svojom nacionalnom dužnošću. Mene su sa još nekim Gospićanima odredili u logor Slano na otoku Pagu. Tu su se nalazili najviše Židovi i Srbi, a bilo je i nekih Hrvata ljevičara. Kad sam došao tamo zapanjio sam se kad sam vidio kako muče one ljude. Spavali su pod vedrim nebom u žici. Za hranu su im nisu davali ništa osim slanih riba, ali im vode nisu davali tako da su mnogi poludjeli od žeđi. U to je došla nova skupina zatočenika. Starješine su nam dale naređenje da odvojimo 200 zatočenika iz prve partije, da ih odvedemo na more i pobijemo. Ja i neki moji drugovi nismo mogli. Onda su nas grdili i prebacivali nam kakvi smo mi to Hrvati i ustaše. Govorili su nam da nije ustaša onaj koji ne može s veseljem ubiti Srbina, Židova i komunistu. Da nas pridobiju na ubijanje davali su nama mlađima vina i likera. Dovodili su pred nas zatočene djevojke, svlačili ih do gola i govorili da možemo uzeti bilo koju, ali da ih poslije akta moramo ubiti. Neki mladići opijeni vinom i zaneseni strašću počeli su tako ubijati. Ja nisam mogao. Gadilo mi se i to sam javno rekao. Nakon par dana došao je u logor neki viši funkcioner iz Zagreba Luburić. Došao je da pogleda rad logora. Tek tada je počelo pravo klanje. More oko Paga bilo je crveno od krvi. Luburiću su referirali da ja i još neki nećemo da ubijamo. Na to je Luburić sazvao sve ustaše, postrojio nas i održao govor u kojem je rekao da su izdajice ustaštva oni koji ne mogu da ubijaju Srbe, Židove i komuniste. Na to je upitao ko je taj "usraša" koji ne može da ubija. Javio sam se ja i još nekoliko. Kako sam bio prvi po redu od tih koji su se javili, Luburić me je pozvao pred stroj i upitao me kakav sam ja to ustaša kad ne mogu ubiti Srbina i Židova. Rekao sam da sam spreman u svako doba dati život za Poglavnika, da mislim da bih mogao ubijati u borbi ali da ne mogu ubijati ovako goloruke ljude, a osobito žene i djecu. On se na to nasmijao i rekao je da je naša dužnost da očistimo Hrvatsku od te kuge, a tko to neće je neprijatelj Poglavnika i Hrvatske kao i oni. Na to je pozvao jednog iz svoje pratnje i nešto mu šapnuo. Ovaj je otišao i donio dvoje male dvogodišnje židovske djece. Luburić mi je predao jedno dijete i rekao da ga zakoljem. Odgovorio sam da ne mogu.Na to su svi oko mene prasnuli u smijeh, rugali mi se i vikali- "usraša", a ne ustaša. Onda je Luburić izvadio nož i zaklao preda mnom dijete govoreći: "Evo kako se radi". Kad je dijete vrisnulo i prasnula krv, sve oko mene se zavrtjelo. Skoro sam pao. Jedan me ustaša prihvatio. Kad sam se malo pribrao rekao mi je Luburić da dignem desnu nogu. Digao sam, a on mi je pod nogu stavio ono drugo dijete. Onda je zapovjedio: "udri". Udario sam nogom i zgnječio glavu djetetu. Luburić mi je prišao, potapšao po ramenu i rekao: "Bravo, bit ćeš ti još dobar ustaša". Tako sam ubio prvo dijete. Nakon toga sam se opijao do smrti. U pijanstvu sam zajedno sa drugovima silovao neke židovske djevojke, a onda smo ih poubijali. Poslije se nisam morao ni opijati. Kasnije, kad je Slano likvidirano i svi njegovi zatočenici ubijeni, poslan sam u kotar Korenicu na čišćenje. Šta sam tamo radio znate… ("Pavelić", Šime Balen, str. 78-80)

So, if Stepinac blessed such a murderous organization... Hmmm... Maybe the Vatican should re-think the whole "blazeni" thing... --serbiana - talk 20:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, to help any non-Croatian speaking users who are reading this discussion, Bormalagurski's quote is about atrocities in an Ustashe concentration camp. Now, Bormalagurski, why did you post this? Neither I nor Cardinal Stepinac ever claimed Ustashe didn't commit atrocities, so what are you trying to prove? Your post has nothing to do with the topic of this article or with my arguments from the previous post. I can only conclude you're not ready for a reasonable discussion yet. --Zmaj 08:49, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Don't attack me personally, is that the only way you know how to defend your views? By attacking your opponent and not his views? Stepinac blessed a murderous regime! You're saying he didn't approve of it! This is a paradox, it's just impossible. You know very well that if he was against the attrocities, he would withdraw his support, but he didn't. My post is here to show that the Ustashe were all about genocide against innocent Serbs and Jews, and every normal person knows that. Stepinac knew that. And he gave them his blessing. --serbiana - talk 07:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I did not attack you personally. Asking you why you posted something and what you are trying to prove is not a personal attack but a legitimate question. I suggest you read WP:NPA. Furthermore, do not distort my words. I never said Stepinac did not approve of the regime. I said he did not approve of the atrocities. --Zmaj 07:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I can only conclude you're not ready for a reasonable discussion yet., thats discussing the user, not the article. Approving a regime that comitted attrocities means that you're approving attrocities, it's as simple as that. If I support Jack the Ripper, I'm supporting what he does. Doesn't that make me a supporter of a killer? Supporting a murderous regime, and then writing letters about how its bad that they're killing people is quite ironic, and I'm afraid Stepinac was a little... well, crazy. I mean, you like the regime, but you don't like what they're doing... Who says that! And why would the Ustashe stop killing? I mean, Stepinac was saying that its bad, but at the same time helping the regime that was doing the attrocities. -- serbiana - talk 23:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why bishops?

Bormalagurski restored the passage claiming that some of the then bishops in the territory not only cooperated with the regime but were allegedly implicated in murders or forced religious conversions of Serbs and Jews. Now, the article has no evidence for this claim, so the passage has to be removed. Or did I miss something? --Zmaj 07:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

You missed history between 1941. and 1945. But, it's not your fault, you've been influenced by the pro-nazi Ustashe propaganda in Croatia. -- serbiana - talk 23:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I won't stand such offensive and supposedly ironic comments. Either you answer with facts, or you accept the removal of that phrase. --Zmaj 06:36, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sharitch

Sharitch is probably Ivan Šarić. If the linked text by Hubert Butler is authentic, then that article should be updated, too. --Joy [shallot] 07:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stella Alexander

Stella Alexander's history of Yugoslavia shows that it wasn't the Catholic Church that collaborated with the Fascists, but rather, the Fascists made it a point to take over the Catholic seminaries.

Blessed Alois Stepinac condemned the forced conversions of the Serbs to Catholicism as invalid according to her. I don't have the citation at hand, but I did a paper on it at Penn State in college.--68.45.161.241 00:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

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