Talk:Hyo Jin Moon

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Cut from article:

detailing the ugly truths of the Moon family. According to her,

This would go best in an article about Hong's tell-all book. Which somebody ought to start, I guess. --Uncle Ed (El Dunce) 19:47, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I just reverted a pile of moonie PR from a user who apparently had no other edits at all.

This article is heavily biased and obviously is only intended to show a negative one-sided view of the eldest son of a world-renown religious founder. I demand that this article be edited for fairness and objectivity. Possible examples are available in the history.

Thank you for your commitment to fairness and objectivity and repecting basic human rights. --Objectivity 00:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

The user exucmember pretends to want to be a crusader for objectivity and justice. However, he has a spiteful agenda apparently based on resentment toward Rev. Moon's family. He should not be allowed to edit articles related to Rev. Moon's family until he can overcome his resentment. --True Love 14:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedias are not written based on the resentment of former members and former wives. In a world of human suffering, a man is not defined by a failed marriage. Mr. Hyo Jin Moon has suffered dearly over his divorce. Exucmember talks about hiding embarassing facts. Those alleged embarassing facts are written about in books and websites and are fodder for a cottage industry of resentment and hatred. If exucmember's agenda of defamation would be allowed to proceed, then, in fairness Wikipedia's academic standard for everyone would be that of a supermarket tabloid aimed at destroying human dignity and fairness. --Higher Ground 14:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

You cannot delete facts about a controversial figure that are critical just because you are trying to "protect" that person from "defamation." That's not the way Wikipedia works. You also can't pretend that a pivotal 15-year period of someone's life didn't happen by deleting it. Your actions are far out of line, bordering on vandalism.

Though irrelevant, it happens that you are 100% wrong about me; I am not resentful toward Hyo Jin Moon, and have not made any edits on any page out of resentment or spite. You could easily have figured that out if you had gone to my page and looked at my contributions, which are quite balanced. My initial impetus for editing was as a response to the wholly inappropriate religious bigotry ("moonie brainwashing") toward the Unification Church I saw on the New Hope Academy page and some other pages. Go to the history on the New Hope Academy page and look at my edits, and read the Talk:New Hope Academy page. Look at my edits on a number of other pages regarding the pejorative "Moonie." On the UTS page I added the accreditation by Middle States and the degree prgrams offered (and added nothing "negative"). You can also find my edits which counter and expose the POV and deceptions committed by editors who are secular anti-cultists.

When there are two sides to an issue, Wikipedia requires that the arguments from both sides be presented with proper documentation. Perhaps you should research what Hyo Jin has said about his pivotal behavior that has led to Unificationists seeing Hyun Jin as the likely (second generation) successor instead of Hyo Jin. Hyo Jin may have said something about his substance abuse, violent behavior, and extra-marital sex, and it would be good to put something in the article from his point of view that gives the article more balance. You have to have sources, however. You can't just make up a defense on your own, putting words in his mouth and thoughts in his head; even if it were well-done, that would come under what Wikipedia bans as "original research."

Personally, I would like to see what Hyo Jin or Sun Myung Moon or other important figures in the "movement" have had to say about Hyo Jin's downfall. I think it would improve the article. -Exucmember 18:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear Exucmember,

Please cease and desist from posting and re-posting information which only seeks to further damage the reputation of someone whose crime in life was having a failed marriage and watching the family he loved fall apart do to his own mistakes. Unless you want to document the stories of 50% of American Families, I ask you to leave the material in the recycle bin and go on with your life.

In case you are bored and have nothing to do please direct everyone viewing this page where we can go to read in detail everything about all of the mistakes you have ever made. Not written by you of course, but by people who stand to profit by seeing your reputation defined only by your mistakes, people who get a rush or a high by adding insult to the injury of others. I'm sure that when you present that website link you will make sure that 5% of the document states some basic biographical facts about you so we can at least know where you live who you work for and who are immediate family members are. Looking forward to that post with great anticipation knowing that you are such a man of high integrity and morality who is not afraid to authentically reveal all of your greatest sins. That way anyone who wants to judge you can put themselves in the place of God and just in case your errors are offensive to heaven, we can begin the process of what you will face when you go to the spiritual world anyway. I'm sure you will want to take advantage of such pivotal opportunity in the name of fairness and objectivity.--Objectivity 23:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Exucmember,

I went back to review your edits on this topic and noticed that you took an article which was unbalanced with facts and negativity and added a several paragraph of details by generated by disgrunted former employees and the like to make it more negative than it already was. This is not necessary for an ENCYCLOPEDIA article. I recommend that you channel your energies where they will be appreciated: SUPERMARKET TABLOIDS. Stop pretending to be a friend of the unification movement when your only intention is to hurt the founder and his family by selfishly reminding them of family heartbreak and personal tragedy and spreading it without any honorable purpose throughout the world on the internet on a site which has earned its reputation based on fairness and professional academic standards. --Higher Ground 23:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Folks, please don't delete sourced information just because it is offensive. Please assume good faith on the part of your fellow editors. This subject is a public figure about whom things have been written in reliable sources. Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy requires that we report all notable viewpoints. On the other hand, we mustn't indclude unsourced derogatory information. Most of this article appears well-sourced. Let's focus on either sourcing or removing the informaiton without sources, but let's leave the information that is referenced. -Will Beback 23:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lineage

Cut:

There was a big celebration and special ceremony when he had his first son, with talk from his father about the "providential" significance of the completion of 3 generations (in spite of the fact that Sun Myung Moon's other sons and daughters already had male and female children).

The "in spite of" clause implies that church teaching is inconsistent, but ignores Rev. Moon's teachings.

The Messiah's eldest son's first son, is what is meant by "completion". There's no point mentioning the special ceremony, if the UC viewpoint about it is not mentioned - other than (1) it exists and (2) the contributor of the passage wants to insinuate something.

Anyway, the whole article needs a rewrite.

Hyo Jin Moon is not Rev. Moon's eldest son but is the eldest son of Rev. & Mrs. Moon.

There were hopes that he would grow into a position as a major church leader, but these were dependent entirely on his own responsibility. They were not a given, nor was he considered a heir apparent. Rather, Rev. Moon said he was "looking for someone among his sons" who could take on the mantle of leadership. Currently this looks more like Hyun Jin Moon (Harvard MBA) or Hyung Jin Moon (dresses like monk). Note the letter G in the latter name.

The decision to marry Hyo Jin Moon to a girl in her mid-teens may seem strange to outsiders, but it makes more sense in the context of the church's teachings on the Providence of restoration.

No exceptions are made about purity vs. adultery. Anyone can be forgiven, but they still have to give up the sinful behavior and "indemnity must be paid" somehow.

Church opponents regard HJM's failures as a sign that his father couldn't be the Messiah, on such grounds as:

• a real Messiah would not assign a successor who would turn out so bad (church POV is that HJM was neven assigned as a successor)
• a real Messiah's children should be sinless (church teaching is that like Adam who was born sinless, the True Children aren't immune to temptation but must withstand it and also must grow to perfection, i.e., sinlessness is not maturity)
• HJN's sins and crimes were tolerated, because his father did the same things (church POV is that Rev. Moon is innocent of such charges, and that HJN was merely given many extra chances to repent)

Whatever M. Pretorious "revealed" to HJN is merely her version of events and is largely denied by the church. Much went on at Manhattan Center that was counter to church teachings, and HJN was not surrounded by pure, wonderful noble people.

Bottom line is that his tragic life is not a reflection on his parents. Nansook Hong's book, while containing much accurate info, is above all a one-sided condemnation intended more to disparage Rev. & Mrs. Moon than to tell her own story. If anything, it shows what happens when parents don't help their children (the Hongs apparently never taught Nansook anything about how to deal with her future husband or in-laws). And the excerpts I read online today at Amazon from her book show (1) no understanding of church doctrine and (2) no communication with her parents or friends after her marriage (though I only read 5% to 10% of the book).

Contrast this with the mother of Hak Ja Han, who not only prepared her daughter for a heavenly marriage but stayed as close as possible to her after her marriage to Rev. Moon.

It's all about human responsibility and spiritual growth, people! --Uncle Ed 03:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Ed, you've gone way overboard with the "heir apparent" issue. It is true that the phrase is not quite accurate when applied to a successor for Rev. Moon. You are probably right that critics prefer the phrase because it implies that a decision regarding next-generation successor was made (when no final decision was ever made, or has yet been made). Beyond that you're going to far.

The reference to the completion of 3 generations ceremony is important. It does not imply that church teaching is inconsistent! (But if you could so misunderstand the implication, others might too, so the explanation needs to be filled out.) The implication is that the first son is regarded as significant. A generation is defined as becoming established in terms of first son, not first daughter, not second daughter or son. So the third generation is defined by the first son of the first son, regardless of whether another third generation child actually is born first.

This is consistent with Korean traditions, which is important. All members who understood the basics of how very much came from Korean culture were not surprised by this ceremony and declaration. As far as what's consistent with church teachings, one could make an argument that Rev. Moon could just as easily have interpreted the birth of the first third-generation child as being providentially significant in terms of showing the importance of the role of women or of Abel (or both).

If someone knows the reason according to church teachings that Hyo Jin seemed to be forgiven more easily (without having to "give up the sinful behavior") than ordinary members, please add it to the article.

It sounds like you (Ed) are saying that people at the Manhattan Center influenced Hyo Jin toward his wayward behavior. My memory is that members (including some I knew for years) were willing to go along with his behavior because of Rev. Moon's teaching that you shouldn't "disunite" with your central figure no matter what. -Exucmember 02:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is more like it: "went along with" rather than "influenced him toward" is how I would put it. We should probably mention Rev. Moon's statement that a "particular 36 Blessed Couple" was assigned the responsibility of raising Hyo Jin Nim (but apparently gave up or otherwise failed); that would make an interesting story.

Hearsay evidence gleaned from my fellow church members tells me that the True Children were considered more "examples we should follow" or "people from whom we should seek guidance for our own lives" rather than "immature brothers and sisters whom we should help True Parents raise". This is still a controversial point within the church, which has gotten no play in the press.

BTW, Rev. & Mrs. Moon have 14 children: The second daughter died in infancy and usually is not mentioned, but Rev. Kwak confirmed the birth in a Today's World article explaining the providential significance of the names of the 7 boys and 7 girls. The second son's death (in his teens in 1983) is better known (Heung Jin Moon), as well as the son who died in Las Vegas. --Uncle Ed 13:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Anything of significance or interest like the point you mentioned would most likely be a welcome addition to Hyo Jin's biography here. I added some things that were easy to document from Nansook's book, but I'd prefer the article didn't seem like it's just a discussion of his weaknesses and problems; I assume someone will fill out the article with other material and make it more well-rounded. This has already started with the mention of the trip to Africa.

The second daughter, who died in infancy, was talked about among the members in Korea in the late 80s, but she was usually not counted. In Jin was always called the "second daughter." Has this changed? A number of pages make reference to the children, so this should be consistent throughout Wikipedia. If In Jin is the "third daughter," perhaps a footnote can clarify.

Your mentioning "a controversial point within the church, which has gotten no play in the press" raises a very important issue. Sometimes the press latches onto stories about the Unification Church that have a sensational appeal but no substance, or there is no reliable evidence about something that may have happened decades ago, or the claims or implications are greatly exaggerated, or presented so far out of context as to be essentially false. Meanwhile, genuinely important issues that are controversial among thoughtful members are completely ignored. Perhaps mentioning any such issues would undermine the stereotype of the "brainwashed moonie." -Exucmember 17:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, sir! If you say so! Your wish is my command!! ;-)