Talk:Incompleteness of quantum physics

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This article is badly named, and will lead to problems of its own. I would like to note that I wasn't the source of that name. If this article is going to exist it should be called Completeness of quantum mechanics (or Is quantum mechanics complete?). The should say what completeness means, why the question is asked and arguments for and against. --CSTAR 04:33, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Excellent idea! I don't like the current title either. It was used only because that was preliminary the consensus of the discussion. But I don't see why we can't change it. Which of the two above do you prefer? I slightly prefer Completeness of quantum mechanics or perhaps Completeness issues in quantum mechanics because it is not typical for an article title to be a question.--Carl Hewitt 04:48, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I renamed it Incompleteness of quantum physics.--Carl Hewitt 08:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fuchs

Fuchs, Fuchs, Fuchs. He's a smart guy, but there's a lot of modern quotes from this topic from other people as well. I'll do it when I have time. Dave Kielpinski 06:25, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Dave, That would be great! Also, if you provide a couple of references, I would be willing to help. Regards, --Carl Hewitt 06:41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Relational quantum physics

I would like to see this article further developed to report on the following published results:

• Carlo Rovelli "Relational quantum mechanics” International Journal of Theoretical Physics 35 1637-1678. 1996.
• Federico Laudisa and Carlo Rovelli. "Relational Quantum Mechanics" The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2005 Edition).

What do you think? Regards, --Carl Hewitt 06:27, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Since no one objected, I added a section on Relational Quantum Physics.

Your questions, comments, suggestions, and improvements are appreciated.

Thanks, --Carl Hewitt 03:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I have no objection, but the passage is somewhat abrupt. I'm not sure why you want to put it in. Though it is correct to say that "incompleteness" as asserted in the intro, which is now the conventional view is not necessarilly the final view of the matter; this revisionism is possible without violating "Bell's theorem" or the uncertainty principle. For example if we consider infinite sequences of observables

P_i,Q_i

where the value of each infinite sequence is a distribution on R (as opposed to a single value), then with some ergodicity assumption on how the sampling of P and Q occurs, the values of P and Q (in this case probability distributions on R) are determined. This is one of many "outs" of non-determinism. The relational theory (what little I know of it) I suppose is trying to achieve the same thing.--CSTAR 04:10, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Hello CSTAR,

I agree that the passage is somewhat abrupt. Would you like to see it expanded?

Regards, --Carl Hewitt 04:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Let me think about this. ALso note that Everett's relative state interpretation was one of the earliest "relational interpretations". But just to be clear, I am not saying that your edits are objectionable. --CSTAR 06:22, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incompleteness versus indeterminacy

I'm far from an expert on this stuff, at the very least I find the use of the term "incomplete" confusing. It seems that the article is using it in two different ways. I humbly suggest that the term incomplete be used as it was in the EPR paper, to mean that QM does not describe all the knowable properties and indeterminacy to mean that these properties are unknowable.

Again, not an expert, but I really think that this sentence "Although Einstein was one of the first to formulate the necessary incompleteness of quantum physics, he never fully accepted it." is confused.

-- Isaac Vetter

Re: indeterminacy to mean that these properties are unknowable. That's certainly not my understanding of indeterminacy. See quantum indeterminacy for instance. --CSTAR 03:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)