Talk:Icebreaker (Suvorov)

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[edit] Old talk

And I think the facts from Suvorov's biography should go to his page Viktor Suvorov Gene s 06:36, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Removed:

The prevaling ideology in the USSR at that time was that revolution may survive only when it happens everywhere (Permanent Revolution. Thus Soviet government felt an obligation to instigate the communist revolution in the neighboring countries.

"The prevailing..." -- It was not. See Permanent Revolution).
"Thus Soviet government..." -- speculation.

Mikkalai 23:38, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I believe it was wrong to remove the piece. It was discussed in the book. If you so wish, you can write that the book speculated about the prevailing ideology. It's wrong to remove it. I put it back.

Gene s 14:22, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It is wrong to keep false statements as statements of fact, so I removed it again. But I see your point (about the book). I'll try to replace the piece by something more correct after re-reading the book (I have it). Mikkalai 15:23, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
First, I believe the statement is factualy true. I would agree with you if you could provide references. Second, such claim is made in the book (I also have it). If you just remove the statement, the second part about Stalin's reasons for invading Europe makes little sence. I have no objection if you rewrite it. Untill you have time to rewrite it I believe the piece should stay. By the way, you may also want to check out Viktor Suvorov. Your edit the first book is a little ambigous because the first book (afaik) was Aquarium, not Icebreaker. Icebreaker was the firt on the subject. Gene s 17:03, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've already provided the reference (in fact, you did it yourself): it is Permanent Revolution, so RTFM, dear sir. The statement is false. the theory belongs to Trotsky, ans Stalin was against it. Like I said, I'll reveiew the book and write the opinion of Suvorov expressed there, not as a fact it was presented in the deleted piece. You are right about the "first book", sorry. Mikkalai 18:32, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Your current edition is kind of hard to read, but the content is OK. "RTFM", "nonsence". I don't believe language like that is justified when dealing with a minor disagreement. Gene s 03:53, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"Nonsense" describes the phrase, not a person, nor your believe in the truth of the phrase. I wouln't call the disagreement minor; I'd call it misinformation. As for RTFM, see RTFM. When you objected me I took labor to recheck and substantiate my claim. The recheck of your belief was one mouse click away. You chose to simply revert me without bothering to do the mouse click at the reference provided (see RTFM, sentence two). Mikkalai 07:37, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You seem to hold the article Permanent Revolution as the highest authority. You may want for example to RTF Suvorov's opinion on why Stalin suppressed Trotsky theory. So, you RTFBook before saying "nonsence" regarding things you clearly don't fully understand. It's also a really good idea for you to try to watch your language, because the way you use it asks for a confrontation. Gene s 09:18, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I hold that wikipedia should maintain consistency, hence the article Permanent Revolution is supposed to be the highest authority here. If it is wrong or incomplete, then fix it, rather than spread alternative views elsewhere for the confusion of readers. Mikkalai 15:50, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You seem to entirely miss the concept of a dissenting opinion. The whole point of Suvorov's writing is to express such an opinion. I don't believe it's right to fix the PR article because it expresses the majority opinion. On the other hand, Suvorov page should express his opinions even if they are different from anybody else's.Gene s 09:37, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You seem to entirely miss the concept of proper attribution. If you are presenting suvorov's opinion, write so. The default perception is that encyclopedia expresses encyclopedia's opinion. Mikkalai 15:50, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Yes, PermRev theory superficially resembles the actual policy of Stalin, but one must be careful with stickers and labels. Quite often things labelled notably differ from what could be inferred from the "linguistic" analysis of the label. "Permanent revolution" is a specific term for specifically trotskyist theory; call it Trotsky's trademark. Of course, Trotsky's heirs will not sue you, like, e.g., VELCRO (TM) trademark holders.... That's nearly all I must want to know on the f subject to state that "The prevaling ideology in the USSR at that time was that revolution may survive only when it happens everywhere" is utter nonsense. "
And throwing accusations like that in such words is a demonstration of sheer lack of responsibility and bad attitude. Gene s 09:37, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
... and picking on attitude rather than on logic and arguments is a good way to win in the dispute, isn't it? Say yes or no, are you still unconvinced that the statement in question is false? (or syaing that someone wrote a false phrase is bad attitude as well?) Mikkalai 15:50, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
At that time" USSR was pretty much alive and kicking; and it was spreading not for the reason to survive, just as Genghis Khan or British Empire didn't struggle for survival when they spread over.
It was struggling for survival by spreading over the world. Can't you see the contradiction in your logic? One does not deny the other. Gene s 09:37, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You are sidestepping the issue: we are talking about the phrase that speaks about an oficial doctrine, not about the underlying motives; the latter ones we may only speculate about, with varying degree of proof. Once more: let's concentrate: (1) do you still stand that Permanent Revolution was prevailing ideology of USSR at these times? or: (2) Do you stand that it was Suvorov's opinion expressed in the book in question? Mikkalai 15:50, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As for Suvorov's opinion (I've RTFB twice these days), the thickest thread of the book in question is "war as a driving force of proletarian revolution"; purposes of revolution are not discissed there. As for Stalin vs. Trotsky, the book frequently says what Trotsky thought of Stalin and his politics, not vice versa. Mikkalai 17:58, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Then this is how you read it. It's your personal view which is different from mine. What makes you a final instance of truth? I read it differently. And probably you should read some of his other books too. It might open your views a bit wider. Gene s 09:37, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As for "hard to read" part, you may easily guess English is not among my strong skills, and I am grateful to those who take labor to clean up my clumsy writings. Mikkalai 07:42, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] To Mikkalai

Are you done re-reading the Icebreaker? Should the piece about the world revolution be restored now or you need more time? --Gene s 16:54, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Did you happen to notice that I put in a piece that says basically the same as the removed piece, but much closer to what Suvorov writes in the book that is the topic of the article?

I not only did reread the book, I also run text search on "Троцкий", "перманент", "революция", "Сталин". And I have all reasons to state that the book is about Stalin's drive to instigate a war as a driving force of "international revolution". But speaking about other revolutions the book says nothing on the matter of survival of the first "proletarian revolution", the core of "PermRev" theory. The book says nothing about whether Suvorov thought "permanent revolution" was state's ideology. If Suvorov says so in some other book, you are welcome to move the phrase into the corresponding article. Mikkalai 17:20, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

OK, so you believe there is a significant difference between the World (or International) Revolution and the Permanent revolution, right? The difference is so big, that using one in place of the other is "nonsence". So, please do explain the essence of this huge difference. It should not be a problem since the difference is so big, right?
This issue was not my point. Besides, since a while before, right on this page, you raised doubts as to the authority of wikipedia on this issue, I have desire to present any further arguments in front of you. Mikkalai 04:54, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This issue is my point about your use of language like 'nonsence'. You called 'nonsence' my statemnet which was essentially different from yours book is about Stalin's drive to instigate a war as a driving force of "international revolution" only in my use of permanent revolution in place of international revolution. And I used PR only because such article existed. Please do provide your justification for using the word 'nonsence'. --Gene s 06:59, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
OK. Now I see. There are two issue. First, I have to apologize for the particular usage of the language. Unfortulately the history log cannot be edited, and a word typed in a haste remains there forever as a monument of stupidity an rudeness.
Thank you. Apology accepted, this part is closed. --Gene s 09:54, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
the second isssue is my opinion why the removed statement is false. That is already whitten above, but I can repeat. The term "permanent revolution" is precisely the term, specifically to denote the theory of Trotsky. Even not going into details, in no way it could be the ideology of Stalin 's state. This seemed to me so evident that I used extreme language. The only reasonable way way you could have phrase it is something like "in essence similar to Trotsky's Permrev". But even such phrasing is wrong, see below. Mikkalai 17:08, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Wouldn't you agree Trotsky was the best expert on the use of the term permanent revolution vs. international revolution, right? Here is one of his works: /Trotsky, Leon. Our Revolution: Essays on Working-class and International Revolution, 1904-1917. Moissaye J. Olgin, comp. H. Holt, 1918./ I agree that the term permanent revolution is usually attributed to Trotsky, but the distinction is not as clear cut as you seem to think. As I said before, I agree that Suvorov did not use the term PermRev in Ledokol. I used the link only because the article existed and the difference between permrev and intrev seemed trivial to me. On the other hand, I think in 'Day M', S. offered a conjecture on why Stalin ordered Trotsy's murder - Trotsky was openly talking about revolutionary expansion while Stalin wanted to keep it secret. And that appeared to me as a proof that the difference between Trotsky's theory and Stalin's plan was not that significant (at least in Suvorov's opinion, and this page is all about his opinions). --Gene s 09:54, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
On you second point. OK, it may not be survival, but expansion. Fine.
On the third point. If Stalin (according to Suvorov) believed so, but it was not state ideology, then you are implying that there was state idology which was different from Stalin's point of view. How is it so?
Huh? Stalin believed what? And this stated where? Mikkalai 04:54, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
--Gene s 03:58, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Your words: book is about Stalin's drive to instigate a war as a driving force of "international revolution". So, Stalin (according to Suvorov) did not belive in it, but was driven to instigate it? Please do provide any logical explanation for this inconsistency. --Gene s 06:59, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"international revolution" is not the same as Permanent revolution. PermRev is a specific term with specific meaning, while IntRev (russian: "мировая революция") is simply a (proletarian) revolution in the whole world, without any other specifics. The goal of the IntRev is to "liberate the suffering working brothers", while the goal of PermRev is to sustain a revolution in a particular country. IMO this difference is just as marked as the difference between altruism and egoism. Now, you may say that the goal of InRev might as well be "egoistic". But we are talking about ideology here, i.e., about what is declared in written. We may conclude that Stalin was, say, a power-hungry tyrant, but we cannot claim it was his ideology. Often ideology serves to "cover tracks", so to say. At best, we can speak of "politics", i.e., actions of Stalin. But again, I urge to be careful with words that have a specific, recognized meaning. Otherwise there will be total confusion.
Personally, I think if Trotski had a chance to gain power, he would be even worse tyrant than Stalin. For example, his idea of Labor army (oops, the article is missing, or may be the term is known in English under another name?) would bring GULAG much faster and with less hypocrisy. And it is quite possible that this perfectly communist idea of Trotsky uinspired Stalin, but we are using the term labor camp, rather than labor army, despite the fact that GULAG in fact had army-type organization. Mikkalai 17:08, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
It's either Labour Army or Labor Army with the first being a touch more common probably because Brits pay more atention to European history. Yes, I gree that T. would likely have been worse than Stalin. On the other hand, the USSR might not have survived for as long as it did. Who knows. --Gene s 09:54, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

i dont understand this theory. dont most people say that the economy of the 'capitalist nations' was brought out of the 'great depression' by the war? didnt the 'great depression' do more to foist 'class consciousness' on the people than war? i dont know.

[edit] Removed "Critique" section

The unattributed critique removed. mikka (t) 21:16, 17 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Critique

Any serious study of the operational performance of the German Wehrmacht and the Red Army and Air Force in the initial period of Operation Barbarossa reveals that the Soviet forces were obviously unprepared for basic military operations and were in a peacetime state.

But Suvorov simply says that it is generally true with one small correction: Soviets were utterly, totally, absolutely unprepared for defensive military operations (According to Suvorov, Stalin simply did not believe that Hitler will attack USSR because he could not win such war). Conclusion that unpreparedness for defense is the same as unpreparedness for war, says Suvorov, is flawed. Army was prepared for offensive military operations.

In the following paragraph Suvorov's critics argumentation contradicts not only Suvorov, it contradicts itself:

Although Suvorov claims that an attack date of July 8, 1941 had been selected, this is contradicted by the overwhelming mass of evidence. There were no stockpiles of the fuel, ammunition, and other stores held in forward areas as would have been needed if an invasion was about to be mounted.

Yet Red Army stockpiles were decimated in first weeks of war, no one disputes this, right? How can stockpiles be destroyed if they were far away from the border? Bombers of the time had insufficient range to struck, say, Kiev or Moscow. Then how did they manage to destroy stockpiles?

Major ground units were dispersed into small garrisons rather than being concentrated at railheads, as they would have been had they been preparing an invasion. Units were not co-located with their own transportation assets, leaving, for example, major artillery units immobile.

USSR is huge. Imagine that army was dispersed roughly according to population density. Then most of it must have had enough time (a few weeks at least) to organize itself before front lines would reach it. It did not happen. Somehow, significant portion of army was destroyed in the first month. How was this possible? _Where_ was the army? Think about it...

Air Force aircraft were parked in neat, tightly-packed rows along their airfields rather than dispersed.

Again, this couldn't be relevant if planes are on, say, Moscow airfield. Or Kiev. But it was very relevant because they mostly weren't at Moscow. They were much, much, much closer to Western border. They had to be within ~100 km from border to be reachable for German attack planes. We know that they were reachable, and were destroyed. Then why so much of them were there?

This is nonsense. Soviets did lose around 2000 planes in first week of the war, but this was lest than 20% of their total strength. Most of the Red Air Force's strength was, indeed, far away from the border. --Mikoyan21 10:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Large removal

I just removed all parts of this that weren't presented either as direct assertions of Suvorov or responses by another historian. The article was reading, to my eyes, something like a debate on the accuracy of Suvorov's thesis; I feel that the shorter version serves better as a useful and encyclopedic source on Suvorov's book. --RobthTalk 03:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

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