Talk:I'm with You

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the I'm with You article.
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A solution must be made to the edit wars between "With" and "with". Winnermario 23:13, 13 September 2005 (UTC)


I'd suggest checking out how it's titled on the actual back cover of the CD on which the song originally appeared or, if that's not enough to satisfy you (because, after all, it could be a mass produced typo that was either overlooked or ignored by EVERYONE who had to "inspect" and "approve" it before release), check out her official website which ALSO spells it "I'm With You" (unless this TOO is a grossly overlooked or ignored typo). Or hey, check out MTV's album page for "Let Go" . I see a capitalized "W". Another typo? Let's check Billboard.com: hey look, the album page on Billboard capitalizes "W" as well! Could this be ANOTHER typo? Just for fun, let's check Amazon, the sheet music and pretty much any lyrics site you can think of... yep, ALL with a capitalized "W". MORE typos?!?

Does anyone think this MEANS something? Does anyone think that maybe they AREN'T typos?Ginnna 09:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

It absolutely should be "I'm With You". There is not a massive conspiracy trying to print the 'W' uppercase everywhere. The page should remain where it is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MZMcBride (talk • contribs).

As I've noted to User:Extraordinary Machine (with no response, I'll presume he's occupied with other matters), I personally am with User:MZMcBride: whether intentional or otherwise—unless a press release or rerelease follows with a correction—we ought not be changing what the artist intended. If a song was titled "HaXx0rZ", for example, it should appear that way; same with film, band or book titles—we don't change 5ive to Five or "Sk8er Boi" to "Skater Boy", and capitals should be treated the same way. Only when a title is ambiguous—The original poster for I am Sam was in all-caps while the video release was all lower-case—should convention override. RadioKirk talk to me 03:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I also agree with the others. When a piece of work is marketted with a specific title, it should not be changed per Wikipedia's guidelines; this would ultimately distort what had been intended. —Eternal Equinox | talk 20:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Of course we wouldn't change the names of the 5ive or Sk8er Boi articles; apart from Wikipedia having no policy about deliberately incorrect spellings (unlike its capitalisation policy), those are the official spellings (I'm unfamiliar with the film I am Sam or its title, though). However, capitalisation is more of a style preference, and Wikipedia has style policies and guidelines that are there to be followed. The word "with" is a preposition under five letters in length, and per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Album_titles_and_band_names, it should not be capitalised. If you want to bring about a change in the policy, then Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions is the best place to discuss the issue. Extraordinary Machine 16:11, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. I'll do that. :) RadioKirk talk to me 17:54, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Posted—and, actually, on further consideration, there is a more conventional reason to keep the capitalization.
The argument has been made (and, thus far, successfully) on Talk:The Price Is Right that "Is" is a verb in the context, not a preposition (as in, you have to be right [or, technically, closest without going over] with your price assessment in order to win, therefore, in the presumably completed title, You Win if your Assessment of the Price Is Right). The same argument would apply in the context of the song lyrics:
Won't you take me by the hand
Take me somewhere new
I don't know who you are
But I, I'm with you
The lyrics clearly suggest that "with" supplants "going with" and, as "going" is a verb and would have been capitalized, "With" should be. Thoughts? RadioKirk talk to me 18:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
  1. CD covers often use all capitalisation or none, differ from sheet music and other reliable sources, and change from release to release.
  2. It's standard practrice in just about every publication, on line or off, to have a house style regarding matters like capitalisation in titles. Some magazines, for example, capitalise all words, some none — and this has nothing to do with what's on the CD covers. Wikipedia is no exception.
  3. RadioKirk's comment is odd, though perhaps has to be seen in the context of another comment that I missed. First, who on Earth would say that "is" was anything other than a verb? How could it be a preposition? Secondly, his interpretation of the lyrics in question is dubious at best; what basis is there for thinking that in "I'm with you" the verb "going" has been elided? Thirdly, he slides from talking about the capitalisation of the verb to the capitalisation of an adjacent preposition with no argument. Fourthly, if what he has in mind is that prepositions that form part of phrasal verbs should be capitalised— well, that varies from style guide to style guide, but "go with" isn't a phrasal verb, it's just a verb that takes a preposition.
  4. The idea that typing the title without a capital "W" would "distort what had been intended" is for these reasons, at least, peculiar. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
By point:
  1. Every media I've seen lists the song as "I'm With You" with no variation;
  2. ...and, I'm arguing that Wikipedia's "house style" should be to default to the original title if there is total consistency with its style, as appears to be the case here;
  3. I'm repeating the argument made at Talk:The Price Is Right (without comment as to its accuracy) to press the verb-use issue. Your assessment of my "slide" is based entirely on your own argument re elision of "going"—naturally, if I assume "take me" (especially when repeated a second time) followed by "I'm with you" would be "wherever you take me, I'm going with you" if properly structured, "with" supplants "going with" and assumes the purpose of a verb; and
  4. Not at all. :)
RadioKirk talk to me 20:40, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Mel Etitis is correct in the sense that album covers and CD single covers are frequently incorrect since they tend to either capitalize all or none of the letters. However, the majority of the press releases, documentations and television programs that I've accessed and have taken the time to watch since this issue arose a few days back, it appears as though from the knowledge I have gathered that it is likely Avril Lavigne's record label Arista had intended for the word "with" to be spelled with a capitalized "W". It is most definitely true that "with" is commonly not capitalized even in songwriting, but when taking into consideration the song titles such as T-Pain's "I'm N Luv (wit a Stripper)", Kelly Clarkson's "Since U Been Gone", Usher's "U Remind Me", these are not corrected due to Wikipedia policy ("I'm in Love (with a Stripper)", "Since You've Been Gone" and "You Remind Me"?). Personally, I believe that the word "with" should be capitalized in this article. —Eternal Equinox | talk 21:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

In addition, I do not believe that my comment "distort what had been intended" is peculiar — could Mel Etitis please explain what he means by this? —Eternal Equinox | talk 21:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm uncertain as to why this article is still incorrectly named. —Eternal Equinox | talk 20:16, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

  1. The article gives the correct title, and gives it in Wikipedia Manual-of-Style typography.
  2. The notion that using a capital "w" is an essential part of the "artists's" intent is peculiar (and purely suppositional). Is the claim that the record company sat down and decided that, in this one case, the capitalisation of a preposition was central to the artistic integrity of this imnmortal artwork? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I won't rehash the preposition/verb argument; however, I will state that, by "correcting" the title as it appears here, Wikipedia, too, engages in supposition (as in, "the [artist/record label] must be wrong"). If an artist (or record label), film director (or studio) or author (or publisher), etc., is consistent in his/her/its presentation of a title, then we ought not be "correcting" it. RadioKirk talk to me 19:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
  1. The preposition/verb argument is unsound, so it's certainly best not to rehash it. There is absolutely no way that "with" here can be taken to be part of the verb, any more than "on" in "I'm on Top of the World".
  2. It's not a matter of correcting them. Their manual of style may well prescribe capitals for preopositions, in which case that's correct for them; ours prescribes lower case, which is thus correct for us. The standard approach in publishing is that titles are given in accordance with the publication's own manual of style, except in special circumstances (such as cummings' poetry, etc.). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Just saw this at the Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars_ever, and although this is soooo lame, I'd go with what the artist and a host of other websites say, "I'm With You". Why? Because it is a TITLE. Perhaps WP:MOS won't apply here, especially if it was the artist/actress/person's idea to have the spelling/capitalization that way. Perhaps it was intentional. Perhaps it was a lapse in judgment. Perhaps it was all of them. The rules of the subject-verb agreement and of grammar can be bent when you use titles, right? And oh, if this is "I'm with You", then why Sk8er Boi not at Skater Boy? Howard the Duck | talk, 12:55, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The MoS specifically applies to titles (as do other manuals of style); it concerns typography, not choices of spelling. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:43, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. It is not up to Wikipedia and its manual of style to decide what is right and wrong; if a book is published with the title I'm With You, it wouldn't be spelled I'm with You across the market or on this website. How does the manual apply to situations such as these where it is unknown whether the title should be capitalized or not? I believe it should be written as per Arista Records and the track it was issued and/or released under, and in this case, with supporting references such as Avril Lavigne's official website, the sheet music, the CD single, the promotional posters and images, and the album Let Go, the title should be "I'm With You". —Eternal Equinox | talk 21:14, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Again, agreement or disagreement isn't really relevant; this is the way the world is. Every publication, every publishing house, every serious Web publication has a manual of style of some kind, to which they adhere in matters of, for example, capitalisation. You still don't seem to understand the point: it's not a matter of "what's the right way to capitalise a particular title — it's what's right for us, for all titles, whether of records, books, operas, films... Some music magazines capitalise every word in titles, regardless of how the capitalisation appears on CDs, record-company blurbs, etc.; we follow a more standard line, as found in most major manuals of style. If you think that Wikipedia should change its policy, and give up the universally held notion of consistency in typography, then you should be arguing at the Manual of Style, not here (but don't expect to get very far). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:29, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Well there still appears to be a problem with titles such as Since U Been Gone, I'm in Luv, U Remind Me, etc.; I'm not about to believe that these are specially exempt from such rules? —Eternal Equinox | talk 21:31, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

They perfectly fit the rules as I've explained them; the typography involves initial capitalisation of all words except prepositions, articles, etc. As I've already explained, spelling isn't the issue here. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:54, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not following your logic. This is the point: Usher wrote the song "U Remind Me" with the letter "U" in place of "You". Therefore, his record company released the song with the same title. In Clarkson's case, the situation is similar: her songwriters replaced "You've" with "U". Now Lavigne wrote the song "I'm With You" alongside three others. If they titled the song with a capital "W" — and I've said this before — it is not for us to choose what is wrong and what is right. —Eternal Equinox | talk 15:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that this reads like a set of non sequiturs, as well as ignoring what I've explained already. Spelling and grammar aren't subject to manuals of style, typography is. If a film poster or title screen reads, for example, Honey, I Shrunk The Kids, we don't correct the poor grammar, because that's part of the title, but we do change the "t" of "the"; the choice of upper- or lower-case for initial letters isn't normally considered to be part of the title, so we change it in accordance with the MoS. I realise that you don't like this, but you're not arguing your case, you're simply repeating the same point over and over again. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:51, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I apologize, but I strongly disagree, regardless of the style of the MoS. I am very aware that the song should be spelled with a lower-case "W", however, I'm not certain that Lavigne had intended to release the song under poor grammar — it may have meant something personal to her which we do not know (as a result of the lack of research, presumably). Correcting the grammar could be misleading if it had been intentionally spelled a specific way; moreover, we don't know whether the single was issued incorrectly. Therefore, I find it irrelevant to lower-case the "w". —Eternal Equinox | talk 01:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

A lot of time has passed without a response. I am going to make the move once again. —Eternal Equinox | talk 20:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

You're saying we're using our own manual of style. Okay, that's fine. However, why is it only being used for this case and not, say, Since You Been Gone? I don't understand. 2_of_8 02:33, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Because our naming conventions concern typography, not spelling. This has already been explained. Extraordinary Machine 13:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
And in this case — and per all the commercial merchandise — it seems that "With" is part of typography. I don't understand why this would be intentionally spelled with a capital W on the album, Lavigne's website, and commercial products, but it is, and it's only wise to assume that the correct song title is "I'm With You". Velten 02:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cut-and-paste move reverted

If user:Velten thinks Wikipedia should give up the idea of establishing consistency in capitalisation across articles, she can go ahead and make her case at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions and Wikipedia:Requested moves, though I doubt she'll get far. She should also be warned not to move pages by cutting and pasting, which she knows isn't allowed. Extraordinary Machine 00:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it wasn't cut & paste, it was in fact reverted. I've posted a very explicit statement (the last in the previous discussion) about the commercial release; if you honestly believe that multiple distributors spelled this song's title incorrectly (and purposely), you're missing a very significant point that you're passing off as trivial. Velten 02:37, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
How is this not a cut and paste? (For everyone else reading, fixing Velten's cut-and-paste move required temporarily deleting the article so that the split edit histories could be merged.) It's been explained to you that in this situation there's no "correct" way of capitalising prepositions in song titles (your reference to incorrect spelling in a discussion of capitalisation is rather confusing) - our Manual of Style stipulates that they remain uncapitalised, Arista Records' apparently doesn't. It's as simple as that. Unless, of course, Lavigne or someone associated with her label has gone on the record to say that they capitalised the "with" deliberately for some other reason. Extraordinary Machine 17:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
If I have to explain that it was reverted again, I'll bite my head off. It doesn't matter what the MoS states — if the song was deliberately released with a capital "W", then the correct article name would be "I'm With You". This also applies to songs such as "Since U Been Gone", which was spelled deliberately with a "u" instead of "you've". It also doesn't matter if they fall under different categories (spelling and typography); what matters is that if it's commercialized specifically, the spelling (which it appears to be in this situation) should be properly followed. Velten 20:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Mel Etitis and me have explained manuals of style (and their importance) to you; you're simply repeating the same flawed argument over and over (with the incorrect notion that spelling and capitalisation are the same thing). I doubt anyone would like to be stuck in a circle with someone who dispenses such antagonising retorts as "If I have to explain that it was reverted again, I'll bite my head off", so this is the last I'll say about the matter unless you follow the links above and start discussing it there. Extraordinary Machine 19:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken, you're the one whose repeating arguments over and over. I don't understand how mine is "flawed"; the songs "Since U Been Gone" and "I'm With You" were marketted this way — one was intentionally spelled incorrectly, so we left it at that. However, the other was capitalized intentionally, so it should've been left the same way. It's becoming more evident that the users who oppose this are under the impression that it wasn't marketted like this. Velten 21:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
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