Talk:IMSCF Syndrome

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Purpose of this article 2 Citation needed 3 Deletion 4 References 5 Online Encyclopedia 6 They are not Factual 7 Consider genetic testing via AncestryByDNA.com 8 Chinese Ancestry 9 Weasel words 10 Treated differently 11 Recent revert 12 We All Know This Is True 13 WE ARE NOT PACIFIC ISLANDERS (e.g. Hawaiian, Samoan) 14 Tags 15 This Syndrome Article is Useless and Pathetic and Should be Deleted as soon as possible 16 Please stop with the redundancies and weasel word 17 Need to provide more Facts

[edit] Purpose of this article

What's your purpose on writing this? To DEGRADE Filipinos?

[edit] Citation needed

I have indicated the first sentence to cite sources. How do we know it is a phenomenon? Is the majority of overseas Filipinos has this syndrome? Is there an actual study from reliable sources regarding this supposed phenomenon? Please cite reliable sources. Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's official policy. Take note also the comments by other users below regarding the factual accuracy of this article. --Jojit fb 06:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Just like Neils Bohr said, "no phenomenon is a phenomenon until it is an observed phenomenon." --Jojit fb 06:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Please don't just cite opinion columns. Please give a reputable unbiased scientific study that many ethnic Filipinos have IMSCF syndrome. Please read Wikipedia's official policy regarding verifiability and original research. --Jojit fb 02:18, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion

According to the VfD, this page should have been deleted. What happened? Votes_for_deletion/IMSCF_Syndrome

Even it was deleted, it can be re-created. To avoid edit wars, we can cleanup this article and make it to have a NPOV. --Jojit fb 02:12, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] References

Where did the author of this article researched this? Was there a random sample of Filipinos in North America, Australia or Europe that was used and has exhibited the "IMSCF Syndrome?"

Seems to me that this is just an opinion on Filipino behaviour.

"Where did the author of this article researched this?"

Ah, it's called the CENSUS. From various countries one might add. And before you smart-off with "was there a random sample?"... Yes, there has been research into this particular topic.

Just to quote one reputable goverment source, in the last Australian census conducted in the year 2001, of all Australians who declared themselves as Spanish in ancestry, 9% were born in the Philippines! Can you figure that? Filipinos were the highest nationality reporting Spanish ancestry among Australians, higher than Hispanic Australians who come from Spanish-populated countries like Argentina, Uruguay, Chile and the rest of Latin America for that matter. Close by were Chileans, whom constituted another 9% who said they were of Spanish ancestry, 5% from Uruguay and, 4% from Salvadoreans, 4% from Argentinas, 2% from Peruvians, etc. Apparently there are more Filipino Australians of Spanish blood (or at least they think they are) than there are from the nations of Hispanic America?

Taking into account all members of the strong Filipino Australian community, of all people who declared they were Filipinos, 1 in 10 (10:100 or 10%) claimed their ancestry to be Spanish. Yet, if according to Filipino goverment historical documents and census, present and past, the true numbers of Filipinos who are of Spanish ancestry (partial Spanish ancestry at most) is only 1 in every 100 (1:100 or 1%) then that means that Filipinos falsely claiming Spanish ancestry is 1000% higher than the real numbers. 10 out of 100 Filipino Australians declared themselves as Spanish, of these 10, 9 have no such ancestry. The Australian census also included a footnote to this figure, cuationing that it is a trend for many of them to include their former colonial power among their ancestry without having such ancestry.

Also, do note "IMSCF Syndrome" is not a recent nomenclature for this phenomenon among Filipinos. The article shoudln't be dismissed as an attempt to degrade anyone, nor should it be dismissed as racist rant. The term was infact coined by newly arrived immigrant Filipinos to western countries upon seeing so many earlier established Filipinos engaging in this ethnic forgery. Who better than Filipinos would have an understanding of Filipino mentality? And if they invented the term to describe what they saw amongst other Filipinos, I doubt there is racist intent behind it.

Furthermore, the incidence of this peculiar phenomenon is much higher in places like the USA (especially Hawai'i) than in the example of Australia given above. Yet, one must realise that even with the Australian example, the number of those "afflicted" by IMSCF Syndrome is still quite high, despite being a country where expat Filipinos are less likely to forge their ethnicity.

I invite you to do a search on the internet looking up IMSCF Sydnrome. All the articles you'll find are written by Filipinos themselves.

"Seems to me that this is just an opinion on Filipino behaviour."

Yes, I, much like everyone else have opinions. And I have also seen this Filipino social behavioural pattern. But the article is not based on it. If it were up to me I would actually say that the incidence is much higher, but I can't say so seeing that I haven't the hard figures to prove any more than what I have already stated. Al-Andalus 00:34, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have been browsing the 2001 Census Data of Australia [1] [2] by the Australian Bureau of Statistics and I can't really find anything about what you said. I have seen information in that website about "ANCESTRY BY BIRTHPLACE OF PARENTS" and "BIRTHPLACE (COUNTRIES) BY SEX" but Spain is not listed in there and they (Spaniards) are either bulked in "born elsewhere overseas" or "other North-West European". There is really no cross tabulation data which shows that how many Australians with Spanish ancestry were born in the Philippines. I think the Australian Census does not concern about this kind of statistics. Probably a private research firm in Australia would conduct a survey regarding that type of data. Please take note also the difference between sampling and census. Census is the process of obtaining information about every member of a population while sampling is only obtained from a subset of a population. So, Al-Andalus, it seems that what you stated comes from a secondary source that quotes the Australian Bureau of Census? Is it? If that is the case then your source is not reliable because the Australian Census does not provide that kind of data otherwise you are just inventing things. Please cite reliable sources --Jojit fb 03:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Online Encyclopedia

This is an ONLINE ENCYCLOPEDIA. You should not mix your opinion on Filipino behavior with the facts. In fact, this IMSCF is merely a STEREOTYPICAL opinion

As a Philippine born naturalized US citizen, I actually agree with the statements of this article. You see it all the time especially among young Filipino-Americans. When confronted about it, they deny any colonial type mentality when it's very obvious. they do. But does that mean I agree with the inclusion of this article on Wiki? No. Encyclopedias should present verifiable facts. While I agree with it, it's only my opinion. Opinions don't belong in articles. As for any references? It seems like the references cited are being nit-picked out so that this article stays. --† Ðy§ep§ion † ^{Speak your mind} 21:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed, though, that the references here are merely articles presenting opinions rather than facts.

[edit] They are not Factual

Google hits aren't proof that they are FACTUAL. No scientific studies have been conducted. And the articles found on the internet are ALL THE SAME (aside from hits from discussion boards). The said IMSCF Syndrome is more of an OPINION. It can only be considered if there are THOROUGH studies conducted by EXPERTS, particularly by PSYCHOLOGISTS. Bear in mind that this is an ENCYCLOPEDIA.

Should we, then, get rid of the articles about religion? I'm a Christian, but I'd like to point out that no scientific studies have proved the existence of God or that Jesus Christ was the son of God. Should we go and delete those articles? And let's delete the articles about Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Jainism, Sikhism, Buddhism, et. al. while we're at it.

As for this article in question. I admit that this article could be rewritten to have a less harsher tone. But, this IMSCF does happen and a large number of Filipinos don't have Spanish blood. So where are these Filipinos getting their Spanish blood, anyway? I've done an informal study on hundreds of baptismal records for in Cebu, Camarines Norte, Camarines Sur, and Batangas for the 19th century. VERY rarely did I run into filipinos or españoles as the race of the child. Filipinos had a different meaning back then; it meant Spaniards born in the Philippines. All I saw were indios - the people indigenous to the Philippines such as Tagalogs, Cebuanos, Bikolanos, etc.

--Chris 16:35, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This article speaks of as if ALL Filipinos claim to have Spanish blood when they have not. The term is FILIPINOS, not FILIPINO - AMERICANS or so what. This is generalization. I'm sure you know that RAPES were more common than INTERMARRIAGES. Many are illegetimate and illegitamate children aren't allowed for baptism during those days. Take for example Dona Teodora (Mother of Rizal). It has been found out that she has NO baptismal certificate, but the records were complete and it is only her certificate that does not exist. She may have been raised as a Christian, but not baptized. Of course, there would be a lot of Mestizos who were recorded as INDIOS and who grew up with their mothers. This speaks as if the Ayalas, Sorianos, Zobels, Ortigas are the only people in the Philippines who have Spanish blood. There are some who belong to the common people, too. It is very impossible that 95% of Filipinos are unmixed. It seems that more than a quarter of the population have Filipinized Chinese Surnames(including Dizon, Sison, Tuazon, Lacson..) which is an indication of Chinese Ancestry. Pretty sure that the Spaniards have not included Chinese surnames in the Catalog of Surnames. Laloy 22:22, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Look at what the article says: It is most common among Filipinos. It does not say "EVERY DAMN FILIPINO IN THE WESTERN WORLD HAS IMSCF SYNDROME." This the truth. And I know it hurts, but it happens a lot.

5% of 80 million Filipinos is 4 million. Isn't that enough? --Chris 03:58, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"It is most common among Filipinos"

it's still a GENERALIZATION. I read your profile and it seems that you're one of those who have that IMSCF Syndrome. Why don't you just say you're Filipino, since your almost full filipino? Mexicans don't go saying. I'm Aztec with spanish ancestry. you're definitely one of them

[edit] Consider genetic testing via AncestryByDNA.com

This message was originally posted on http://www.voy.com/50000/141.html 06/26/04 3:52pm PDT. The discussion topic was titled, "IMSCF Syndrome ("I'm Spanish-Chinese-Filipino" Syndrome) in America" and provides an excellent solution to many of the issues brought forth in this webpage regarding accurate determination of race and ethnicity in the Philippines (or those of Filipino descent living elsewhere) .....

The AncestryByDNA.com genetic test should provide a more definitive answer regarding the genetic racial makeup of an individual. Recent advances in genetic testing have put the answer to questions/claims like those made on this website (e.g., I'm Filipino, Chinese, and Spanish, etc.). Whether your goal is to assist in validating your true racial makeup or just to satisfy your curiosity, Ancestry DNA testing is the only scientifically rigorous method available for this purpose in existence today.

http://www.ancestrybydna.com

The AncestryByDNA provides you with a simple and objective description of your ancestral origins. The test gives you an estimated percentage of ancestry from the four major historical population groups:

Native American: Those peoples that migrated from Asia to inhabit North, South and Central America.

European: Europeans, Middle Easterners and South Asians from the Indian subcontinent including India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.

East Asian: Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Southeast Asians and Pacific Islanders including peoples native to the Philippines.

African: Peoples from Sub-Saharan Africa such as Nigeria and Congo region.

There are two versions of this test. The test, itself, is fairly straightforward and simple. You will receive a test kit in the mail complete with instructions for collecting the DNA sample. This is done by swabbing/lightly scraping the inside of your cheek with a brushlike sample collector. After collecting the sample, you just mail it back in the preaddressed/postage paid envelope provided to you by the company. It's that simple!

The price for the "AncestryByDNA 2.0" Test is $158.00 USD.

The price for the "AncestryByDNA 2.5" Test is $219.00 USD, and is more detailed and comprehensive than the previous version.

It's true, unfortunately, that there are some Filipinos who will make bogus claims that they are part Chinese and/or Spanish as a means to bolster their sense of racial self-esteem. This is especially true for those who claim a significant amount of Spanish blood (or, occasionally, any other type of European blood) and have no real evidence to support those claims.

There are also those who make the same "Filipino, Chinese, and Spanish" claims who genuinely believe that that is their true racial makeup and for some of these individuals, it may very well be the case that they are some admixture of those three, although to what exact degree is something they can't readily determine. You can go by a person's appearance, to a certain degree, to make a rough estimate of that person's racial background, or go by what their parents, grandparents, or other relatives claim. But we all know that appearances are not that reliable, and in some cases, can be deceiving, and anyone can exaggerate and lie about their (or their children's, grandchildren's, or other relatives') racial background. And without proof, who can tell otherwise??? In some cases, they may not be deliberately lying, but may be simply trying to second-guess their or their relatives' racial background based on whatever assumptions they may have about certain aspects of the history of the Philippines (e.g., the Spaniards colonized the Philippines, they had many young single males in the Spanish military, and many of those young males, being deprived of women from their own country, decided to take the native women as wives and/or as sexual partners; the Chinese came as merchants and many of them (also single males) decided to settle in the Philippines, the same thing must have applied in their case ... blah, blah, blah) and/or whatever limited information they were given from their parents or other relatives (e.g., your grandfather's mother was half Chinese, your grandmother's father was from Spain, etc.) In either case, it's difficult, and often impossible, to prove definitively what, if any, percentage an individual has of any given race without an extensive amount of documentation (e.g., birth records, other historical documents and accounts, etc.) and even that has its limitations.

Genetic testing, on the other hand, provides information and/or can fill in the gaps that assumption and hearsay cannot. And I'm more than certain that many of these individuals who claim to be some admixture of Filipino, Chinese, and Spanish (for whatever reason) would, in the very least, want to know their true racial background. This is where AncestryByDNA comes in. This test is for anyone, regardless of race, who would like to learn more about their genetic racial background. For those who are interested, visit http://www.ancestrybydna.com.

[edit] Chinese Ancestry

I like this article alot, it is entertaining at the very least but I agree that it has some degree that can be considered an opinion and at the same time, quite a reality of life for many filipinos, I know, because I used to do this myself, albeit thats just an anecdotal evidence.

Anyway, regarding the "Chinese" part, especially with regards to this line: The symptoms of those "afflicted" by the syndrome are said to be detected when Filipinos of no Spanish and/or Chinese ancestry whatsoever claim to be a mixture of these ancestries; usually in the precise descending order of Spanish first, Chinese second and Filipino third.. As far as I know, Malays, especially those in the Philippines Islands, ARE descendants of Yunnan Plateau Chinese that went to Taiwan, then to the Philippines and then to mainland southeast asia to become what is now known as the "Malay" race. Here's to the proper article with better citations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_of_the_Philippines#Population_History

Or maybe I'm just over thinking this too much and the line simply mentioned the tendency of many filipinos to hold recent chinese mestizos(with more decidedly "chinese" features) more desireable.--Chicbicyclist 09:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel words

Lots of weasel words in this article, including a recent edit by an anon user: Some claim to be Latinos due to their Spanish surname. Please cite sources before adding information. --Jojit fb 07:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The anon user removed it. ;) Probably, he can't find any good sources. Anyway, I added more "citation needed" tags on sentences that need verification. --Jojit fb 02:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Treated differently

“Spanish, Chinese, Filipino”? There’s another, much simpler, term for that…Filipino. It actually offends a number of Filipinos in the Philippines that just because they are not of 100% Austronesian ancestry they are labeled “less Filipino”. The fact that they have possessed Philippine citizenship for generations and have called the archipelago home for even longer should say enough as to where their loyalties lie. —Lagalag 12:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Most filipinos are indeed largely 100% austronesian. Those with chinese and european blood number less than 5%. Most still consider something that is foreign(European or Chinese in particular) in high regard. One just needs to watch Philippine TV(especially supposed variety shows where non-dancers and non-singers try to sing and dance) for a few hours to see that this is still the case. --Chicbicyclist 21:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

could hardly be proven unless all Filipinos undergo DNA test. You can't call the Igorots Sino folk just because they resemble North Asians. They can't be 100% Chinese or whatsoever. Largly austronesian is more acceptable.. without the 100%.. we can't be sure.

Exactly my point: Philippine citizens who possess significant amounts of non-Austronesian ancestry are generally given special treatment, or if not, are at simply treated differently, as if they were foreigners. (Perhaps this misguided envy or contempt, if you will, leads to IMSCF.) I completely agree with you. However, I shouldn’t have extended that observation like I did to all Filipinos (i.e. including those raised outside the homeland, although I understand that IMSCF was first documented abroad). —Lagalag 18:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Not at all. At certain instances they are given better treatment but hey, let's admit it, they too are often seen as "less" Filipino even though they percieve themselves as 100% Filipino. There's the otherside of the coin. I'f still often here 'They are not Filipinos, they are <ethnicity>. The case of FPJ is a good one to cite (although they have been diverting it to citizenship issues)

[edit] Recent revert

Al-Andalus, if you want the tags to be removed, please cite reliable sources regarding this article. Adding sources will help to improve the article. Also, please discuss it first here before you remove it. Thanks. :) --Jojit fb 10:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] We All Know This Is True

Hi i'm a Filipino, and i find this topic very interesting. I can definately understand why alot of Filipinos want this removed. It is simply because it ruins there chances of giving the preception to white people, hispanic people and black people that we are not asian and we are either Pacific islanders or Latinos. I have lived in Philippines most of my life and I can say that Philippines has hardly any hispanis culture in it at all. The majority of our traditional foods are very weird (lol) , based either on malay or chinese food. We all know our last names are spanish, but not because we have Spanish blood, and the fact of the matter is WE LOOK LIKE ASIANS! lol. It's embarresing when my Filipino american friends are trying to convince white people that we are actually not asians but more like Mexicans, and then seeing the look on their faces like as if we are some sort of 'try hard' wannabees in denial. Please filipinos in spain are actually called 'Lil Chinese' in spanish.

• Reply: Not All Filipinos look Chinese-Asian, Some Filipinos look and possesses European-Mediterranean in apperance that's because they are Mestizos! That's a fact! Why don't you get an education! You Monkey piece of crap-- User:Gonzalo...1960

What is the ASIAN look? The North Asians certainly don't look like Southeast Asians or even Asians. hey, aren't there "White" Asians(part of Russia and some of the -stan countries)?

Well, there have been research suggesting that malayan South East asians(Malayasian malays, Thai malays, Indonesians,Filipinos, native Taiwanese of non-sinic stock and the Madagascar people) are more closely related to people in the pacific islands(the pacific islanders including the maoris, native hawaiians, samoans etc.) than to the sinic(China, Japan, Koreas, Vietnam) East Asian stock, under the umbrella term, Austronesians. But thats a whole other topic and probably not appropriate in this talk page.--Chicbicyclist 01:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

part of it is many of the parents of todays generation of filipinos have lied to their children because they have that mentality. they have pruposely brought their children up under the false idea that htey have spanish roots. Quite sad really.

Some are further said to attempt to falsely identify as either Hispanics or Pacific Islanders so as to avoid aligning themselves with, or "worse yet" identifying as, Asians.

• do they think the rest of the wrold are dumb? Philippines is in Asia therefore Filipinos are Asian.
• IMSCF may just be an acknowledgment for the different peoples (Spanish, Chinese) who influenced (either by colonization or contact) the Philippines and the Filipinos. Also, this is stated to give the idea that Filipino as a people and a culture are "related" atleast to the Spanish and Chinese, because some Westerners don't know where the Philippines or who are the Filipinos.

As to the statement that ..Philippines is in Asia therefore Asian..., this is not entirely correct. The Philippines can also be said as part of Pacific Islands since it is located on the western Pacific Ocean. The culture of the Filipinos are more akin to the culture of Pacific Islanders than say, the Thais (see Austronesian people). Identifying with the Pacific Islanders is also correct. Jordz

It happened last week in my spanish class. Last week everyone in my spanish class was to bring something cultural to class(not just hispanic culture but any culture) and give a presentation to the class in spanish. So when when a classmate of mine, who is philipino born, goes, he brings a book about the philipines. His entire presentation was some BS about the philipines being a hispanic country with a semi-spanish language, hispanic food, religion, buildings. He talked about how he has a spanish surname, and the entire time I was thinking how many philipinos think this way. My dad once told me that many philipino women he knows they say that most philipinos are mixed with Spanish or "MEXICAN" blood. As mexican-american it bothers it to hear philipinos talk like this.

Why it "bothers you to hear filipinos talk like this", and say that's "BS"? Your filipino classmate is correct in presenting the Philippines as a hispanic country, as that is true. What with the history and contact of the country with Spain/Mexico. Here have a read: Culture_of_the_Philippines Jordz

My friend it appears that you suffer from IMSCF Syndrome as well. "Hispanic", as you know, specifically refers to Spain, and to the Spanish-speaking nations of the Americas as cultural and demographic extensions of Spain. Since the 20th century, the use of the Spanish language has declinedIn the Philippines today, the language is spoken by less than 0.01% of the population. Around 90% of the filipino population are predominantly of indigenous ancestry and very few, only about 3.5%, would qualify as Hispanic by ancestry. Are you familar with the Catálogo alfabético de apellidos

Also while relatively unknown, there is a flag representing the countries of Hispanic America, its people, history and shared cultural legacy. Obviously the philippines are not included.

Right. Hispanic is a sort of census category in the US denoting Latin Americans. Moreover, having lived in the Philippines all my life, I can say that Filipino culture in the Philippines is only Western superficially; it’s Asian at its very core. There’s nothing wrong with that, of course, but an assertion like this rarely holds favorably with a lot of Pinoys (except probably the Chinese-Filipinos) who prefer to see Athens as the cradle of their civilization and thus their ethnic identity. —Lagalag 13:00, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WE ARE NOT PACIFIC ISLANDERS (e.g. Hawaiian, Samoan)

If you actually went to the Philippines (the country i was born and lived most of my life in), you would know that the base of our culture is very asian. We are nothing like Samoans or Hawaians. Just Because we have islands and we border with the Pacific, dosent mean we are not from Asia. Or else you could call Japanese Pacific Islanders too. Do you actually think that other asian countries dont have tropical Islands and Island cultures? just look at MAlaysia or Indonesia. We are actually taught in our schools here that only 2% of all Filipinos are mixed, and its just assumed knowledge that we are Asian and in Asia. Our culture is Asian but that dosent necesseraly mean that we are chinese. We are mostly Malays. Malays have a deep rooted culture just as strong as chinese or anyone else. Our traditional clothes, food and language all are based from Malayan roots. It's sad when some of us Filipinos are trying to show others that not all of us are like that and but we are actually outnumbered on this little discussion board by those just proving the whole IMSCF Syndrome witht they're ignorant and naieve posts. --Jandela 02:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

We're not Malays. We are Austronesian. The term Malay, when you go to Indonesia, Sinapore and Malaysia are a specific ethnic group. Just much as how we call ourseves Tagalogs, Bisaya, Ilocano, Igorot.

So are Filipinos "trying-hard" Malays now, eh?

The anonymous user who wrote the above reply did well to keep himself anonymous, because the above post is a perfect example of ignorance. Here let me help you research. Austronesian "Austronesian peoples consist of three primary groupings by name and geographic location. They are classified based on the Stanford University study.." Malay is a group of Austronesians.

Now here if you dont believe me still read more. Malay people "They constitute the dominant ethnic group in Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, The Philippines, the Pattani region of Thailand and East Timor.."

"Malays are linguistically related to the Polynesian and Micronesian groups of the mid-Pacific, as members of the Austronesian family of languages.." (Malay people)

Yes when you go to Malaysia the word Malay for political reasons means something else. In Malaysia it describes anybody wether you are white,black,chinese, who is muslim and follows islamic malay tradition. Im quite sure the Malaysian government werent the first people in the world to say the word "Malay". --Jandela 07:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

"Malay" has two meanings. Originally, it was an ethnic group from Sumatra that populated Malay Peninsula and speaks Malay. Then when the whites arrived, they lumped all the Asiatic brown skinned Austronesian speaking people as "Malay". The second term includes the real Malays, Javanese, Filipinos, Borneans, etc.--Jcdizon

Which is rather ridiculous. It's like trying to call all those people Kapampangans. Anthropologists no longer use Malay any more. --Chris S. 23:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

So what do they use nowadays? I'm serious since I agree with you that 'Malay' is too complicated of a word to use, but I've personally tried searching myself and concluded that a better term is nowhere to be found(and that I have no anthropoligical degree or anything of that sort, so I wouldn't know). You can't use "Austronesian" since that would include Taiwanese aborigines and the Pacific Islanders. I don't even know if Austronesian is a correct academic term to refer to these people since most that I've read simply refer to them as 'Austronesian-speaking' or 'Austronesian speakers'.--Chicbicyclist 08:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tags

I’ve removed the original-research-needed tag, as most of the information in the article, although some admittedly needing citation, is not new. No new theories are being introduced here; this is all old news. As for the POV tag, I’ve removed that, too; the Filipino people are clearly not being slandered here and the many other introductory tags that remain are enough. —Lagalag 13:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I would put it back because the dispute is still not settled. Perhaps a more appropriate tag is in order to alert the reader that what they are reading a controversial article. --Chicbicyclist 10:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I've returned the original research tag per No original research policy. It is not an issue of whether IMSCF syndrome is new or not. It stated there in the policy that an "original research" is "a term used in Wikipedia to refer to material that has not been published by a reliable source". Does this material state reliable sources? If you can state a published reliable source regarding IMSCF syndrome then we can remove this tag. I want to see something like a statistical research that documents the syndrome among overseas Filipino. Please don't just cite opinionated blogs and columns. --Jojit fb 06:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This Syndrome Article is Useless and Pathetic and Should be Deleted as soon as possible

What is the purpose' of this article?????. This article on IMSCF Syndrome is a cowardly attack on Filipino mestizos. Why do you care?, if a person claims he or she is a mestizo.. You do not know them ,or their family background and their ancestral blood line and history. He or She is probably or might be a mestizo (mixture) of Spanish, Mexican or American ancestry or what ever..You guys are just probably just jealous, because their much better looking than you guys. What enrageds me in reading this article is that, there are so many hatred and jealousy attacks on Filipino mestizos for no valid reasons. I know most of the statement written in this useless article are written by newly registered Filipino wikipedians and non Filipino wikipedians, including and probably User:Al-Andalus. I know Al Andalus is the "brain-child" or the "Mastermind" of this article, since he has been known in the past and present, for his hatred on Filipino Mestizos. You can't fool me!.. I might be a non-functional user, but I know what's going-on here!, I've been monitoring wikipedia since 2004 and have been around in wikipedia as early as 2003, as an unknown contributer. I been monitoring this article for several months now..But i said nothing, Now after 1 year of silence, it's time to talk again..1) This article should'nt have never been created at all. It does not belong in wikipedia.2) The article also does not cite sources. It's just a POV racist article attacks on Filipino-Mestizos.. 3), You Guys! should be ashamed of your selves..4) You guys should probably seek help from a Psychiatric doctor, because i think most of you guys and girls are sick in the head. This is an Encylopedia; not a forum. This article should be deleted as soon as possible. Wheere are the administrators, why hasn't the Wikipedia Administators done nothing about this?. Where are they?? We Need Help!!--09:30 Gonzalo 18 November, 2006 (UTC)

Jealous because "their much better looking than you guys"? "You guys should probably seek help from a Psychiatric doctor"? I don't agree with this article. In fact I voted for its deletion the first time around yet it was re-created. Topics like this belong in a forum. I also believe that Al-Andalus is a controversial editor but insulting people will not garner your argument any respect and will only set to inflame those who are in support of this. --† Ðy§ep§ion † ^{Speak your mind} 16:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I'm a Wikipedia Administrator and I believe this article should stay. The term may not be be flattering, but it has gone into widespread use among Filipino Americans. Wikipedia is supposed to explain what the term means. Wikipedia is not in the business of putting flattering things into articles and removing the unflattering ones, according to WP:NPOV. Anyway, Gonzalo, I must remind you of WP:CIVIL since your attacks are out of line and may be grounds for blocking. Thank you. --Chris S. 19:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply: I don't like saying this; but it's true, Overseas-based Filipinos specially, Filipino-Americans have the biggest egos. Please don't blame other local-born Filipinos mestizos who actually are mestizos themselves, because this article is an attack statements made against local born Filipinos who are actually true-mestizos. I tell you this! User:Al-Andalus is one sick mentally ill person. This guy has serious "mental problems",and should seek help by a doctor as soon as possible. This guy does not have professional qualifications as a Population Demographer, yet he thinks he knows everything..Al-Andalus is a crazy old man. --Gonzalo 13:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Not really, I guess. Yes, those annoying Fil-Ams exist but let's admit it that no matter how "pure" native they are the tendecies of their alienation from the Filipinos are still high. I study in a local University here in my city and there are a significant number of Fil-Ams(Am of Fil ancestry) and edspite their native looks, they aren't considered as Filipinos just because they were'nt born and/or raised in the Philippines.

Is it too late to use my flame extinguisher or is the flame too big now?--Chicbicyclist 08:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The funny thing is your comments are even more racist to full blooded Filipinos. You are indirectly saying that my mother (full blooded filipino) is uglier than a half blood filipino. You actually think you are better looking if you are Mestizo/Mestiza than if your full blooded asian Filipino. Nobody is attacking Mestizo or Metizas, the proof is that only 2% of all Filipinos have any european blood in them (Philippine Government Statistics), but it seems that 90% claim they are not just of mixed European, but specifacally mixed Spanish. I am actually half Filipino myself, My Father is full blooded English and my Mother is from Davao. Yet i see this IMSCF syndrome nearly everytime i meet a new Filipino or see Filipinos explain theyre culture. I was born and grew up in the Philippines till i was 19. --Jandela 10:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

But then again, how would you describe a full "Filipino". Seriously, you need to interact more with non-native Filipinos to know what makes a Filipino. Gonzalo seems to be more Filipino than you despite the absence of Austronesian blood.

So you made a survey of the 90 million Filipinos in and outside the Philippines and found out that 90% claim other blood? Pathetic. It would take you another Jurassic era to do so. Hey, think of this. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some non-Filipinos would see Filipinos as more 'exotic' just as much as Filipinos see people of non-Malay descent to be more beautiful. Kapish?

No one will ever know how many Filipinos have Spanish ancestry just as much as the census of Filipinos with Chinese ancestry is undeterminatble. Different datas don't even match. Some say 10% of Filipinos are part Chinese, some would estimate that 1/5 Filipino have chinese blood, some would cite 50% of Filipinos have at least chinese blood. There will be no reliable information not unless the 90 million Filipinos would be DNA-tested. taking 80 people for test isn't realiable to conclude that the whole population are part this and that.

Just because they don't look more <ethnicity> but look more native doesn't mean they do not have foreign blood in them. Hey, look at the Igorots (whom I pressume are "purer" than your average Filipino due to their rugged and internal terrain plus isolation from the mainstream) especially those from Benguet and Mountain Province, they almost look North Asian! Their skin are lighter than your average Filipino, they're eyes are almond-shaped rather than round. How on earth would you explain that, huh?

(reply) Of course i am aware of our hundreds of different ethnic groups. Maybe i should have been more specific. I am very aware that Filipino is not a race or an ethnic group, it is a Nationality. What i meant was Filipinos that are of Malay stock.--Jandela 06:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Now, get your facts straight. You were just talking about "half-blooded" and "full blooded" Filipino above, eh?

I agree, nothing in the article in its current form attacks Filipino mestizos, and of whatever citizenship. If someone with a German surname claims to be a Jew, and you contradict him, are you now to be branded a vile anti-Semite? —Lagalag 11:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

• Reply: To: Jandela. I'am a full blooded Spaniard, born and raised in the Philippines in 1960. My Ethnicity and my Family tree is 100% Spanish, from Oleiros, La Coruña, Galicia, Spain and my nationality is Filipino. My Great Grand Father and Great Grand Mother and their families, including my Father, Mother, brother-sisters and relatives are pure Spanish peoples. We speak pure-Castillian-Spanish at home and sometimes Cebuano and English as an optional basis. I Spent my teenage/adult life in Spain, when my family lift the Philippines, bound for Spain, during the Marcos Regime in the 197o's. We came back to the Philippines in 1991, when i was 31 years old. My Family ancestors settled in Bogo, Cebu, Philippines way back in 1856 and we still have the old haciendas there..Spaniards do exist in the Philippines!. My 3 children, who are 12, 9 and 2 years olds and my 2 sister's childrens are 100% mestizos with 1/8 % native Filipino blood in their genes.. Don't tell me real Spanish-Filipinos, including my self and my families who proudly call them selves Filipinos and my 3 kids and my 2 sister's childrens have the IMSCF syndrome(s)?????, Do we have the IMSCF syndrome or what ???.. Off course not..I say this, because this is what this article is talking about!!!!, it's an attack on us Spanish-Filipinos..--Gonzalo, 22:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply: I'm a Filipino by nationality and a Spaniard by ethnicity, despite being of pure Spanish blood and this is because I'am a dual Filipino and Spanish citizen. This makes me and my Family a Criollos (Full blood casts) and Insulares (from the islands). Being born and a citizen in the Philippines, make you a Filipino. The term "Filipino" originally refered to the Spaniards, Mexicans and Latin American peoples who were born in the Philippines, during the colonial times. The term is freely used now by modern day Filipinos. Most of my families were born and raised in Bogo, Cebu, Philippines, except for my Great Grand Father and Great Grand Mother, including their families and relatives who were born in Spain. Some of my relatives who were born in the Philippines and families have gone back to Spain, during the Wars, including the Spanish-American War, World War II and during the Marcos Regime. Most of them never returned back to the Philippines. But me, including my Father, Mother, brother and 2 sisters and couple of uncles and unties and a few cousins have stayed behind until 1975 to look after our land properties in there. Although most of them never married native filipinos.. and have remained pure Spanish themselves. But i married a Filipino wife, including my two sisters who married a Filipino husbands. So this makes My 3 children and My 2 sisters children a mestizos. --Gonzalo, 11:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Gonzalo i think you may have misunderstood me. Not once did i say there is no Spanish people in the Philippines, im very aware of my own countries history. IMSCF syndrome does not "attack mestizo", in fact it dosent attack anyone. The syndrome however, is based on the collonial mentality of NON-mestizo (spanish mestizo) Filipinos. So in fact if you are a 100% or even 25% spanish mistiso Filipino, then this syndrome dosent even apply to you, so i'm not quite sure why your getting so angry. The only thing you have done is reveal your own old fashioned colonial mentality that people who are mixed european are more beautiful than those who are full blood. --Jandela 06:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply: I hate to say it, and I'm sorry for saying it, but it's true to some point, Filipino-Mestizos are a beautifull ethnic group of race, compare to full blooded native Filipinos.. Old and Modern-day Filipinos worshipped the term "beauty" like it is a religion.. Like it or not, It's always been like that for the last 441 years or so..It's not colonial mentally, It's what the eyes can see.. People make judgement on what the people see. Everyone does it. It's part of life..You can never change it. It been happening for thousands of years dating back to the Ancient Greeks etc. These days people still make judgement on appearance, most notably if you are Arab looking, you might or get descriminated in Western Societies, due to the Terrorist issues and that is fact. Now that i've fully understand your explanation of this IMSCF Syndrome article, I'm not angry any more. I thought this article was one of those POV articles trying to attack the Spanish-community again or something. This IMSCF article is just weird...that's all i can say... What about East Timorese?. Doo they have the IMPCET Syndrome ( I'M Portuguese, Chinese, East Timorese Syndrome ) or not?. I rekon they do?? I know this because, I had a East Timorese friend at work, and he claimed he was Portuguese-Chinese-Timorese ancestry, when infact he looked Mongoloid-Chinese with olive skin and aquiline nose structure which made him a bit half cast looking.. But his first name was in English and his middle and Surname was in Chinese, which made it a bit controversial. This is because most East-Timorese people, including East Timorese Mestiços does not have Chinese names and surnames. The majority of East Timorese people and East Timorese Mestiços have Portuguese Names and Surnames. Filipinos are not the only one's who is sufferring from the syndrome.. But i still think This Syndrome business is crazy...And It's not academic..Gonzalo 22:30, 21 November, 2006 (UTC)

Guys, lets end this discussion right here. Arguments are now being deduced to personal attacks and off topic stuff that has nothing to do with the improvements about the article, arguments for and against its existence and the actual merit of the content. It's better if we end this section now and start with a clean slate in another one and hopefully get more productive results and feedback. And one last request guys, let's try to be civil. Remember that the entity on the other end of the line is still a person -- Sincerely, Chicbicyclist 09:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please stop with the redundancies and weasel word

Hey guys, especially Gonzalo, will you stop adding the redundant stuff? One mention of unmixed is enough in the opening paragraph. No need to repeat it over and over again every time "Filipino" is mentioned since. Also, I'm reverting back the sentence claiming that 'It is commonly practiced by' overseas Filipinos when we still don't know whether it has any bearing or not. The phrase 'It is most common among' implies that it's occurrence is not found in most overseas Filipinos, but that it is most common in this demographic. And please, use the preview button instead of making numeros small changes and pressing the save page button every time.--Chicbicyclist 03:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need to provide more Facts

Some of the sentences in this Monkey Syndrome crap does not cite facts. Need more citation informations pls. :) !!-- User:Gonzalo...1960