Wikipedia talk:Independent sources

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Contents 1 Thoughts, improvements suggestions? 2 Two Independent Sources 3 Meaning of independence 4 Topic = Source

[edit] Thoughts, improvements suggestions?

[edit] Two Independent Sources

As it stands, this proposal does little beyond the already existing Verifiability policy that articles should rely on credible, third-party sources.

I would go one step further, by making it say "Any article on a topic is required to cite at least two reliable sources, independent ..." This seems to be a modest expectation of minimum encyclopedic standards. --SteveMcCluskey 22:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

There are certainly exceptions to this. When a particular reference is generally considered the key authority on a particular subject, I see no need for a second one. Consider the article LR parser - the reference on that article (Aho, Sethi & Ullman) is so frequently-referenced that any other source on the subject may as well not exist, because nobody who knows about the topic would recommend anything but that one book. It covers the subject in as much depth as anyone reading an encyclopedia article on the subject would realistically want. It is accessible to anyone who is able to understand the article. Copies of the book are widely available, and it is unlikely to go out-of-print any time soon as it is a standard undergraduate textbook in almost every computer science degree course in the English-speaking world. What more could a second reference add? JulesH 16:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I like this essay - it explains the rationale behind WP:V very well. While I personally think that multiple independent sources are an excellent idea (it has become a de-facto standard in notability guideline pages, for example), there seems to be some opposition to the idea. Perhaps saying that multiple sources are necessary when using only one introduces the possibility of a non-neutral point of view in the article? Examples like JulesH's above probably wouldn't fall under this, but I can think of a few examples where one independent source just isn't enough. Ziggurat 03:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of independence

Independence means much more than this. The sources must be independent of each other, not just the subject. If a journalist publishes an investigative report on some scandal, the several other newspapers that report on the issue but do not independently investigate and verify the issue themselves do not count as independent sources. It all rests on one investigation, one newspaper and is not sufficient for Wikipedia. Also, isn't this redundant with Verifiability? —Centrx→talk • 22:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

• No, sadly it isn't. Too many people think verifiability allows an article to be written using one primary source. Still, this is an essay, I don't see what harm it does. Feel free to edit it to address any concerns you have. Steve block Talk 12:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Topic = Source

This essay seems to use topic as a synonym for source. It seems to only concern itself with cases where the topic is a publication, such as a book or movie. Suppose the topic is not a publication, though. If the topic were algebra, how would I find a source that describes algebra "from the outside"? --Gerry Ashton 17:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

• Eh? Don't understand you at all. It doesn't use topic as a synonym for source at all. It uses topic to mean the topic of an article. I'll try and make that clearer. Not sure what you are trying to address with your point about algebra. Steve block Talk 18:00, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
• Actually, it's already explained what a topic is: Any article on a topic. As to algebra, not sure how an article could use algebra as the sole source, but if you think it could, well this essay would certainly apply there too as much as it applies anywhere else. Steve block Talk 18:03, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me be more specific. The essay says "Any article on a topic is required to cite a reliable source independent of the topic itself...." OK, suppose the topic is algebra. That is, I'm writing an article about algebra. What does it mean to say that a source is independent of algebra? That makes no sense.

Now if the topic were the TV series Heros, the statement "Any article on Heros is required to cite a reliable source independent of Heros" makes perfect sense; when writing such an article I should not just write about what I saw while watching the show, I should also find reviews from reliable sources that are not affiliated with anyone who had a hand in creating or broadcasting Heros. That is why I say the essay uses topic as a synonym for source; the essay only makes sense if the topic is a publication. --Gerry Ashton 18:20, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Still don't follow you. It doesn't just work for publications. It works for people. "Any article on Tom Cruise is required to cite a reliable source independent of Tom Cruise" It works for algebra. I'd say we should source textbooks about algebra, rather than algebra itself for an article. An article regarding a-b=a+(-b) would require a source outside of it, describing it. HTH. Steve block Talk 18:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

People, publications, and organizations can be sources. We understand what it means to be independent of a person, organization, or publication. The independent source didn't just copy or paraphrase the first source, doesn't get paid by the first source, etc. But an algebra textbook can't be independent of algebra; how can you write an algebra textbook without using algebra? Now, a book about Tom Cruise would probably be independent of algebra, but it wouldn't be much use in writing an article about algebra. --Gerry Ashton 18:48, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Um, why on earth would you use a book about Tom Cruise in an article on algebra? I'm confused. Is the book on algebra written by someone who is describing it? If so, I can't see the problem. That's an independent source. Steve block Talk 19:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

(unindent)Ok, lets start again. I decide to write a Wikipedia article about the topic algebra. Just the general mathematical ideas that together form the topic of algebra. I should be able to go into your essay and substitute algebra for topic and the guideline should still make sense. So I take the statement

Any article on a topic is required to cite a reliable source independent of the topic itself...

I substitute algebra for topic and I get

Any article on algebra is required to cite a reliable source independent of algebra itself...

So what does it mean for a source to be independent of algebra? --User:Gerry Ashton 11 October 2006 (UTC)

• Um, I'm still not clear here. Perhaps you are taking the sentence and the essay out of context? Steve block Talk 15:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

• • The essay seems to presume that the topic is a person, a group of people, or a publication (which of course are authored by a person or group). In this case, the word "independent" means something; it would be other people, or their publications, who are not subject to undue influence by the topic person or topic group. But some subjects have nothing to do with any particular person or group, such as algebra. These topics do not require independent sources because there is no person or group to be independent from. --Gerry Ashton 18:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Gerry, I was initially impatient with this line of questioning, and thought you were being pedantic. I was going to lecture you about not requiring human language to work with the precision of logical symbolism (as in algebra). Then it occurred to me that this essay is likely to be resorted to by people in the midst of controversy, and some are likely to try to twist this article so as to support an agenda. The point you've identified might serve as a loophole in that case, exploitable to prolong circular argument and preserve a POV edit.

Example: Suppose I'm a creationist seeking to impose my POV on an article on the theory of evolution. I resort to this article, arguing that because the subject is the origins of genus Homo, and all scientific scholarship on this article is produced by members of the genus, the only "independent" source on this topic is divine revelation. It's a sophistic, dishonest argument, but could be sustained for a time -- which is the whole point: to wear down editors who abide by the 5 Pillars and thus keep their bias on display.

So you've won me over. I support adding some precision to this discussion. Have any ideas? -- Alarob 23:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest clarifying along these lines:

• When the topic of an article is a person or organization, information reported as fact (which should be the bulk of the article) should be derived from reliable sources which have gathered information by some means other than merely collecting the statements and representations of the subject of the article. Quotes and statements from the subject of the article are appropriate to add detail or support to general coverage, especially when describing the opinions of the subject (such as a reaction to something, or how they prefer to be identified).
• When the topic of an article is an artifact or entity with informational content, such as a book or a scientific theory, both dependent and independent sources are appropriate. The article should probably summarize the intellectual content, using the subject itself as a primary source in the case of something like a book, or likely using authoritative secondary sources in the case of a collectively created entity like a scientific theory. But independent sources must also be brought to bear. What is the social and intellectual context? How is the entity perceived (controversially, as a factual depiction of the universe, as a masterful work of fiction, as part of a larger theory, etc.)? In some cases, there are disputes over the interpretation of the subject of the article, making its use as a primary source problematic. For instance, theological disputes over the meaning of various verses in the Christian Bible have resulted in some groups taking positions that apparently contradict the literal meaning of the words being interpreted. Independent context is also critical to understanding parody and allegory.
• Many articles concern topics that have no direct intellectual content. For instance, one cannot quote the planet Neptune, and the typical rock has very little to say about its history. In these cases the subject of the article cannot be used as a source, so "independence" of sourcing from the subject of the article is not a concern.

I would also either change the title of the essay to something like "Independence from subject" or add a section to address the meaning "independence of sources from each other" which is the common meaning covered on our actual article on independent sources. -- Beland 07:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)