Talk:Internet2

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[edit] Internet2 connected to Internet1?

Is the internet2 connected to the regular internet? Or is it a complete independent network? thanks, --Abdull 12:31, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's a complete independent network, according to an article in USAToday, Internet2 is higher-tech version of regular Internet, posted online 4/13/2005 9:17 PM. According to the article, Internet2 users can only communicate with other Internet2 users. Often, however, at many colleges, Internet2 is linked transparently to Internet1 behind the scenes. For example, a student sending e-mail would exchange data across Internet1, until e-mailing a someone at another Internet2 university; that e-mail would, instead, travel across Internet2. The article goes on to say that Internet2 will probably never be open to the public, but that the technologies developed in Internet2 will eventually migrate over to Internet1, making Internet1 faster and more stable. --Tregonsee 21:27, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I just want to point out that all this information is already mentioned in the article. It states that it is a completely independant network. If that's not already clear, perhaps we should work on rewording it so it is. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:03, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Internet2 is not a network

I reverted the information added that suggests Internet2 is a computer network that is somehow separate from the Internet. This misconception is largely the result of all the recent reporting on the RIAA's lawsuits against students attending several Universities that participate in the Abilene Network. If you will notice, nearly all of the articles that reference Internet2 as a network have been written recently and are the sad result of poorly checked facts. The original text of this article is correct; see the About page on the Internet2 website for very clear confirmation of this. IPv6 and related technologies have been deployed on many backbones and major web service providers for a few years now, and it's a fallacy to call Abilene a 'separate Internet.' Abilene simply forms a major interconnected backbone, on which one can access other backbone members at very high speeds. Abilene members can be accessed from the Internet just like any other major backbone network (I access systems at Georgia Tech from my home all the time, as anecdotal evidence)

I believe the information regarding the "Internet2 controversy" is appropriate, but should be included on the Abilene page, not here. I will put a note on this page mentioning the mislabeling of Abilene as Internet2. -- uberpenguin 18:22, 2005 Apr 16 (UTC)

"What is Internet2?

Think of Internet2 as a higher-tech version of the regular Internet. Like "Internet1," Internet2 connects computers all across the country. But it uses newer, more experimental technology. That can make it less stable than Internet1 — but it's also about 100 times as fast under typical conditions.

Who gets to use it?

More than 200 universities and 60 companies belong to Internet2, as do a handful of organizations and government agencies. To join, members must contribute research toward "developing a better Internet," says Douglas Van Houweling, CEO of the non-profit group that runs Internet2. It is not open to the public.

Who pays for it?

Users pay fees to the non-profit that administers the network. A typical university would pay about $200,000 a year. Government agencies, such as the National Science Foundation, also provide some funding.

Is it connected to the regular Internet?

No, it's a separate network. Internet2 users can only contact other Internet2 users. That's why all the accused file-swappers are college students.

The original Internet works fine. Why is Internet2 needed?

In 1969, the University of California at Los Angeles and Stanford University set up a simple computer network that could send data back and forth between the two campuses. For more than 20 years, academics tinkered with this network and its successors. They used the networks to test computer technology and send research data.

In the early 1990s, commercial interest in one of the successor networks, now called the Internet, soared. Web pages popped up, and suddenly it became impractical to tinker with the network for research projects. Scientists wanted their own network again, and in 1996, created Internet2."

USA Today [1]

USA Today is wrong. Simple as that. -- uberpenguin 03:07, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Internet 2 necessity & control issues

With people like George Tenet saying:

"I know that these actions will be controversial in this age when we still think the Internet is a free and open society with no control or accountability," he told a closed information-technology security conference in Washington, "but ultimately the Wild West must give way to governance and control." - [2]

I have to wonder, isn't anyone else suspicious of the true motives behind implementing Internet 2? I have yet to see a convincing case as to its necessity (from a rights-respecting perspective); perhaps that could be elucidated in this article?


Additional reading: [3] - "Kiss your Internet Good-bye"

[edit] Abilene is not connected to "Internet1"

Abilene is not connected to "the first" Internet. Abilene is seperate, but this Wikipedia article (formerly) seemed to imply that it is actually connected to the so-called Internet1. Abilene is a private network backbone and does not connect to the "commercial" Internet. Qwest's webpage has a good FAQ about Internet2/Abilene. [4] Robotbeat 23:58, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] RE: Internet 2 necessity & control issues

The article as it stands now (00:19, 21 October 2005 (UTC)), the article is pretty free of speculation, and that's for the best right now. If the article was like 5 pages long, then maybe a speculation or political dispute section could be added, but to add speculation into such a short article would be to confuse people reading it and (worse) perhaps give credibility to those who claim that Wikipedia is simply an Internet chatroom for people to vent their opinions.

"I have to wonder, isn't anyone else suspicious of the true motives behind implementing Internet 2? I have yet to see a convincing case as to its necessity (from a rights-respecting perspective);"

You seem to be confusing Internet2 with something it's not. Abilene is what you probably are refering to when you say "Internet2." Abilene is for research purposes only. It is not the next-generation of the Internet. It is not for the general public, nor is it ever going to be. Some of the things learned during the Abilene project will certainly help when doing future upgrades to the Internet, but Abilene itself is NOT an upgrade to the Internet that the public uses. And most experts agree that the Internet will need to be upgraded at some time in future. IPv6 is one technology used by Abilene which will become more and more necessary for the public Internet as time goes on.

On a personal note, I think that you should be more careful in making wild speculations like this when you don't know what you're talking about. I believe that people should not hold strong opinions about things they do not understand. Robotbeat 00:19, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alex Jones' Opinion on Internet2

How many people here think that the opinion of Alex Jones on the Internet warrants mention in the article? (See [5] [6] [7])--Jersey Devil 17:37, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Alex who? Who cares now? Revert with a vengence. -- uberpenguin 20:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Upon reading a bit on this guy, exactly why do his opinions warrant consideration? He isn't any sort of respected technology commentator, and the linked article sounds more like paranoia and ignorance than a valid critique of Internet2 (or, what it ACTUALLY is, and not whatever he seems to think it is). -- uberpenguin 20:34, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

My point exactly, it is just that the user (User:Striver) who put it up goes around putting up Alex Jones' opinions on many articles including this one claiming that not doing so violates NPOV (claiming that NPOV requires all views to be shown in an article) and is an "attack" on his point of view. It gets quite frustrating when certain users refuse to stop reverting articles to interject their POV claiming that I am the bad guy. This guy put an Rfc on me for this kind of thing.--Jersey Devil 00:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Anyone intrested in you can take a look at this Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam:The Muslim Guild/Articles for deletion. But im not here to talk about that.

Ill change the headline to "views". Alex is a notable jornalist with a notable site and has 2 millions of subscribers. You dont need to like his views to accept that NPOV demands that his views to be represented, no mater how much you hate them. --Striver 14:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, his views are cirtical, so the headline is correct. However, i added a disblaimer.--Striver 14:27, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The guy has no idea what he's talking about. His speculations are completely irrelevant to Internet2. --Mmx1 18:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. I don't care if he is a notable journalist which I've never heard of; he's completely ignorant when it comes to what Internet2 is, and his opinions here are totally invalid. You wouldn't go to the article on, say, computers and add some looney's opinion that computers are in fact powered by unicorns and are merely a government scheme to enact mind control, would you? Alex's misunderstanding of what Internet2 is should sound nearly equally ludacris to anyone with the ability to read this article.
For you to use NPOV as an excuse to shoehorn someone's opinion into an article requires at the very least the opinion to be coherent and have some relationship to reality. This guy doesn't know what Internet2 is any better than a tea leaf knows the history of the East India Company. -- uberpenguin 04:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Wait a minute. It doesn't matter whether this guy (Alex Jones) is a brilliant, insightful, intrepid revealer of shadowy conspiracies, or a nutcase freak-show publicity hound. Striver's references are primary sources, which is to say, opinions, and unless you can find a credible secondary source reporting on Alex Jones's opinions, it doesn't belong here. Encyclopedias are not newspapers. -- Gnetwerker 07:28, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

P.s. -- A disblaimer? I gotta write that one down. -- Gnetwerker 07:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Here are some more information Alex Jones has seen fit to reveal to us. We should start putting those facts in relevant articles! Who starts with Vicente Fox being able to morph into a green devil?! Surely that's important relevant information; suppressing it is POV CENSORSHIP! What, are you all a part of the the evil tyrannical secret rulers of the world who are trying to kill 80% of world population? Weregerbil 10:28, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Alex Jones is a well known journalist, radio host, and conspiracy theorist. He has been interviewed on the Coast to Coast AM national radio show several times. His criticism is warranted and cited and should not be removed. --Northmeister 07:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Not everything that comes out of the mouth of a radio chat show host is notable. He is not an expert on the matter by any stretch of the imagination. He is not an encyclopedic source. Weregerbil 08:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy does not allow this. We require reliable sources, in particular this violates the partisan websites policy which states:

Partisan political and religious sources should be treated with caution, although political bias is not in itself a reason not to use a source. Widely acknowledged extremist political or religious websites — for example, those belonging to Stormfront, Hamas, or the Socialist Workers Party — should never be used as sources for Wikipedia, except as primary sources i.e. in articles discussing the opinions of that organization or the opinions of a larger like-minded group, but even then should be used with great caution, and should not be relied upon as a sole source.

Therefore it is not plausible that we cite Alex Jones on every single page on Wikipedia because "he is a famous talk show host".--Jersey Devil 08:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

It is irrelevant whether he is famous; as far as I'm concerned he's a raving paranoid lunatic and he certainly hasn't the slightest clue what Internet2 is. See my above example about unicorns for an idea of just how far removed from reality this guy's perception of technology is. I don't care about you folks' particular edit feud over Mr. Jones opinions, but his near total ignorance of what Internet2 is makes his opinion invalid for inclusion in this article. -- uberpenguin 12:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Let's step back for moment. Our purpose is to tell the whole story. Alex Jones might be a little out there on some issues, but he documents his theories quite well or Coast to Coast AM would not have given his ideas the light of day. That said...adding Jones to this article as someone who fears or has grave concerns about Internet2 considering his background as an investigative journalist who has exposed the ceremonies (quite odd I might say) at the Bohemian Grove, and who continues to challenge authority on different levels. His method is crude but I don't think he is a 'lunatic' as some call him. Adding him to every article, no unless it is relevant to that article in some way. But, since criticism of Internet2 is certainly warranted to put in this article (we are not suppose to be advocating, but simply reporting with NPOV). Let us include his reservations. People who thinks Jones is a crackpot as above will ignore this, those who listen to him seriously but with a grain of salt -like myself, will be enlightened but will want to read more about this Internet2. In other words, I don't see a legitimate argument against the inclusion of Jones reservations. Also, please...do not compare Alex Jones to Neo-Nazis or StormFront...that is just not right. --Northmeister 23:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Straw Poll for inclusion of Jones reservations

Look, let us engage in a straw poll per my above statement why he should be included. I will accept the consensus on this from those interested. --Northmeister 23:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Just sign your signature below for a rough straw poll on this... --Northmeister 23:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

INCLUDE

  • --Northmeister 23:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC) -See my comments above.
  • --Striver 14:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

DO-NOT INCLUDE

  • uberpenguin @ 2006-03-22 00:10Z - As I said above, the man hasn't the foggiest idea what Internet2 even IS. That not only takes away credibility from whatever point he is trying to make, but it makes his opinion irrelevant to this article.
  • Gnetwerker -- Jones and his writings are a primary source and not eligible for inclusion in this situation. I also believe Jones' opinions are not correct, but that is beside the point. (I also think the use of a straw poll for this is silly.) -- Gnetwerker 00:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Primary sources are actually encouraged very highly here and should be as we wish to get it right. Just a note on your comment. --Northmeister 02:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
No, primary sources are not "encouraged very highly here." See guidelines on reliable sources and no original research. --mtz206 02:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Why are you so hostile with me? Here it is: "Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia." See Wikipedia:No original research. --Northmeister 03:00, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Mmx1 What Jones calls Internet2, is not same the Internet2 of this article. What he calls internet2 is frankly, your problem, not mine, but it doesn't belong here. --Mmx1 01:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The consensus above drawn from a rough straw poll seems to indicate that the editors concerned with this article wish to exclude the Jones material. I will stand behind this so long as the consensus holds, even though I have objections. Striver is yet to give us his idea on this and Jersey Devil wishes not to participate (see below). I want to thank everyone for the collaborative work. Good job folks. --Northmeister 02:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Objections to straw poll

This is ridiculous, we don't have "straw polls" for content that violates wikipedia policy already stated.--Jersey Devil 02:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Which violation? If your going to make accusations then provide us the violation? The above was an attempt to work the situation out and do the right thing. It's called collaborative work so we know what the community thinks. Straw Polls are sometimes a part of wikipedia process of editing when disputes exist. It is not binding, but I will stick with it, as the inclusion of Jones, though relevant as far as I am concerned, is not important enough to engage in endless debate. I accept the will of the majority of editors on this. Thanks for the input though. --Northmeister 02:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Nonsense. Again, Jones is free to speculate about state-controlled internet hubs, but thats not Internet2, regardless of what he chooses to call it. --Mmx1 02:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Tone down the hostility. I disagree, but I accept the straw poll as binding on myself so long as consensus holds. Thanks. --Northmeister 03:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
It is not hostility toward you the poster or Alex Jones the subject of the criticism to call a spade a spade. Internet2 is a consortium of universities and corporations (no government connection! except tangentially through the state schools that are involved) that created a high-speed backbone. There are no plans to dismantle the existing backbone nor to "register web sites" on either backbone as Alex Jones claims, so indeed it is complete nonsense. Feel free to put it on a page about censorship concerns and the internet, but this is irrelevant to the content of this article. --Mmx1 03:52, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Has it occurred to anyone that if Alex Jones is as off-base as he appears to be in this case, maybe it wouldn't hurt to email the guy and clue him in? I'm sure he'd withdraw his position, unless he's come across something that frames the argument differently, which us non-investigative journalists wouldn't have prior knowledge of. If the latter is the case, then that'd surely make a worthy addition to this article, for that matter.

Feel free to. We aren't Alex Jones' watchdog, we're just concerned with keeping this article accurate. -- uberpenguin @ 2006-04-04 14:07Z 14:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism Section

This page needs an added 'criticism' chapter, so that critics who have voiced opinions that reflect possible negative aspects or abuses of power that the a governtment monitored and controlled Internet 2 may be susceptible to. The internet is a government controlled and monitored service for it's people in China, and the Chinese people suffer great restrictions on their uses of it and also the world's content of information on the internet is available to them only in a highly censored manner. If a criticism section is not added then this article needs to be tagged for lack of neutrality.

First, Internet2 is not "the next Internet", it's a non-profit consortium that's developing and testing next-generation technologies that may make their way to the internet. Second, said consortium is not "controled" by the government. Third, NPOV does not mean representing every manner of criticism on a topic that people have come up with. -- mattb @ 2006-12-02T16:01Z
So your opinion is that it will be a perfect flawless system which we should give our unconditional trust to.. and criticism of it's flaws, potential and otherwise, is an unneeded chapter in it's wikipedia page entry? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.13.116.249 (talk) 00:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
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