Template talk:Infobox Television episode

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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Television, which collaborates on television programs and related subjects on Wikipedia.

Contents
Documentation - Discussion

Babylon 5 episode
“Midnight on the Firing Line”
Wikipedia's example image, on a white background
Episode no.	Season 1 Episode 1
Guest star(s)	Paul Hampton (The Senator)
Writer(s)	J. Michael Straczynski
Director	Richard Compton
Production no.	103
Original airdate	26 January 1994
Episode chronology
← Previous	Next →
"Babylon 5: The Gathering"	"Soul Hunter"
List of Babylon 5 episodes

[edit] Documentation

[edit] Syntax

{{Infobox Television episode
| Title        =
| Series       =
| Image        =
| Caption      =
| Season       =
| Episode      =
| Airdate      =
| Production   =
| Writer       =
| Director     =
| Guests       =
| Episode list =
| Prev         =
| Next         =
}}

[edit] Usage

Parameters in bold are required fields.

Parameter	Explanation
Title	The name of the episode.
Series	The name of the TV series this episode is part of.
Image	An image relevant to the show. Should be resized to a width of 300 pixels or below.
Caption	A caption explaining the image.
Season	The number of the season this episode is part of.
Episode	The number of the episode within the season
Airdate	The original airing date of the episode
Production	The production code or number of this episode.
Guests	Guest stars of this episode. Separate multiple people with line breaks (<br/>).
Writer	The writer(s) of this episode. Separate multiple people with line breaks (<br/>).
Director	The director(s) of this episode. Separate multiple people with line breaks (<br/>).
Episode list	Wiki link to the "List of <showname> episodes" article.
Prev	Wikilink to the previous episode article.
Next	Wikilink to the next episode article.

[edit] Example

{{Infobox Television episode
| Title        = Midnight on the Firing Line
| Series       = [[Babylon 5]]
| Image        = [[Image:Midnight on the firing line 1.jpg|256px]]
| Caption      = Garibaldi and Ivanova, with Londo in the background
| Season       = 1
| Episode      = 1
| Airdate      = [[26 January]], [[1994]]
| Production   = 103
| Writer       = [[J. Michael Straczynski]]
| Director     = [[Richard Compton]]
| Guests       = [[Paul Hampton]]<br/>   (The Senator)
| Episode list = [[List of Babylon 5 episodes]]
| Prev         = [[Babylon 5: The Gathering]]
| Next         = [[Soul Hunter (Babylon 5)|Soul Hunter]]
}}

[edit] Discussion

[edit] Webcast Air Dates

Adult Swim is premiering new episodes of its shows on the internet the friday before they air on television. Should there be a distinction in the infobox between TV airings and internet airings, or should the first airing on any medium take precedence?

Would it be a television episode if it was broadcast only online? MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 08:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cosmetics

I thought the infobox looked ugly, so I edited it. Extraordinary Machine 04:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Added the Episode list parameter. Change this to a PIPED link (ie in [[]]) to the page which lists the episode chronology, like eg List of Stargate SG-1 episodes. So: Episode chronology -- Alfakim -- talk 16:38, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Would the Episode list parameter be better rendered as:

[[{{{Episode list|Episode}}}|Episode chronology]]

? This would cause the "Episode chronology" to always be a link, but never an incorrectly piped one.-- Alfakim -- talk 16:44, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I added the Image parameter. Change this to [[Image:Example.jpg|300px]] to put an image at the top of your infobox (like a screenshot of the episode). Remember to add the |300px or you'll ruin your page. -- Alfakim -- talk 22:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

This is no longer the case. The infobox stretches now, so smaller or larger infoboxes won't mess up a page. - Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 09:30, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Supernatural/Natural

I have an idea. Some shows waver inbetween supernatural and natural content, and it's not always clear if something supernatural has just occured. This happens in shows like The X-Files or Lost. It doesn't happen so much in a sit-com like Friends. But I think it would be helpful for viewers and people interested if those who know the stories behind the episode mark a show (one that would be relevant) with a symbol if something supernatural has occured in the episode. Might be a bit of a spoiler, but then if someone is looking up information on an episode, there are going to be spoilers anyhow and I think that an article on a show should be comprehenisive and I think a clear label like this will clearly help people understand what is going on in the show. What do you all think? I know answers may take awhile (sometimes months, I'll watch the page). (Bjorn Tipling 05:56, 14 November 2005 (UTC))

this seems too specific an idea, and i really dont see its worth. -- Alfakim -- talk 14:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Well say for instance that you just watched an episode of Lost on DVD and something happened like someone was killed by a monster in the jungle that was never actually shown to the viewers. The episode ends and you're not sure just what happened and you are dying to know if it was supernatural or a natural thing (the difference between the two would drastically change the nature of the plot). I believe people want to know, because there are people who want to watch Ghost/Alien/Monster Fantasy/Sci-fi and people who don't. Some people just want to know, and so I think this notice (only on shows that have 'supernatural' (I hate using this term, but it's better than 'fantasy') would go a long way to inform people about the nature of a TV episode. (Bjorn Tipling 04:35, 15 November 2005 (UTC))

That's not really useful for this template, which is a general info template. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 05:09, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Airdates

I changed US airdate to Airdate since not all the series air in the US first. --Tone 18:03, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Navbox

Previous	Next
Babylon 5 episode
"Midnight on the firing line"
Wikipedia's example image, on a white background
Episode No.	Season 1 Episode 1
Guest star(s)	{{{Guests}}}
Writer(s)	{{{Writer}}}
Director	{{{Director}}}
Production No.	103
Airdate	26 January 1994
Episode chronology
"Babylon 5: The Gathering"	"Soul Hunter"
List of Babylon 5 episodes

I was thinking of changing the navbox part of the episode box. But i'm not real sure yet if i actually like it. Still I'm also not 100% satisfied with the way it is now. Does anyone else have good ideas on how to do the Prev/Next/Index thing ? The DJ 22:29, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I took a stab at it. I guess we'll soon find out how people like it... —Down10 ^TACO 09:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The episode lists are being squished to the right instead of centered at the bottom, can this be fixed? Jay32183 15:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Precedent TFDs?

Hello folks. Have there any precedent TFDs concerning deleting templates created for individual shows in favour of this one. I ask, becasue Template:Infobox Fawlty Towers has been created for Fawlty Towers, which doesn't seem to do anything that this template doesn't do. The JPS^{talk to me} 19:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added colour tag

The default colour is still the tag as before, however an optional parameter has been added so the background can be changed. Matthew Fenton (contribs) 11:19, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Any background colouring should convey some information, so use data templates if you are using a colour to represent a certain genre for example, such as {{tl:Infobox Television episdode/sci-fi colour}}, then have | genre = sci-fi. Ideally the background should be invariant and declared in the stylesheet. ed g2s • talk 02:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes they do, some shows have projects associated with them or templates. The project colour visualy identfies them and links them together. Matthew Fenton (contribs) 07:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

PS: This is used so please do not remove it without a concensous. Matthew Fenton (contribs) 07:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you suggesting we should seek concensus for reverting something you implemented today? Combination 11:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I didnt implement it today i implemented it 3 days ago. Matthew Fenton (contribs) 11:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, ok. Combination 11:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

If you want to remove it feel free to, i wont revert again. However it is used and does have a purpose as some articles have projects or templates associated with them and have "there" own colour. and thus this template associates the episode with the series. Matthew Fenton (contribs) 11:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Just a note that this tag shouldnt be removed as it is used succesfully in hundreds of articles. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 08:00, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

If you are going to do this, then please explain where it is neccessary and then implement it per my suggestion, using templates to store the colour values, so instead of colour = black you use colour = prison break colour. Just because you implemented this and set it up of a few series, doesn't make it worthwhile or necessary. ed g2s • talk 12:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Its purpose is association, and do not remove it as it is used in hundreds of articles, which you mess up when you remove it. Also, template colours are used and it doesnt have to be done "eds way" Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 12:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Also it has been in use for numerous weeks now with no problems. The only problem encounterd so far is your silly reverts. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 12:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, the ability to use hexs is there for ease, however some telvision series do use templated colours. (ref: stargate) Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 12:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

No pages have been "messed up", they merely look how they did before. Would you like to explain the significance of these colour associations, and what they add beyond the text on the page. ed g2s • talk 12:44, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Numerous projects use there own colours, using the colours in the tpl visually links them. Also some projects have there own templates which usual difference is only colour. It is better to have one template then 10 templates all doing the same thing. It also adds greater functionality. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 12:46, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

That would be well if it actually applied to individual television episodes. Why, for example, did you colour in the Prison Break episodes black? ed g2s • talk 12:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I didnt choose that colour, it was choosen by previou editors. And i assume its because black si associated with the "project" and the show. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 12:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

But there isn't actually a project, nor are there any other infoboxes for it to homogenise with. Basically you're just applying per-show colourings which will only lead to unnecessary colour clashes, reduced readability in some skins, and serve to benefit whatsoever. One assumes that if you navigate between that if you are browsing episodes of a given show, you will already be expecting the same show, without a colour bar to confirm it. If you navigate between shows, you will not recognise which show you are looking at by seeing the colour. ed g2s • talk 19:22, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

For an example see stargate wikiproject. In the O.C. we use orange colours in veronica mars green (ie: its template and sub pages follows suite and thus episodes should to) please do not mess up pages. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 20:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

This is used, do not remove without discussion! Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 20:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Just a note that i am writing a template now and so it would help if you dont revert so i can implement it succesfully over the span of a few hundred pages. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 20:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, Colour and TColour should be left there at least temp anyway. I do plan on implementing widescale template useage but it will take a short while.

Until then there serving a purpose (in hundreds of articles) and should be left, note hat some articles already use templates (ie. stargate eps.) Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 21:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Also read here (specificly the colour part) Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 21:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit warring

Please do not edit war over this template - if you need to arrive to some sort of consensus about what should be used, you may want to consider leaving a message in the village pump. If it continues, protection of the template until the some sort of consensus is reached may be used. Thanks. Cowman109^Talk 20:56, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see why Ed has a problem with the template, but either way i am trying to implement his ideas now. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 20:58, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Background Colour Tag

I just wanted to gather some concensus on the background colouring tag, now first of let me point out that it modifies the appearance in no way unless it is called and retains the default gray unless called.

Secondly some projects like the Stargate Wikiproject have there own colours (see: Template:SGColor) which is used in articles related to Stargate, also some articles use navigation templates with a primary colour on all pages related to the subject (IE: The O.C. or Veronica Mars) -- The colour chosen to be used has already been selected by participants actively editing those pages and thus if it has proven to cause no harm why would it in the infobox.

Thirdly if you can see the gray navbar fine why would you not be able to see black, blue or green etc? Wikipedia pages generally use an assortment of colours and so this cannot be really a basis for argument.

Fourth, Wikipedia is not paper, we do not have to worry about ink. Fifth, Wikipedia should be aesthetically pleasing as well (thus why we use the nice monobook skin vs. default?) Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 19:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Note that it was suggested that colours be called via a template, which is a good idea.. however the ability to still call it via manual hex is still good. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 19:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore note that on the other skins colours cause no harm or problems. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 19:40, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

I see no harm in this or bad, just the good. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 19:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support It would be silly not to have this, how Ed can call it major is well, beyond me.Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 12:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
See no harm in this. — ^`CRAZY`(IN)`SANE^` 19:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Copied from user talk:

No, applying colour to inline text when it is not necessary is Bad. What looks good on the monobook skin may not look good another skin, or visually impaired users who have their browsers set up with a specified colours for suitable contrast. Furthermore the reason we use a skin at all is to give pages a consistent look. If we start colouring pages by topic just for aesthetic reasons, we'll end up looking like myspace. This may be acceptable on users pages, but the article space is supposed to look professional. ed g2s • talk 23:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The colours chosen are generally already used, we use colour in other boxes/infoboxes. Now unless you wish to be reported for your disruptive behaviour i expect you to converse. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 08:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Also note that the appearance is changed no way unless the tag is called. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 08:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Support availability of tag. Default will work for most circumstances; ugly, unprofessional, or inconsistent usage within a TV series can be dealt with on a series-by-series level. Use of color to represent groupings (see, e.g., Google News) is not in itself unprofessional. Travisl 17:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Ugh. Please don't implement series-by-series coloring; it's not as useful as people seem to think for identification (since only those who work on a series are going to know what the colors mean), and it just ends up looking crappy in some skins and setups. This isn't useful in 100% of cases, and has the possibility to damage readability in a percentage of cases. Just no. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and as for the bolded votes, voting is useless and divisive. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Does nobody understand the fact that this is being used right now on hundreds of pages? Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 07:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I do understand that fact. Why are you edit warring using a revert tool to reinsert a controversial edit into a highly-transcluded template? Don't do that. Get consensus and then make your changes. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The current cocnensous SUPPORTS it (4/0), You dont seem to realise that it is high visibility and removing this messes up content on some pages. I will allow you to self revert if yu wish, and it is only controversial as ed tried to make it contriversial, there would be no edit war if you all discussed before mesing up hundreds of pages.. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 07:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Voting is useless and divisive, and your vote count seems to discount me, Combination, and ed g2s. Get support for the colors, then add them to the template. Revert with vandalism-reversion tools and I will block you, and recommend that your AWB/VP/whatever access be stripped. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

You are all in the support section, Ed has made comments (note he also removed the oppose sect.) and there seems to be support, and for making threats saying i cannot revert i intend to report that. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 07:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

How is "Ugh. Please don't implement series-by-series coloring" ambiguous? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Support Tag serves a purpose, removing causes disruption. Insanity13 08:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Support wow I can't believe there is actually controversy around this. There is absolutely no harm by including the option as most series have color schemes that make sense. If it doesn't then it can be looked at. Not to mention color often times makes items easier to read and stand out more! --Argash 09:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose -- I stand by A Man In Bl♟ck on this one. In general, I tend to trust a work like what he has done more than attempts to pass opposition off as support just because of a silly section head. --Chris Griswold 11:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Oppose I'm with A Man In Bl♟ck on this too. I definitely don't want tons of colors at wiki. Before the argument is repeated in a response to me, I fully understand that others are doing this, but that doesn't make it correct in doing so. I would tell users who are using various colors the same thing. Colors should be standard and any customizations should be on the user side only. MagnoliaSouth | Talk 23:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Part 2

One assumes that if you navigate between that if you are browsing episodes of a given show, you will already be expecting the same show, without a colour bar to confirm it. If you navigate between shows, you will not recognise which show you are looking at by seeing the colour.

This is why the colors aren't useful.

What looks good on the monobook skin may not look good another skin, or visually impaired users who have their browsers set up with a specified colours for suitable contrast. Furthermore the reason we use a skin at all is to give pages a consistent look. If we start colouring pages by topic just for aesthetic reasons, we'll end up looking like myspace.

This is why the color are harmful.

Colors are harmful and not useful. Adding them to this template is a net negative. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying we should just use black and white.. *sigh* Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 12:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think we should leave it to the style sheets. If you'd like white-on-black or bright orange or whatever (both of which have been used in unfortunate infoboxes), you can edit your monobook instead of inflicting it on the wiki at large. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I dissagree many shows color code their seasons and if your a regular reader of a particular show then you become accostomed to that shows color scheme and can identify a particular episodes season just by it's color. Seriously there is no reason NOT to include the option for color and if you continuously revert to the version without that option all that will happen is the shows that want color will make their own custom templates. Is that what you want one template per show? -- Argash | talk | contribs 12:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think users can be trusted just to identify particular episodes of a particular show by the first sentence of the article or the first line of the infobox. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure they can but your not listening. Some shows like their color schemes (Stargate and The Simpsons come to mind. If the default template can't support that color scheme then they will just make their own template. By denying this very simply option that doesn't have to be used you could very well end up with hundreds of extranious templates.

BTW by my count its currently 6-3 in favor of the color option. -- Argash | talk | contribs 12:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Good thing it's not a vote. I think it's ridiculous that Wikiprojects for various TV series are declaring that they have "their" colors, and anything to nip that nonsense in the bud is good. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

What if you use a screenreader? Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 12:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

...then you can't see the color anyway. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Pretty wrong really, you may use a screenreader if your partialy blind (ie: a blur) so you can make out colours but not text.. thus its more efficent to also offer colours. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 12:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly! One of the reasons why i added optional colouring so that we [wikipedia] didnt have to have hundreds of episode templates, if we can have one instead of 10 it is much better! Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 12:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Why do we need ten different colors? Unified infoboxes good, unified apperances even better. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Way to be a conformist! Seriously thats your reason for being against a color option? -- Argash | talk | contribs 12:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

...you're accusing me of being a conformist for suggesting that a standardized infobox have standardized colors? Um. Kay.

My argument is up the page, with that "not useful" and "harmful" bit. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of a standardised template is so that there is an easy way to enter and display standard information that does not mean that there has to be a standard color scheme. -- Argash | talk | contribs 12:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

True, you caught me conflating a standard template with standard appearance (which could vary greatly if there were a productive purpose). There still isn't a productive purpose, however. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes there is and you've been told them [numerous times] so dont dismiss them. thanks. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 13:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Part 3

This is why the colors aren't useful.

This is why the color are harmful.

These points remain unaddressed.

It has been argued that such-and-such Wikiproject is unwilling to use this unified template without a color variable. I can understand the difficulty of getting people to adopy a unified infobox (being a bit of a template wonk at times myself); can you point me to an example of this reticence? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

What are you going on about? One of the whole points of teh adition of a optional condition was so that all these shows did not have to use differnt templates and so they could use THIS ONE! Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 13:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Why do they need a color variable to use this template? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

You just aint listening are ya? (numerous (repated) reasons below)

Association.
Aesthetics
Helps the disabled
That projects colour scheme should not be limited when it doesnt have to be.
Colour shuld be used, wikipedia is not paper.
Colour is pleasing.
Wikipedia shouldnt aim to be bland.
If you can see a gray infobox why would you not be able to see a blue infobox?
The colours choen are generally already used in associated projects/artcles/templates etc

Need i write more? Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 13:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The title covers association.
Most of the color schemes were plug-ugly. (White text on black? Ugh!)
How does it help the disabled?
Is there a project that has complained? Where?
Color shouldn't be used for color's sake. This is Wikipedia, not Myspace. Color should be used when it serves a productive, not merely aesthetic use.
Wikipedia shouldn't aim to make readers blind.
Blue is fine. Let's pick a color and stick with it. I don't care what color, as long as it's low-key.
Is there a project that has complained? Where?

I'd appreciate it if you'd write more, to address these answers. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not even going to justify wasting my time to replying as your answers are laughable, since when was wikipedia a blog? Since when did it make them blind. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 13:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

If you aren't willing to discuss your changes, I wouldn't expect to find wide consensus supporting them. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Well I know that Stargate makes use of the color option (well it did until you reverted it). As for the two points you say are unresolved:

many shows color code their seasons and if your a regular reader of a particular show then you become accostomed to that shows color scheme and can identify a particular episodes season just by it's color
lynx is not the standard browser of choice these days, it will seriously not adversly affect more than a miniscule ammount of readers to implement a color option. If a color scheme that is hard to read gets implemented (say something hard to read for those who are colorblind, then im sure someone will be quick to point it out and fix it. -- Argash | talk | contribs 13:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Is the Stargate project particularly unwilling to accept a neutral color? Can you link me to this discussion?

Again, I've answered the point of identifying by color; the name of the series is right there up top, as well as in the lead. Illiterates won't be using Wikipedia. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, you may wish to be civil and stop making attacks. they may be aprt blind. Furthermore the stargate project uses a neutral colour already (#7F8EB7) and this is the concensous of the many of which colour should be used. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 13:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Who was I attacking? These articles are already cut off from anyone who lacks the visual or English reading ability to understand the titles; the colors serve no purpose. What disability are we serving here? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Some disabled people use "readers" (i know a child did at my old school, he would hoover text and it would be spoken to him) if you can see colours you can associate, thus its also a time saver. PS: You atatcked the "illiterate" Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 13:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't attack them, merely noted that anyone who isn't able to understand the first thing said in any article is unlikely to be able to gain any use from Wikipedia. Even someone using a reader is going to hear the series name in the first sentence, no matter what. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Why would they? they wouldnt have to listen to it if they already knew what it was. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 13:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Why would they know what the article is about in the first place without hearing a single word of it? This is a silly argument; get someone who knows something about usability for the disabled in here if you want to continue it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely with A Man In Black's issue with colours, as included at the top of this section. Thanks/wangi 14:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Part 4

I haven't been keeping up with the stargate project much myself lately I just know they make use of it, couldn't point you to a specific discussion though. I'm leading up the charge for the Entourage project and I want to make use of colors there I can tell you that. I did just dig up another template that is almost an exact copy and does have the color option so if your going to piss in moan about it I guess we'll just switch over to that template. -- Argash | talk | contribs 13:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I also diagree with the use of series-specific colored infoboxes. This is not Skittlepedia, nor is it myspace or tvtome or any other place. The reasons to keep a consistent look have already been listed above (professionalism, consistency, special needs readers). Color schemes, whether templated or not, should not be customized according to the whims of the editors who work on particular series, and if this has already happened on some projects, it needs to be stopped, not encouraged or expanded. Thatcher131 (talk) 13:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but have you taken a look at Main Page recently? -- Argash | talk | contribs 14:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The special needs argument is FOR colours! Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 13:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

How will they know what color to look for if there's not a consistent color? --Interiot 13:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Huh? There generly is i believe, examples: a purple/blue for stargate, black for prison break, green for veronica mars, orange for The O.C., orangey/gray for entourage. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 14:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps my comment got lost above, but the concern seems to be that color will make Wikipedia into SkittleSpace. As I said before, "ugly, unprofessional, or inconsistent usage within a TV series can be dealt with on a series-by-series level." Argash makes a great point that the Main Page is already skittle-riffic.

Speaking as someone who has worked in forms design (paper and electronic) for almost ten years, I'm one of the last people to suggest that people use color for the sake of using color. But quality, judicious use of color can add additional meaning (e.g., which show, which season, which character). Granted, the color-blind won't be able to get that meaning, so it does need to be included elsewhere textually, and if a page starts to look like a pumpkin patch of black and orange steps should be taken to professionalize it, but making ugly pages is not the proposal under consideration.

Would those who object to the inclusion of the color tag in the Television episode infobox also object to the ability to change font color elsewhere on the page? It's permitted, you know. What about font size? Any page can be made to look ugly. It's our responsibility -- as editors -- to clean it up when it does. Travisl 20:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, yes. Anyone using font tags to make colored text in the body is likely to be reverted as soon as someone with some sense happens by. Let's not be encouraging that sort of silliness by giving people additional tools to make the infobox ugly. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Formatting issues:

Formatting issues such as font size, blank space and color are issues for the Wikipedia site-wide style sheet and should not be dealt with in articles except in special cases. If you absolutely must specify a font size, use a relative size, that is, font-size: 80%; not an absolute size, for example, font-size: 8pt. It is also almost never a good idea to use other style changes, such as font family or color. Typically, the usage of custom font styles will

reduce consistency - the text will no longer look uniform with typical text;

reduce usability - it will likely be impossible for people with custom stylesheets (for accessibility reasons, for example) to override it, and it might clash with a different skin as well as bother people with color blindness;

increase arguments - there is the possibility of other Wikipedians disagreeing with choice of font style and starting a debate about it for aesthetic purposes.

For such reasons, it is typically not good practice to apply inline CSS for font attributes in articles.

Something to not dismiss lightly. Thanks/wangi 13:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You are for getting teh default colour isnt defined in the css so that means we either have colour or we dont. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 13:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The only solution is to not use colours at ALL in ANYTHING, that means we use black or white.. also the MediaWiki CSS needs to be changed to remove blue backgrounds.. the logo uses gray as well, problem? Also powerd by has some yellow. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 13:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

No, you specify colours and background within the CSS, this lets those with issues (whatever they may be) to ignore those settings by using their own (or no) stylesheet. Have a read of Cascading Style Sheets and Web accessibility. Thanks/wangi 15:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Your wrong the current bar is a hardcoded hex vallue, this deosnt allow you to change the colour. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 15:14, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Part 5

By my count currently 6 support backgrounds and 3 oppose, hence a majority support, thus i will readd it later today if there are no more opinions to be cast as the talk seems to have died now. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 08:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

wangi, ed g2s, Combination, myself, Thacher13, freakofnuture, and ChrisGriswold are seven users. Crazy, Insanity (who has been accused of being a 3RR-avoiding sock), Travis, yourself, and Argash are five users at best. Even if this were a vote, you wouldn't have a majority. Now stop declaring that you've "won" an ongoing discussion and please confine your grandstanding to the talk page. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 09:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Combination and and whoever FreakOFN have not voiced opinions here? MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 09:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Combination expressed an opinion waaay up the page. First one to do so after ed g2s did. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 09:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

"Are you suggesting we should seek concensus for reverting something you implemented today?" is not an opinion. If you assume it is you must be desperate for opposition. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 09:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I was just going by Combination's revert. I suppose we should probably ask Combination.

That said, this isn't a vote, and even in the unlikely event that it was, it wouldn't be decided. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 10:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I never said it was a vote, thus why i said i'm trying to gather concensous. The current concensous however is support. Thus why i will re implement the var. soon or allow annother editor to do it. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 10:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, Also looking thru your contribs it seems you make edits to templates without proposing them first.. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 10:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

You may want to browse the archives of WT:CVG; template talk pages are usually a bad place to propose changes. The problem is not the implementing without checking first; as long as you know exactly what you're doing (and you're clearly not incompetant when it comes to templates), that's fine. The problem is bulling ahead when there's significant opposition, and you've reverted no less than five experienced editors who all think this is a bad idea. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 10:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I support the background color option. It adds some color to the page where it's lacking and can have meaning to the TV show it's for. In the case of Veronica Mars, which I frequently edit, the color used is one of the two colors from the school that the main characters went to in the first and second season of the show. Having the same color on the character pages and episode pages make it known that the page has to do with the show it corresponds to. It also makes those parts noticeable, like the character name and episode name on those pages. It makes the pages more interesting to look at rather than ones without a background. HuskersRule 10:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Where there is nothing intrinsically wrong in seeking views, I'm concerned about representativeness. [1] The JPS^{talk to me} 10:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Views needed to be gatherd as this page was begining to die so i messaged a few editors at random who i have seen edit pages on my watchlist in the past day, also.. i sent everybody the same message. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 10:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I see you sent four people the same message, but my problem is the selction of which four. I suggest using a highly visibly project such as Wikipedia:WikiProject Television would be a better wat to get a diverse range of opinions. This would include those from experienced editors rather than those with only a handful of edits and who only edit pages about The O.C. and the like. The JPS^{talk to me} 10:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

You've already messaged them i believe and they dont seem to be interested, the best aproach may be at the project list of episodes. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 10:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

A general TV one, you mean? I don't think a specific programme one would be advantageous for obtaining a neutral perspective. The JPS^{talk to me} 10:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Augh. MF added hard-coded color tags to all of the television project infoboxes, apparently on the suggestion of an anon. This happened on July 23, and seems to have gone completely unnoticed save for the motly single-topic editors who make articles for single episodes of television shows. This singularly bad idea (just look at Prison Break) isn't limited to episode articles. I think a full topic RFC may be in order. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 11:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Other affected templates include {{Infobox character}} and {{Infobox Television}}. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 11:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

To me it just seems your nit picking now. Because its pretty clear to me the support is greater then the oppose. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 11:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

And {{Infobox actor}} and {{Infobox Celebrity}}. *sigh* - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 11:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree. I can understand the point about consistency within a series, but the main TV infobox should be consistent amoungst TV shows. There also seems to be a very familar discussion here. The JPS^{talk to me} 11:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Support. If this is regarding having specialized colors for each show, then I support it as it helps but if this is about something else, can someone let me know?

Faris b 00:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Summary, possible solution?

(Note: For those intrested backgrounds have been avilable on Infobox Album for sometime now (Ed 2gs also edited this template a few times)[2])

Regarding "{{Infobox Celebrity}}" -- I implemented bakground colouring mainly for femenine and masculine colours (pink for girls, blue for boys.. you get the picture) now this has been implemented on some pages and recentley i have discoverd a better way to implement this without hardcoding hex values into each bio.. this can be done via advanced template markup and gender.. the same can be done for infobox celebrity.

Now.. Regarding this template.. you may wish to see here it uses advanced markup to store each shows colour and is called like: {Show Colours|Veronica Mars}.. the same should also be impletedmented on template charcter as well.. this avoids hardcoding hex values all over the place and also offers ease and stores the value in one place. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 09:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so what are we going to do? Having a quick look it does seem support out weighs oppose. So what happens now, can i reimplement the tag? MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 14:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

So, any objections then? MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 16:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

If theres no more opinions i will probably re-implement in 24 to 48 hours. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 17:06, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

On the basis that voting is evil, and looking at the qualatative views, there have been more convincing arguments not to implement. Please do not implement. The JPS^{talk to me} 18:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact that someones asked me not to before i do it is good enough for me not to. I would however like to know how to conclude this and gather concensous? MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 18:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It's been three days now.. seems like nobody is interested, so what happens now :-\? MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 10:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Nothing, I guess... Thanks/wangi 11:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Well theres still seems more support so something i guess. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 11:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

So..? Is it safe to readd the opt. var now? (PS: Note that there are lots of infoboxes using background colouring, 2 articles which are FA have used a background colour tag this week!) MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 22:13, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

If there are no more support/oppose i will readd it tommorow! MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 22:13, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

When wangi says "Nothing, I guess," isn't he implying that it shouldn't be readded? The JPS^{talk to me} 09:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

He has already stated his opinion further up. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 09:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, when I say "nothing, I guess" I am implying it shouldn't be re-added. There is no consensus to add it, nor is there any great reason to do so. The sun will still shine tomorrow without background colours... Thanks/wangi 09:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Why do you repeat your self? Repeating doesnt make your position any stronger. Either way im sick of even bothering so the easiest way is to return all those shows who previously didnt use this template back to there originals as i cant be botherd to waste my time anymore. Furthering on who intends to remove the tag from 500 odd pages? MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 09:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Come on, I've repeated myself at each point because you see fit to push the issue - you keep saying you're going to re-add the feature, when there's no clear consenus to do so. There is no need to revert usage of this standardised template. /wangi 09:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

You know i did'nt see you complaining over Edwards changes? or years ago when the design was changed totally.. oh look in fact Edward did it him self. Also if you look you will see support out weighs the support. The opposers have yet to provide one valid reason as why they oppose. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 09:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to continue this, clearly many good reasons against the implementation have been offered above and other ways to implement it. To discount those reasons as invalid shows your lack of respect in the opinion of others. Thanks/wangi 09:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh look! I my self have offered other ways to implement it! Oha and look again! No one is interested. (PS: Why do you keep thanking me :\?) MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 09:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Beacause I'm a polite sort of guy. Ta/wangi 09:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Well you dont seem to be respecing my wishes to implement these changes so we can have one template rather then five! MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 10:05, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

PS: BGColour tags have been used in several FAs this week. If those articles are deemed to be of a good quality and there using bcolour what is wrong with these articles? thanks/MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 20:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

You know its funny how no one cares for the recent edit that wasnt suggested here? thanks/MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 06:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

So; Getting kind of bored, its pretty obvious no one is truly interested? thanks/MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 13:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You haven't added to your reasons of why this should be used at all. Referencing other pages that use them does not make it a good idea. Featured article != perfect article. ed g2s • talk 14:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you a) need to read the threads as while we've listed like 10+ reasons you can only seem to come up with one hard and silly reason. b) stop making assumptions; where did i say there perfect? c) looking at your contribs i see you removed lots of colour, yet i dont see you *asking*? thanks/MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 14:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

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