Talk:Hubal
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I've added the reference to "Henryk Dobrzanski" which is usually known in Poland under his pseudonym, Hubal. I felt it should be not in see also, but before, so people searching for him would have easier time. However, i do not think he was important enough for making disambiguation page. Szopen 14:30, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You keep adding the words "Moon God" after the name "Hubal" as if it's some kind of ritual. Why is that? All your sources came from anti-Islamic evangelical web site. I know there is an entry on Hubal in Encyclopedia of Islam (but I don't have access to it -- the original source ... not as quoted by anti-Islamic sites).
I have not been able to find a neutral (or Islamic) site on the internet that agrees that Hubal was a moon god. All sites were anti-Islamic evangelical sites. I am starting to doubt if it's established beyond doubt that Hubal was a moon god; (contrary to your ritual of adding the phrase "moon god" every time you mention Hubal). Have you checked the sources or are you only repeating them as you found them in these evangelical sites?
I would like to see the original article on Hubal in Encyclopedia of Islam (unfortunately the library here in Kansas doesn't have it). OneGuy 03:47, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Well, we would like you to see the article on Hubal in the Encyclopedia of Islam too. Read it first, then argue. We imagine the Encyclopedia of Islam will be a splendidly neutral source. Wetman 03:51, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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- Encyclopedia of Islam is a non-Islamic scholarly source, so of cource it's splendidly neutral source. I would let you know if I find out what it says about Hubal OneGuy 04:03, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
By the way, even the neutral/Islamic sources cited in this article show that Hubal was not a moon god. He was an idol in Kaaba, but certainly not a moon god. I don't think your ritual of adding the phrase "moon god" (is that some kind of ritual or what?) every time after the name Hubal is justified (especially as you did in the article on Uzza). OneGuy 04:21, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Is it NPOV to say that the Quraish were 'freed' from Hubal. That could be seen as an assertion of his existance (possibly offensive to followers of Islam), couldn't it?
- Many historical facts are "offensive" to some cult or another. There is an Arabic Wikipedia for this kind of apologetic falsehood. --Wetman 19:43, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Of the many unsourced claims in this article for which the authoritative and extensive al-Kalbi offers no support, the most notable are:
- that Hubal was a moon god (notably not in the Encyclopedia of Islam, as quoted by Christian evangelicals trying to prove this[1]);
- that the three goddesses were his daughters (the Qur'an indicates that they were believed to be Allah's daughters);
- that the three goddesses were manifestions of the same goddess (a point contradicted, if anything, by al-Kalbi);
- that Hubal was called Allah (specifically contradicted by the little anecdote about the battle of Uhud: (abu-Sufyan ibn-Harb said "Hubal, be thou exalted"; to which the Prophet replied: "Allah is more exalted and more majestic.") as well as by the Encyclopedia of Islam.
Care to provide sources, anybody? - Mustafaa 22:18, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- The article was written by Wetman who apparently got all these claims (and he calls it "historical facts") from a Christian apologist site (see the external link section). The article claims positively that Hubal was a moon god. What's the source for that? Even if one source does say Hubal was moon god, this is still disputed and contradicted by other sources. The article also contradicts itself by claiming in one place that Hubal and Allah are the same, but yet the battle of Uhud incidence contradicts that OneGuy 22:46, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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- Corrected now... bu watch out! - Mustafaa 22:59, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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- For the record: before correction, this said: "According to Hafiz Ghulam Sarwar, Muhammad The Holy Prophet (1969), "About four hundred years before the birth of Muhammad one Amr bin Lahyo bin Harath bin Amr ul-Qais bin Thalaba bin Azd bin Khalan bin Babalyun bin Saba, a descendant of Qahtan and king of Hijaz, [more usually called Amr ibn Luhayy] had put an idol called Hubal or a moon or crescent on the roof of the Kaaba. This was one of the chief deities of the Quraish before Islam and the God of Muhammed's father Abdullah or servant of Allah of the Kaaba." false quotes in italics. - Mustafaa 23:02, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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- That was apparently added by an anon: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hubal&diff=9894750&oldid=9894580 - Mustafaa 23:12, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] How can Hubal be related to Ba`al??
Ba`al has an Ayn consonant in the middle of its name, while Hubal (if the spelling used in this article is correct) doesn't. That just about destroys the plausibility of the Ba`al etymology (unless you posit a borrowing from Akkadian Bel!). Furthermore, this definite article thing would be a lot more plausible if there were a shadda over the ba. AnonMoos 05:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Removal
I have removed teh following bizarre claim:
- One etymology of the Arabic word al-Lāh "God" identifies ilh as the term Jāhilī Arabs used for images used in ancestral worship. With the advent of Islam, Hubal was elevated from the status of ilāh "ancestral spirit image" to al-Ilāh, meaning "God". (Natural language change caused this to be eclipsed as al-Lāh. ) (F._E._Peters, Muhammad and the Origins of Islam, "The Gods and the Shrine".)
because Google Books has the alleged source and does not have any book containing the words "ancestral spirit image". The quote must therefore be fraudulent, or at best misunderstood. - Mustafaa 00:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Enuma elish?
Is it seriously suggested that the name "Hubal" is to be found in the Enuma Elish? If so, source please? - Mustafaa 00:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Allah to the pre-islamic christians and jews
If find this following statement very interesting. But it would be more hulpful to cite the source: Arab Christians refered to God as Allah before the arrival of Islam. Thanks for understanding.Read3r 15:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Someone gave a source speaking on the use of Allah in pre-islamic arabic speaking. There were many links to click, and supposing i found finally the aimed link, i think the source is propagandic. Some words and then claiming it's proven. I don't think that is convincing. The fact that someone used a name such "Abdellah" does not mean that the allah was the identic word to "God". Because other people used also names as "Abdmanaf", nevertheless, Manaf is not identic to the word "god". therefore, i reverted the article. If someone else believe that was an objective citation. I would agree to remove the template "citation needed". Read3r 17:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I added the previous Islamic source. Anyway, I replaced it by two Christian sources supporting that fact. KMF
Can you provide the exact citation that "Allah" was used by the pre-islamic jews and christians. In fact, i'm quasi-convinced that such claim is unsourced. But i'm sure that my knowledge is Null, So, i will waint until you give the citation you meant. In case, you didn't provide a citation [Please no long articles, because we don't need to read all the pages or sites] i wil put that "citation needed" again. Best regards. Read3r 15:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
