Talk:Hypermarket

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Retailing To-do: | edit | history | watch | purge  Here are some tasks you can do: Copyedit: Target Corporation, Wal-Mart - to be used as an examples for ideal page structure Merge: Superstore ^ Hypermarket Big-box store (disputed) Expand: List of articles on project page, Hypermarket (history section) Stubs: Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market, Archer Farms, ClearRx Update: Target Corporation - Corporate fact card URL (last done 8-3-2006) Other: Department store (discriminate between itself and Discount store)

Contents 1 Request for clarification 2 Hypermarkets in Germany 3 Hypermarket Pioneer 4 Mistake? 5 Just figured out what is going on 6 edited picture 7 "1st" Hypermarket 8 Expansion, History 9 Changes needed to the article

[edit] Request for clarification

Can someone please clarify the difference between a Hypermarket and a Superstore? The two articles read as if both words mean the exact same thing. I find it a bit overlapping that Wal-Mart Supercenters and SuperTargets are listed as both Hypermarkets and Superstores. I am marking this article as {{confusing}}. 68.226.61.4 03:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The distinction is simple. Hypermarkets are department stores + supermarkets. Superstores can be hypermarkets or category killers. For example, Home Depot is a category killer (that is, it's killing all the small hardware store chains like True Value and Ace) and a superstore, but not a hypermarket. --Coolcaesar 03:36, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I am changing the first sentence from "a hypermarket is a store" to "a hypermarket is a superstore" and removing my tag, since now my argument is resolved. 68.226.61.4 07:11, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hypermarkets in Germany

I added links to Metro and REWE - their Stores "real" and "toom" are actually real hypermarkets, so I do not agree to the changes of ProhibitOnions... --EagleSGE 12:42, 09 February 2006 (UTC)

real,- is just a larger supermarket. Go to France, the UK, Poland, or the US to compare sizes and selection, both of which are greater than anything on offer in German stores such as real,- (or even Germany's shoddy Wal-Mart stores, which despite the name are simply relabeled Allkauf stores that have changed little in format or management since they were taken over by the US firm). The average real,- or Kaufland is smaller than a typical large supermarket in these countries, even if it does have a small selection of household items as well as food. The lack of true hypermarkets is due to Germany's quite restrictive zoning laws; the restrictions on opening hours in Germany, and competition from the country's well-established hard discounters such as Aldi and Lidl, also make the economic case for true hypermarkets difficult. ProhibitOnions 14:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hypermarket Pioneer

This article claims Carrefour as the pioneer, while the Fred Meyer page claims FM as the pioneer of the concept. Any definitive information on the "first"? From the FM date of 1931, I'd give FM the title of "Pioneer"? Redneb 13:46, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I have marked this article as {{unreferenced|date=August 2006}} for this reason. 68.226.61.4 20:55, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I looked into the New York Times archive on ProQuest. Apparently Fred Meyer and Meijer stores in the 1980s were not considered to be true hypermarkets because although they had a huge range of products and services, they did not have the size of hypermarkets at that time. By that I mean they were smaller in terms of total square feet of floor area compared to the huge European hypermarkets.

It seems to me the only way to resolve this debate is for someone with access to Oregonian online archives (probably at most Oregon universities and public libraries) to get into the early articles from the 1930s and see what exactly the 1931 Fred Meyer store featured and how big it was. The same needs to be done on the French side (although it may be much more difficult since France is way behind the U.S. when it comes to putting stuff online). Then we can see who is really the oldest. --Coolcaesar 20:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Anyone conducted research? The article now makes reference to Fred Meyer, with a link to an article that has nothing to do with who "pioneered" the supermarket. I've always heard that it was Carrefour, but I'm not an expert by any mean. Carrefour claims to have invented the concept in 1963: http://www.carrefour.com/english/groupecarrefour/annees60.jspSprotch 15:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC) There, did the job myself. All references point to Carrefour.Sprotch 15:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted another attempt to credit Fred Meyer as the pioneer. 193.132.242.1 14:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Fred Meyer pioneered the concept but called it a "Multi-department stores" but Carrefour invented the name "Hypermarket". It's Fred Meyer not Carrefour. --Caldorwards4 09:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you're probably right, but do you have sources to substantiate that? As I've noted above, the problem is that Oregon history materials are awfully hard to access outside of Oregon! --Coolcaesar 21:51, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The sources are in the article, including one regarding the first Hypermarket in North America. It was a pretty straightforward search. Every mention of a "pioneer" refers to Carrefour. I have not found a single source mentioning Fred Meyer as a Hypermarket pioneer, and by the NYT reference above, it looks like Fred Meyer did not even have Hypermarkets in the 80s. Wikipedia's department store entry does not list Fred Meyer as a pioneer in this domain.Sprotch 15:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Caldorwards4, please do not ignore all the sources that specifically mention Carrefour as the pioneer (Including the FT) and the source on the first hypermarket in North America. Your source[1] is a 1997 statement by Fred Meyer's marketing department that they expanded into "one stop shopping" and "one block store". There only claim is to have opened "America's first self-service drugstore." This statement is no longer online. They do not claim to be the first hypermarket or the first store to have done this (this had already been done by the Bon Marche in 1850, which had one stop shopping spread over several blocks). Incidently, this was written RECENTLY by FM's marketing department, they would have mentioned hypermarkets had it been relevant. By the way, do you have a source for the invention of the word "hypermarket"?Sprotch 11:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Caldorwards4, not even Fred Meyer claims to have opened a similar store in 1931. Per you source [2] they claim America's first self-service drugstore. Not a hypermarket. Not the world's first. We have already looked at 3 sources referring to Carrefour as the first and 2 stating that FM did not have hypermarkets in the 1980s. In addition, your source is a former self published document from the marketing department. It does not pass the Wikipedia:Verifiability test. Please revert your edit. Sprotch 18:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it has a lot to do with the definition if you define a hypermarket as a "a superstore which combines a supermarket and a department store", they were probably some pioneer before Carrefour (Fred Meyer ?). If you define an hypermarket by size (hyper is more than super) then Carrefour is the pioneer the one that push the concept one step beyond the competitors. I live close from a Carrefour store that is bigger than anything I saw in the USA. But sadly we have no Fry's ;-) Ericd 20:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake?

In a japanese hypermarket, you could see restaurants, 'Manga' (Japanese cartoon) stands, an Internet cafe, typical department store merchandise, a full range of groceries, beauty saloons and other services all inside the same store. is that supposed to say beauty salons or beauty saloons? 83.100.195.211 15:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably should be salons. Saloon is a sedan car in British English and a bar in the American Old West in American English. --Coolcaesar 02:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Just figured out what is going on

I just ran a search on Google Book Search (books.google.com). I got a hit to page 80 of Reading Retail: A Geographical Perspective on Retailing and Consumption Spaces by Neil Wrigley and Michelle Lowe (published 2002 by Oxford University Press). From that source, it appears that traditional European hypermarkets are defined as large stores where the majority of their sales are from food products, while American supercenters are large stores where the majority of their sales are from non-food products. So the end result is roughly the same but Americans and Europeans came at the problem from two different directions and developed slightly different formats. --Coolcaesar 03:09, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] edited picture

As part of the FPC poll someone edited it. Much better looking version available here --froth^{T C} 19:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "1st" Hypermarket

Since the discussion above on who first implemented the concept of "Hypermarket" is getting garbled, I will summarise my point of view:

A. It appears Carrefour pioneered the concept since there are at least three sources to that effect.[3][4][5]

B. It was not Fred Meyer in 1931 because: 1) There is not a single source making this claim; 2) Per this source [6] the first hypermaket in North America came in 1973; and 3) Coolcaesar stated below that, per contemporaneous press reports, Fred Meyer did not have a single hypermarket in the 80s.

C. I do not believe Caldorwards4's source [7] is relevant because 1) It is a self published document from Fred Meyer's marketing department that is not even online anymore and therefore fails the Wikipedia:Verifiability test; and 2) The source does not make any claims with regard to Hypermarkets: it claims to have introduced one stop shopping to America. Not hypermarkets. Not to the world.

Sprotch 11:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC) 

First, are we arguing about terminology or concepts here? Clearly, Fred Meyer never used the term "hypermarket", so Carrefour can claim to be the first on that. But if Fred Meyer had the first large "all-in-one" store in the U.S., shouldn't that at least be mentioned? And relevant to that, is there a minimum size (sf) that qualifies a store as a hypermarket? (For example, in the U.S., "general stores" existed in the 1800s or earlier, with a little bit of everything; clearly they weren't hypermarkets.) If so, how large was the first (and subsequent?) Fred Meyer stores?

Second, Caldorwards4's rv done 16:26, 2 December 2006 changed multiple sections of the article. Are you okay with all the changes other than the issue of who was "first"? If not, please start a separate section for each (major) difference of opinion, below, (hopefully not more than two or three), with a brief explanation of what you think should be done, and why.

Thanks. John Broughton | Talk 15:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

1. Thanks for liveling up the talk page, John (and cleaning up). I have asked myself this interesting question as well. I think we are arguing about sources, not terminology or concept. It is however an interesting question. With regard to terminology, we do not have a source for who first used the term "hypermarket". It could be Fred Meyer or Carrefour or any other company. As to the concept, my impression from the various dictionary definitions is that a hypermarket is "a very large shop, usually outside the centre of town" (from the Cambridge English Dictionary and others [8]).

However, I do not think that the note on Fred Meyer should be here. Both because it is not a verifiable source and because there is no indication of the size of the store. I have looked for further data but have found nothing of use (Caldorwards4 had to find his link on www.archive.org).

This article is not the place for a history of retailing, and therefore who started the first "all-in-one" store in America should be mentioned elsewhere. The first big "all-in-one" stores grew out of grocery stores (see Harrods) or department stores (see Le Bon Marche) in the mid-19th century, and I do not think that these should be mentioned here either. The first hypermarkets, however, are of interest, and the current version mentions the first Hypermarket in North-America (1976).

2. Caldorwards4's entry did not alter the content of the article, it merely created three sub-sections under the "list of Hypermarkets" section: USA, Canada, and "rest of the world". I am fine with it. I will continue this edit when I have the time so that all countries have their section and are listed in alphabetical order. At present it is a progress, although an obviously US-centric one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sprotch (talk • contribs) 17:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

Remember that article talk pages are provided to coordinate the article's improvement, not for engaging in discussion for discussion's sake. Do not use them as a discussion forum.

Commenting on contributors instead of the content is very off-topic here. If you dispute its content, then label the article as {{totallydisputed}} or a more appropriate template, and bring it up on here while assuming good faith instead of personally going after other users on this page and on WP:WQA. Thanks. Tuxide 21:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Again: isn't there a single Wikipedia editor in Oregon or Washington who could just go to a local public library and look at the Oregonian archives from the 1930s? And isn't there someone who can do the same at one of the big French academic libraries? I am sure if someone did that on each side of the Atlantic, this debate could be resolved in a few minutes. --Coolcaesar 07:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Coolcaesar, this would obviously be good but I think the research has already been done. I spent some time on google and found plenty of (and only) sources pointing to Carrefour. A research at the local archives would imply defining the concept of hypermarket (a huge supermarket?).Sprotch 10:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

My bad, this would be original research (see Wikipedia:No original research, especially here [9]) Sprotch 12:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I have found this source from the Discount Store News magazine archive, although its wordage is cryptic. It states that Fred Meyer opened a supermarket in 1922, yet all of the Fred Meyer units became hypermarkets sometime after World War II. It doesn't say when its first hypermarket opened; however it also classifies a hypermarket as a combined supermarket and discount store. This is the definition that I use. When I have time I will try to find something better. Tuxide 21:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Sprotch - Not that I'm encouraging library research of material from the 1930s, but I think you're misreading WP:NOR. You can certainly quote a newspaper that isn't available online, regarding facts (for example, square feet of a store, or that it's not in the center of town, or a that it's a discount store combined with a grocery store). Age or accessibility of information isn't the issue with no original research, it's combining disparate facts into a thesis (for example, arguing - and I know that no one has said this, it's hypothetical - that Fred Meyer missed an opportunity to become Wal-Martish because it didn't expand beyond the Northwest U.S.). John Broughton | Talk 22:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the way I read Coolcaesar's post was that we should see whether FM stores matched the hypermarket definition by doing library research (as in this example[10]). Sprotch 10:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I went for French sources and found that two books have been published that glorify Carrefour as the father of the hypermarket.[11] [12] I will add them to the current article. Sprotch 15:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion, History

Anyone interested in expanding the history section into a much detailed version? I view it not necessarily as the first and the now, but the in-between. For example, how the concept expanded across the world would make an interesting read. As of now, all we have is a first (disputed) and a mention of the "big three", although I don't think the mention of the big three is respective to chronological order. I believe SuperTarget was last. I'll probably have more time after finals. Tuxide 06:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

That's a great idea! Sprotch 17:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I am marking the History section as {{expand-section}}. I will bring it up in WP:RETAIL's newsletter when I have time to write it. For now, let us gather sources on the subject so we can cite from them later. I am particularly interested in the Discount Store News magazine, although I'd hate to rely on it entirely. Tuxide 21:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Looking through findarticles.com, the earliest mention of the word Hypermarket comes in 1984. So we are probably going to have to look somewhere else at some point. This article[13] might be of some use, as it provides information on Bigg's and Super Valu. It would also be good to know what they mean by "French style hypermarket". Unfortunately it is premium content. Does somebody have a subscription?

By the way, it would be good to provide references when we input information (even if they are offline sources). Sprotch 16:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I found the article, it's that "Target will get into food over my dead body" one [14]. It is detailed and can replace the one that the article is currently using. Tuxide 06:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Expanded SuperTarget based off of what I found, somebody can do the other two. Tuxide 07:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes needed to the article

I do not want to get into another edit war, but I am under the growing impression that the hypermarket format did not come to the USA until the early 80s, especially after reading this article [15] (the article makes a reference to this event[16]). This article taken together with this quote "1973: The Oshawa Group opens the first hypermarket in North America near Montreal. Source: Supermarket News, December 28, 1992, pg. 15." from here [17] has fuelled my suspicions. I may be wrong, as the wikipedia article currently says otherwise (but without sources). What do you think? Sprotch 17:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, after reading these articles [18][19][20], my doubts have vanished. Unless other sources show otherwise, we may have to make changes to the article.Sprotch 17:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The sources on which the article currently relies are self published and do not mention hypermarkets. What is your take on this? Sprotch 10:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)