Talk:I-55 Series

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Baseball I-55 Series is part of the WikiProject Baseball, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to baseball on Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to baseball. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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I-55 Series is a former good article candidate. There are suggestions below for which areas need improvement to satisfy the good article criteria. Once the objections are addressed, the article can be renominated as a good article. If you disagree with the objections, you can seek a review.

Date of review: September 18, 2006

Contents

[edit] "Friendly" Rivalry

For a long period, this was an amicable rivalry until the Dusty Baker/Tony LaRussa years produced a turning point on animosity. I think the article could be expanded to include this maybe even with a time line of key events throughout the rivalry.205.157.110.11 14:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I added a reference to this but I do think there could be more added. I think an important balance to maintain is the historical "friendly" nature and the modern day "intense" dislike but not going overboard in anyone direction. I tried to find some quotes from the 2003 season where Prior talks about hating the Cards and being disgusted by them and Steve Kline response about wanting someone to hit a line drive towards his head. I think any quotes in the negative about either team needs to be balanced with one from the other to best maintain NPOV. I think there is also a regional aspect in how this rivalry is view that needs to better represented. There is the "national view" (which obviously doesn't pay much attention compared to Yanks/Red Sox, then there is the Chicago View (which seems to mostly paint the rivalry as part of the bigger picture "lovable loser/cursed" outlook), the St. Louis view (which seems to look at it as more a 'sibling rivalry') and the Southern/Central IL which is (in just my opinion) where the brunt of the rivalry lies due to their middle ground location. I incorporated the Will's quote (sans his joking "Mama don't let your babies grow up to be Cubs fans" for NPOV sake) which alludes a little to the So/Cen part but I would like to see more there.Agne27 01:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison Points

We have the running total on the Win-Lose Series and mentioning of World Series & recent NL Central pennets but maybe we should also branch to include a chart with # of HOF, # of Playoff games/victories, Major Award winners, and maybe even some acculmated stats, etc. This would take the work of a hard core stat geek and someone more knowledgeable about wiki-code. But we can start to put the information in and maybe someone will follow up and make it look pretty. 205.157.110.11 14:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I can add a little but admittedly I have a huge bias towards my beloved Cardinals. I'll certainly try my best to for NPOV but I'll probably fail on a subconscious level. Hopefully some Cubbie fans will help to maintain the checks and balance. I do think the Cards/Cub Rivalry doesn't get anywhere near the respect of attention it should as a classic rivalry.Agne27 15:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sharing a division title?

I edited the statement that the Astros and Cards shared the division title in 2001. MLB only awards each division to one team. There's no sharing.Politician818 14:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for not originally having a source in the article. I've corrected that. From the official web site of MLB Hall of Fame *The Cardinals and Astros were declared co-champions of the NL Central in 2001, based on their identical regular season record. Due to the fact that the Astros edged the Cardinals in head-to-head games, 9-7, they were seeded as the division winner in the post-season, and the Cardinals were seeded as the wild-card.. This is also listed on Houston's page. Both teams finished 2001 with identical records 93-69 records to win the division. Katy Feeney, MLB Senior Vice President of Schedulding also said (as quoted on a baseball site by a writer from the Toronto Sun) "It's basically the wild card, but it's also co-champions," [1] Agne27 17:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Additional Source from MLB.com on the cardinal page as part of the 2001 timeline The Cardinals finished 93-69 and co-owners of the first shared championship in major-league history " [2] As a historical first, the 2001 co-championship certainly deserves a place in a wikipedia articlesAgne27 17:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anyone have Pictures?

The article starting to look really good. Is there anyone here who is knowledgable about copy rights & public domain that could add a few pictures? Obviously the two team logos would be good, maybe the cover of some of the books Agne27 referenced? A picture of Hornsby could also work since he played for both teams. I've looked for a few but I don't feel comfortable about my knowledge of copy rights and what is allowed and not allowed. Also is it good Wiki-etiquette to use pictures from other Wiki articles. I would assume they are copy right safe (because of the GDFL) what is the proper format to do that? I mean do we link to the article, etc. Thanks again to everyone who has helped! 205.157.110.11 20:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Minor Plagarism

The recent anon edit that added in 2001 the Astros and Cardinals were declared co-champions of the NL Central, based on their identical regular season record. Due to the fact that the Astros edged the Cardinals in head-to-head games, 9-7, they were seeded as the division winner in the post-season, and the Cardinals were seeded as the wild-card. is word for word taken from the hall of fame website that I previously quoted. The footnote references the data not the actual word. If the author wants to directly quote it, he/she can rewrite it to properly reference it.

In my opinion, the previous version was sufficient because the reader could follow the footnote for more information if they like. In an article references the Cubs-Cardinals rivalry, the exact post season seeding of the Cardinals & Astros for a particular post season whose outcome was irrelevant for both teams. The only relevant point was the comparision of divisional success between the Cards & Cubs--all the other info is white noise. Now, in the National League Central Article, those details are highly relevant because of the scopre of that article. They're just not needed here. I will give the original author time to revert/reword his edit before I make changes myself. Agne27 16:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Since the anon editor hasn't revised the text to remove the plagarism, I essentially reverted it back to it's original form.Agne27 23:41, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The Cardinals' website isn't a good enough source for them being co-champs in 2001. The Dodgers' and Red Sox articles also neglect to mention their co-championships (in 2006 & 2005 respectively).Politician818 19:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name Change?

It's been pointed on the Wikiproject Baseball that the I-55 series (at least the name) is not well known outside of the two markets. Maybe it's worth considering a name change? For notability reference...

  • Cubs-Cardinals Rivalry in quotes gets 757 ghits/ 2 ghits in Google News.
  • Cardinals-Cubs Rivalry in quotes gets 885 ghits/1 ghit in Google News
  • Cubs-Cardinals Series in quotes gets 744 ghits/1 ghit in Google News
  • Cardinals-Cubs Series in quotes get 771 ghits/1 ghit in Google News
  • I-55 Series in quotes (and -wikipedia) gets 530 ghits/ 0 google news
  • I-55 Rivalry in quotes (and -wikipedia) gets 199 ghits/ 0 google news

Any other thoughts/potential names? Agne 03:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article status

In response to Agne's call for input on improvements, I've got the following ideas:

  1. I think it would be neat to change the "Statistical comparison" to a table, and the team with the advantage could be shaded/bolded for a quick visual picture.
  2. Need to work in a link from the Cardinals page. (Cubs has one already.)
  3. This isn't important, but I like shorter lead sections (putting TOC nearer to top of page). Could we come up with a section heading for paragraphs 2-4?
--Spiffy sperry 23:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the response! I fixed the Card's link and also added a couple links from other articles. I also reworked the intro page to make it more concise and to the point. I agree that the overall presentation with the shorter intro looks better. As for the tables, I would personally love that idea but I am a complete dud when it comes to wiki-code. I wonder if the Wikiproject Baseball guys could help? Agne 00:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I took a shot at the table thing. I didn't shade the strikeout category, because I that's one neither team wants to win. I hope the colors are OK. I think red and blue would have been too dark, so I went with lighter versions. --Spiffy sperry 05:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I love it! Thank you. :) Agne 15:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of September 18, 2006, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Pass, in terms of the current content.
2. Factually accurate?: Fail How do I know if the lists are up to date?
3. Broad in coverage?: Fail Who coined the term, why is this concept still alive today. A possible criticisims section?
4. Neutral point of view?: Pass
5. Article stability? Pass
6. Images?: Pass but I would expect more when this article is expanded.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. Thanks for your work so far. --Tarret 23:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

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