User talk:Hraefen

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[edit] The Daily Cardinal

All the links are dead... it's not vandalism.

[edit] Triple meter additions

Please add additional songs in the appropriate decade with as much info as you have. Feel free to add songs even if you don't know the artist/year/album etc. Please do not wikilink anything.

  • This template should speed up the process.
  • () "" by - album:

[edit] Triple meter 80s

  • (1985) "The Only Mistake" by Joy Division- album: Still
  • (1986) "Another World, Another Day" by Soul Asylum- album: Made to Be Broken
  • (1987) "They Can Never Tear Us Apart" by INXS- album: Kick

[edit] Before Braille

Hi! Anything else you can add beyond an opening sentence would be greatly appreciated. Who's in the band? Where are they from? Any hits? Any notable tours? Whole bunch of questions begging to be answered. Thanks and have fun! - Lucky 6.9 04:46, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Cool beans.  :) Good luck with the article! - Lucky 6.9 05:57, 25 November 2005 (UTC) ==

  • Well, don't worry I'll do my best to help you :)

I can help you translate things into Spanish and I can review your translations. I saw ,for instance,you cannot typewrite Spanish characters like accents or eñes, my keyboard can do it very well, so...

By the way, you can review my contributions in the English wikipedia, because English is not my mother tongue, as you could notice.

One thing (please don't take amiss my words, mmm)in Spanish, in the titles of books or CDs or whatever, it is not obligatory to start all verbs, nouns, adverbs and pronouns with a capital letter as in English, you can feel free to do it, but the only word which has to start with a capital letter is the first one :)

Your lists are quite complete, I don't know what to add, but I will keep on searching things for them :)

Do take care!

Sweet regards!

Gaudio 11:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Linguistic history of Spanish

Are you working on this? Because if it's done it it should be merged into either History of Spanish or Iberian Romance Languages, I think. Even if there's more it maybe should go into one of those articles? Herostratus 00:32, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, sorry to bother you -- I can see you're an experienced and erudite editor. Just doing New Page Patrol. Herostratus 00:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Lo pasado, pisado :-) (all forgotten. I didn't take it personally anyway). I'll try to help anyway I can, plus letting the word out at the Argentine Board.

Wikipedia:Argentina-related_regional_notice_board I think there are similar ones for other countries/cultures
Done

User:Ejrrjs says What? 22:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Source in "History of the English Language"

I got it from the Wikipedia article "Latin Influence in English". How would I cite that?

[edit] Hello

Hi - Thanks for your welcome, and nice to know that you'll be starting a new article on Spanish words with Dravidian origins. I'll try helping out...Cribananda 00:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Fiona Apple, "Criminal"

Languid accurately describes Apple's style, particularly in "Criminal," and I'm not the only one who thinks so.

  • "...Apple's trademark languid, off-time verse style..."
  • "...Apple's languid vocal delivery..."
  • "...she sings in a languid voice..."
  • "...her disc's languid sound..."
  • "...this song that displays a languid Fiona..."

Not all of these refer specifically to "Criminal," but her style in general is not exactly hyperactive. I don't feel compelled to add the judgment back in and I don't have a problem with bold edits, but there's no need to talk trash. --Tysto 18:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] -walla

Your question on Khirad's talk page page has been answered. :)

Yeah, sorry I didn't get to it. But I'm somewhat relieved. -vāla (वाला) can be used so many ways, and I would've just bored you with my Hindi grammar books! By no means exclusively a Parsi thing, no! But whenever you do see a name with the suffix there is always that possibility - especially after an anglo word. Khiradtalk 05:03, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of Spanish words of various origins

  • Then you should remove español for the same reason. You are right, caput and cauda come from Latin but cap and cua are not Spanish words. I had more doubts with español than with capicúa. Can you check the "Breve diccionario etimológico de la lengua española", please? My references are español and capicúa. Surogase 22:45, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Yes, España comes from Phoenician i-sch phannim meaning rabbits' island or rabbits' coast, but español is of provençal origin according to the "Diccionario de la Lengua Española published" by the Real Academia Española (the same dictionary that says that "capicúa" is of catalan origin). Surogase 11:47, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Just a small correction, español comes from Provençal, not Catalan. I get your point with List of Spanish words of Latin origin, but why not a subsection for romance languages or a List of Spanish words of Romance language origin? The reason I put that words in the list is that although they ultimately come from Latin, they entered Spanish from other languages and are still identical to the words in the language of origin. So it is not a direct "evolution" from Latin but an import from another language that did the evolution. Another case would be grupo from the Italian gruppo. What about Spanish words of Basque origin in List of Spanish words of various origins? Surogase 22:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

I'm on him. :) --Golbez 23:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spain and Arrianism

Hi, Hraefen. I am very sorry for disturbing you but I have seen that you have re-added some material I removed from Reconquista. In the discussion section I added a note about that as far as I know, vast majority of Spaniards by the time of the muslim invasion were not Arrian. Could you please discuss with me about why do you think Arrianism was common among Spaniards inhabitants (It was common among the Visigoth as far as I know, but vast majority of Spaniards were not visigoths but under visigoths rule). I am very sorry for disturbing you by asking this.

Thanks a lot and best regards, jamuki

[edit] University of Wisconsin-Madison Arboretum

Alas I am far, far away from Wisconsin. Hope someone will add photos of the arboretum; I would very much like to see them. All the best, and happy new year, -- Daderot

  • Maybe I'll get out there myself (when there's still snow) and then maybe one in the summer. It's a beautiful place.--Hraefen 03:00, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] changes

Yes, I have been making changes. If you have been monitoring my changes you should notice that I have added footnotes for racial/ancestry makeup. Footnotes have indicated UK CENSUS, US CENSUS etc. You can look at the Scottish people page for instance. I have noticed that another user seems to make massive generalizations about ancestral statistics and I make the necessary changes using Census reports. Furthermore, I have been responsible for making sure statistics are accurate when it comes to stating ethnicity. I have noticed on other pages, no effort is made to back up facts with professional sources70.30.71.252 16:47, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bat Lake / Rat Lake

I really don't know what reference would give the official name of the lake. Local usage (here in Mountain Lake) is Rat Lake. I'm not sure what Delft residents call it. There is a DNR or wildlife sign posted at the lake, and I'm not even sure what it says. I'm thinking that sign says Bat.

An interesting fact about that lake is that for the past several years there has been a pair of Red-necked Grebes nesting there. This is the farthest south in modern records that this species has nested, not counting along the Pacific coast.

Anyway, my preference is Rat Lake. JonHarder 02:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

You have my curiosity up concerning these lakes. As a county wildlife club member, I visit most of these lakes in the spring and summer during the spring bird migration. This is what I found:
  • 1992 Cottonwood County General Highway Map lists the disputed lake as Bat Lake.
  • Cottonwood Couny Highway Map (2003) names it Rat Lake.
  • Minnesota Place Names names it Rat Lake stating the name comes from the muskrats that inhabit it. If you're interested in how places got their names, this is a great site. To find lakes, select a county, then Go! and then select Lakes & Streams below.
I am going to give preference in the article to the Rat Lake name. I am also putting the lakes in a two column table, dividing them by watershed.
I noticed a couple of discrepancies.
  • Parso Lake is not on either of my maps or the MN Place Names site.
  • Summit Lake which I have never heard of before, is listed on dry on the MN Place Names site. I am removing it from the list.
  • Harder Lake was omitted from Dale Township. This is supposedly named after one of my ancestors.
  • Swan Lake was omitted from Dale Township.
  • Three Lakes was omitted from Lakeside Township. Perhaps one of these three is Parso?
JonHarder 03:07, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marsh Lake

Was your disambiguation link in the Marsh Lake article, back to Minn, automatic? I was about to add a see also, when the car wouldn't start, anyway is disambig link still required? Lommeri 20:41, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

Hello. I noticed your AFD vote on Principality of Marlborough and thought you might also be interested in these similar votes that are currently underway: [1], [2], [3] and [4] --Centauri 02:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Embarrass

  • Hi, Regarding the word embarrass, the word entered the English language through French, but into French from Spanish.[5] BestPrimetime 00:57, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • This illustrates my problem with the English etymology pages on Wikipedia. It's ultimately from Latin and it took a trip through Portuguese, Spanish and French. I think the obvious answer is to list them all at Latin, but apparently others feel it's much easier to list it three times at all three Romance languages, but not at Latin. Bass ackwards. Check out the Spanish etymology pages to see what I hope the English etymology pages will eventually become. I would spearhead the movement myself, but I just don't feel like having the 8,023 edit wars and arguments necessary to do it.--Hraefen 20:17, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
    • You just made up that bit about it being from Latin. It's likely originally from an Iberian Celtic language. If you'd like to learn more about the word embarazar feel free to read the article I wrote about it. --Primetime 22:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I see that you've already found it at List of Spanish words of Celtic origin, so let's just leave it at that and leave the whole Portuguese thing out of it.--Hraefen 22:35, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
    Come to think of it: almost all words in Spanish, English, etc., are derived from Proto-Indo-European. For example, the "List of Spanish words derived from Arabic," page is technically incorrect because many of those words came from Aramaic. So, perhaps a note should be added to these pages specifying that it's for words directly derived from Language X. --Primetime 23:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I fully agree that some of the words currently listed as being from Arabic may in fact be ultimately from some other language. I am fully behind any attempt to provide alternate theories for anything as long as a source is provided. The source I used when creating the Spanish etymology pages says all of the words at the Arabic page are from Arabic. If you have a source that says differently, by all means go ahead and add that info, but please do not subtract info or recategorize a word (i.e. move it to a different page) without discussing it first because the source provided bears out any given word's current classification. It's ok, in fact desirable IMHO, for multiple theories to be given and for one word to appear on more than one page. Are there specific Arabic words that we should discuss?--Hraefen 00:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] American Parsi

Cross post from Talk:Parsi

-What's with the American Parsi picture? It does not belong on a article about the history and development of Parsis. It's a family photo, that's all. -User: Afghan Historian

Please delete the photo american parsi from the article... it doesn't serve any purpose... I would appreciate if we could include the photo of a Parsi from Bombay, since many of them still wear their traditional dress at home and what is the source that proves that the lady in the picture is a parsi... Aravind Parvatikar 14:10, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sean Ripple

Hi. A couple weeks ago, you voted in a discussion at WP:AFD involving the deletion of the article on Sean Ripple, from The American Analog Set. This is a courtesy note to let you know that I've listed this article at WP:DRV for deletion review. Whether you voted to keep or delete, I invite your input at the DRV discussion[6]. Thanks! :)

— Adrian Lamo ·· 04:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ISBN

This is regarding your edits at the following page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_English_words_of_Tamil_origin


1. What if the book does not have ISBN. Is it not reputative or authoritative.

2. 90 % of books published in India do not have ISBN. Books publihsed before 1970 do not have ISBN. What to do for such books.

3. Do you mean to say that a book is not authoritative if it does not have ISBN.

4. What is the ISBN of the Hebrew and Greek Bible

5. There has been enough evidence given for the Origin of the word ginger. Can we know you level of Knowledge in Dravidian languages that gives you the ability to pass judgement about Tamil Words Doctor Bruno 16:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your reversions

Look at this [7]. 158.91.206.205 is the IP I used before I was registered. The date did not seem right to me so I researched the date the language was extinct and it was the eighteenth century not the 1800s. The writer must have been confused. I just found that you gave me a warning here [8] for correcting it. It was changed back but if you still think it is incorrect tell me.Tim Q. Wells 01:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish language

Hi Hraefen, I am also interested in contributing to issues on Spanish language and etymology so if you like we can exchange ifo POV. I have just found the article you have created/contributed to :"List of Spanish Words of Arabic origin", I was trying to create another page of similar content. Doing so is very hard, it is nearly impossible to find all words of arabic origin and have never found a complete list anywhere. What is the aim of this article? Is it supposed to include ALL Spanish words of arabic origin or just an example of some? In any case, the list, in its present state offers only a fraction.--Guzman ramirez 09:39, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Cool thanks Hraefen. I dont know if you know any Spanish but a site that can help (its helpful as only one source is needed) is the Real Academia de la Lengua Española www.rae.es which is the official and ultimate source on Spanish etymology. When u are in the site, you have to click on "Diccionario de la lengua Española" on the top right of your screen. Once you are in, you just write the word you are interested in and it will tell you its origin.


hmm are you sure this is a proper way to proceed? Check out my page: Spanish Words of Arabic origin


Sorry for bombarding your userpage, but I have to defend the RAE: I have just checked up on esquirol and it says:

Del catalan. esquirol, y este de L'Esquirol, localidad barcelonesa de donde procedían los obreros que, a fines del siglo XIX, ocuparon el puesto de trabajo de los de Manlleu durante una huelga.

Esquirol has nothing to do with Greek. It comes from a town in Catalonia called l'Esquirol where, in the 19th century, workers carried on working during a General Strike. (an esquirol, as u surely know, means someone who breaks a strike by working.)

Believe me you can trust the RAE and it generally does not stop at the first, second or third degree of origin (if there is one).

The RAE, as the academie française for the French language, "owns" in a way the Spanish language (together with the academies of every Spanish speaking country). It is they who decide what is correct and incorrect Spanish. Any source which contradicts the RAE is simply misinformation.--Guzman ramirez 22:15, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

  • No one owns any language. The RAE has the political clout to make its influence felt in things like dictionaries and school textbooks, but etymology encompasses many languages other than Spanish. Being the most influential body in setting standards for pronunciation, vocabulary, etc. If you want to be deferential to them in all areas and take their version of the story as infallible in your own research/studies, fine. But no dictionary of etymology is 100% correct, end of story. It doesn't matter if the organization which produces it is sanctioned by a government or not. And assuming that the city of l'Esquirol is named for a squirrel (I guess I can't say for sure that it is right now), the word definitely comes from Ancient Greek.--Hraefen 22:35, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Hehehe, you know yesterday I was thinking about why you might think Esquirol comes from Greek, and I finally worked out that you probably think Esquirol means squirrel in Spanish! The Spanish word for squirrel is ardilla (pronounced ardeeyaa).--Guzman ramirez 10:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Btw, the RAE, being a website is not 100% correct, that is why it is updated every year correcting its mistakes and incorporating the results of new etymological studies.--Guzman ramirez 10:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish Linguistics

Hola Hraefen, I am interested in doing a map, but I'm leaving on Saturday to study abroad in France this summer. I'll be back at the end of August, though. Go Badgers! Fay2 17:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:NPA

I understand you have decided to take it personally that the triple metre song lists were deleted, but you need to realise that there was consensus to delete, involving multiple editors, and that the comments made in those debates were valid and went direct to policy. Numerous entries were either unverifiable (as not published in sheet music form) or wrong (asserting 12/8 as triple when it is not). Also, you may not make personal attacks. Note that if you do so, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Just zis Guy you know? 22:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Personal? Attack? I was simply spouting off to someone who seemed to be upset about the deletion as well. A little commiseration. I never brought anyhing your way, so I contend that you're the one being personal. Your side won the afd, so why do you even take the time to entertain the grumblings of the losing side? You seem to have an overly-strict interpretation of what constitutes an attack. I did not swear or call names. I simply said that you're spiteful and confrontational (which you keep proving by not letting this feud DIE) and said that your knowledge of triple meter is dated. So what? Those are criticisms of your interpersonal skills and your knowledge, both of which are things that affect content and discourse on Wikipedia (especially now that you're an admin). I thought this feud had died and I hope it does. The ball is in your court. All you have to do is not reply.--Hraefen 15:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, you were spouting off. Please don't. I am a big boy and can take a fair bit of abuse, but the people who argued in good faith for deletion of that content on grounds of firm policy are entitled to your assumption of good faith. Oh and next time you want to rake over the coals of a long dead argument, do consider not doing so. And if you must, don't blame others for starting it, inna "you-invaded-Poland" stylee. Just zis Guy you know? 22:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I guess by "rake over the coals" you mean that I made a post at someone else's talk page here, not yours. My comment there named no one specific and you had the option not to respond. And I don't buy your argument that you're doing this on behalf of "the people who argued in good faith..." With every continued post on my talk page (have I gone to yours? no) you are proving my contention that this is an axe your are grinding gleefully. What's more... it's all completely inconsequential as far as the content of Wikipedia is concerned. I've not contested the outcome of that afd and I've not made any comment to you that wasn't in response to something you brought up. So why do you keep coming back here? I obviously don't respect your opinion (is that in violation of WP:JzG is infallible?), so please (see, I can be nice) don't post here unless it concerns something of consequence. Let's see if you can respect this reasonable plea or if you need to have the last word in this matter.--Hraefen 04:34, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I agree with you about Spain

  • Hello, I agree with you about Spain being a pretty interesting country. Spain does have a lot of Germanic blood. However I think most people confuse Latin Speaking with acutally being Mediterrian while Spaniards are also Mediterrian. They are a composite of Mediterrian/ Nordics as most Spaniards say on the Ethic survey of Spain. Thanks (24.60.161.63 18:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC))
  • I'm not entirely sure what this is in reference to. So, do you have a citation for "as most Spaniards say on the Ethnic survey of Spain?" I would be very interested to see something like this. There has been some fierce debate on this very topic and I'd like to see some info that isn't from a website that has an obvious pro- White/Germanic agenda. Thanks.--Hraefen 18:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It is from the the Offical national Census of Spain Found here at the CIA world fact book:https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sp.html#People. This was one of the websites I found that published the Spanish Census. If you look under Ethic groups it shows most Spaniards agree that they are of Mediterrian/Nordic stock. What are they debating about? I think most people are confusing with acutally being Germanic with having Germanic culture and language. That what it seems like to me. Thanks.

(24.60.161.63 19:14, 28 June 2006 (UTC))

  • XGustaX what is your problem with Spaniards? Why do you want them to be German or Germanic? You have serious issues related to race... Have you ever been to Spain? Do you know anything about its history or people? The CIA factbook is not the "Official national census of Spain". And the statement that Spaniards are a "composite of Mediterranean and Nordic types" says nothing except that the CIA has not dared to divide Spaniards into ethnic groups (Catalans, Basques, Galicians, Canarians etc...) So it has simply decided to mention in this section that, as in every Mediterranean country, some people are dark and some people are blonde....how useful :-).

--Guzman ramirez 18:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

  • We are not talking about Language. We are talking realtives, which clearly they are. My sources stand Hraefen. The National census does also break people Catalans etc, into groups but in terms of language and culture not ethicity. They are all still a compostite of Mediterrian/Nordic stock. As most of Spain is mixed. I am from Spain, I know you wouldn't compare Spaniards to the Maltese who are clearly majority darker then Spaniards.((24.60.161.63 19:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC))
  • We are not talking about Language. We are talking realtives, which clearly they are. My sources stand Hraefen. The National census does also break people Catalans etc, into groups but in terms of language and culture not ethicity. They are all still a compostite of Mediterrian/Nordic stock. As most of Spain is mixed. I am from Spain, I know you wouldn't compare Spaniards to the Maltese who are clearly majority darker then Spaniards.((24.60.161.63 19:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC))

What you talking about XGustaX? Youve never been to Spain in your life. You are a Swedish Argentinian who lives in the US. You say it clearly in your User page. As for who is "darker"... I dont know and its not really an issue. Why are you obsessed with these dubious racial themes? And what national census are you talking about. There is no census that divides Spaniards on racial grounds. Not even with Roma Spaniards. Please stop spreading your own ignorance about my country I find it quite offensive. I think you should direct your opinions to an internet forum more in tune with your ideology. --Guzman ramirez 20:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bigote

  • As always, my source is www.rae.es. Get into the site, click onto "Diccionario de la lengua Española (top left) then type in the word (Bigote) in the space given and click consultar. I like this etymology. Apparently clean shaven Spaniards associated moustaches with Germans and their tendency to say "By God" all the time. Thus the word for Moustache in Spanish became bigote.--Guzman ramirez 18:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
  • No there is no word similar to bigote in French (its Moustache in French as well). It does say quizas, although in past editions of the RAE it doesnt. There is no known alternative etymology for the word Bigote and it is certainly of germanic origin.I think it should be mantained...

--Guzman ramirez 19:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

  • It is Germanic, for sure, but I really am just not buying the story offered by RAE. If RAE is not confident enough to give this etymology without the "quiza," why are you? The English word bigot shares a very similar etymology, so there seems to have been different meanings of the word in French/Old French. [9]. So, they ultimately come from a Germanic source, but this is not the same thing as saying that Spanish bigote comes from German. The problem is, the RAE did not give a date of entry. At what point in time were Spaniards and modern German speakers in a context of enough cultural contact to borrow words directly from one another?--Hraefen 20:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Ok you are right. We must be sure about the etymology. Ill see if I can find some study on the issue!--Guzman ramirez 20:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
  • When the Kingdom of Spain passed under the hands Charles I of Spain and V of Germany, the Iberian peninsula recieved a number of German soldiers from the German Holy Roman Empire. These soldiers had the custom of saluting by putting their finger on their upper lip and shouting "Bei Gott!", which was interpreted by Spaniards as the word used for moustache. Voila! --Guzman ramirez 11:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Okay. That is definitely more plausible. What's the source of this info?--Hraefen 15:00, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
  • All sources are in Spanish: I just typed "Etimología de Bigote" on google.
  • Being in Spanish is not a problem for me. The problem is, many etymologies that one finds on the internet are often either over-simplified (intermediate forms/languages are often left out) or they're straight-up incorrect folk etymologies. And ususally, if the story is really "interesting" to non-etymologists and if it is presented very matter-of-factly without mentioning the uncertainties that often go with word histories, the more likely it is to be wrong. Spanish gringo and English fuck are both good examples. Anyway... I just want to be sure that any source we use is credible, not just some random website that no scholars would try to hold to any standards. this site [10] says the term originated from "normandos (escandinavos)" which I'm assuming means they were speakers of some form of either Swedish or Old Norse/Norweigan. It's Germanic, but it's not German. Can you find a number of "reputable" sources and then we'll compare them? We might end up just giving multiple theories on this one. It's the uncertainty of etymology that can make it fun. The exact history of some words are difficult to pin down. Let's keep at it though. I'll look in "Breve diccionario" tonight when I go home.--Hraefen 23:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

So far only this one...http://reflexionesdeunhumanista.blogia.com/2006/042601-curiosidades-etimologicas.php Ill have a look for more tommorrow...

[edit] Jo Vargas refs

Hi, There's an independent wiki article at de:Jo Vargas (on inspection, the editor seems to have translated my fr.wiki article and added a little). All the material is on the Web somewhere e.g. [11], [12], [13], [14], [15] etc. Dlyons493 Talk 20:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Songs in Triple Meter

please let me know what i can do to get those lists back. Streamless 14:17, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] disambiguation pages

Does this rule apply strictly when Wikipedia doesn't have an article on the subject, though? The policy mostly makes sense, but in the case of the I remember song, a user could aptly be directed to either Damien Rice or O... so why not link both? ~ Booya Bazooka 16:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Linking to Damien Rice would be fine if O did not exist, and this method is sometimes used. But if the album exists, that's where the song is, and the album always contains a link back to the artist. The overarching idea is that the link should be as specific as possible and that once the reader uses it, any info that could have been linked on the disambig page is at the most specific link Readers should not have to debate which link is the easiest to find whatever term/concept/song etc. is disambiguated.--Hraefen Talk 17:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transfiguration of Jesus

Policy page on No Original research, paragraph 1:

  • Wikipedia is not the place for original research. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources which provide information that is directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say.

Thank you for the correction. It will be moved from the article on the event to the article on the painting. As for the sentence on interpreting divine grace, it will be moved to the talk page about the painting until resources are cited. For ease of further research, the content was added by IP address 195.188.152.12 at 11:41 on February 12, 2005. JBogdan 15:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Broken Redirects

The link that is in the hidden content is bad, therefore the redirect is showing up as being broken. Something should be done to keep the link from causing the redirect from being shown as broken, if the information in the page is useful. --Willy No1lakersfan (Talk - Contribs) 22:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I have noticed that many more of the pages that are tagged with your template are appearing as having bad redirects. If you wish for the link in the hidden text to be as an example, you may want to add tags that tell it to ignore wiki formatting, so that you can show it as an example, but it does not link. Just a suggestion. --Willy No1lakersfan (Talk - Contribs) 22:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I've actually gotten rid of the example link because if people don't know how to create a redirect page, I doubt my over-simplified instructions would help. Anyway... I stopped using the example link last week, so the redirect pages you are referring to should all be older ones. Please tell me if this is not the case. If you should choose to fix any "broken" links, please remove only the offending text, not the whole text. Thanks.--Hraefen Talk 15:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi Hraefen, you may want to use the {{R from song}} template on these redirects, placing it on the same line as the #REDIRECT text. mattbr30 16:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Cool. I will do that.--Hraefen Talk 17:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Washington, D.C. (disambiguation)

Do we really need this page with only one other item in the list??? - CobaltBlueTony 18:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Many disambig pages start this way and months later are multiple-entry, useful disambig pages. I'm about to add a third entry.--Hraefen Talk 18:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay. - CobaltBlueTony 19:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thanks for your help Hraefen. There's a lot to learn, but it's so good to have someone like you to have help! Gobazkov

[edit] Redirects from songs

Hey, is it really necessary to redirect or add to dab pages every single track on every album? In my opinion, this just clogs up disambiguation pages with non-notable songs. I think it's fine to redirect singles that do not have separate articles, but I can't imagine somebody coming to Wikipedia and entering random non-notable tracks into the search field. I think people would have the sense to search for the album if the track is not a notable single. If this was done with every album, disambiguation pages would be filled with hundreds of songs. --musicpvm 03:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Well, in my opinion, a song does not have to be highly notable to justify taking up one line on a disambig page or serving as a redirect (many of which later become disambigs or articles anyway). And disambig pages are like any other page... if they get cluttered, you make sub pages to thin them out. I think the situation where "disambiguation pages would be filled with hundreds of songs" is highly unlikely because there really aren't that many songs with the exact same name. And if that did happen, there would still be a way to organize it.--Hraefen Talk 15:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Over your head

This is free-encyclopedia. I was the one who changed the disambiguation of 'Over My Head' to the song by The Fray 'Over My Head (Cable Car).' You claimed my reason for changing was because I liked one band more. Although I do like the song the best, it is only because I have not heard the other three. I made the change for two reasons. First, none of the other three songs have articles about them. Second, The Fray's song is a currently popular single. Most likely, if somebody is searching 'Over My Head' on Wikipedia, they want the article about The Fray song, not any of the other three. But, to be fair, I made a note about the other three songs at the top of the page. I thought I did the right thing. If you give permission, I would like to change it back. If you don't, I'm okay with that, too. Free-encyclopedia 19:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

  • You don't need my permission to do anything. My reason for leaving Over My Head as a [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation|disambiguation page] is because Over My Head (Cable Car) is the full name of the song by The Fray. If someone types in "Over My Head", they'll find what they're looking for, regardless of what that might be. And even if The Fray's song is a currently popular single and the others are not, what about in 10 years? Disambiguation pages are a way to help people find what they want and I believe that's what the current setup is acheiving.--Hraefen Talk 20:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Together

I'm a bit confused by your (rather curt) note; I simply removed descriptive links on the dab page per the MoS, but I didn't touch any of the dab links themselves, such that those that are red now were red before (toward which you might see the version of the page prior to my having edited, viz. here). Feel free to write with any further questions... :) Joe 21:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Sorry if I was curt. It's just that some of the entries were over-linked before and you took care of that, but now some have zero usable links. Only an overly-strict interpretation of the MOS:Disambig allows one to conclude that an entry can only have one link, be it blue or red. I believe that one blue link or one red link and the most appropriate blue one are the two most valid options. Do you not agree?--Hraefen Talk 21:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
    • (eh, I nearly beat you with my correction; oh well...) Okay, upon a second look, I think I may have apprehended your meaning—namely, that the redlinked articles ought not, per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)#Redlinks, to be without further qualifying link—and you are quite right; I overlooked entirely that some of the pages were redlinks (the mechanism of the preview button, one gathers, is much too recondite for me) and consequently removed qualifiers that ought to have remained. My bad, and my apologies for the confusion. Joe 21:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
  • No worries. I assumed good faith on your part and I was correct in doing so. Sorry again if I was curt. Cheers.--Hraefen Talk 21:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dragon (disambiguation)

Reading over the list of entries, I can't quite see why you consider Dragon Ball inappropriate for the list, which is quite extensive and doesn't by any means include only things that are usually referred to only as "dragon"? Vashti 08:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Well, no one is going to be looking for Dragon Ball by first going to dragon: at Wikipedia:Disambiguation it says the following: "Lists of articles of which the disambiguated term forms only a part of the article title don't belong here. Disambiguation pages are not search indices. Do not add links that merely contain part of the page title (where there is no significant risk of confusion)."
    However, there are many such violations of this rule on the page and I don't care enough to weed them out, so if you'd like to re-add Dragon Ball, I won't object or revert.--Hraefen Talk 15:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
That sounds fair. I shan't re-add it. :) Vashti 16:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of United States presidential elections by Electoral College closeness

Hi there:

Back in January, you added a {{confusing}} tag to this article. Could you please review the article as it is now constituted and see if it is still confusing? If so, could you please explain how it is confusing or unclear (on the article's talk page)? If not, could you please remove the tag?

Thanks,

— DLJessup (talk) 04:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bob's yer uncle

Please see the change I made along with my edut summary. Let's discuss first if you're not satisfied with it.--Hraefen Talk 15:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't see what the problem is. I don't doubt that the song title is real. I'm just not really sure that there's much point to having a disambiguation page there - the Happy Mondays song was mentioned on in Bob's your uncle anyway. I suppose it could be a hatnote if you'd prefer that but it doesn't really matter. Having two articles under the same title (only a spelling variation) which contain the same content (one in slightly more detail) seems bizarre to me. The situation I left the article in was the same as the one I found it in except 'yer' was spelt 'your' in the title and I had corrected a few facts. I really can't see what issues this situation could raise. --Cherry blossom tree 16:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
To clarify: I'm not suggesting that Bob's yer uncle be recreated with content in some way. Howsabout we redirect and then leave the song disambig info on top? I just feel strongly that readers should never have to pile through more than a few lines of text to find what the article that is the closest to what they want.--Hraefen Talk 16:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
You mean modify the Bob's your uncle article like so and redirect Bob's yer uncle to that? Sounds fine to me.--Cherry blossom tree 16:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Yup. It's done.--Hraefen Talk 17:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Apologies

.. for reverting Punch and Judy (disambiguation), but thanks for adding the reason in your edit summary - I wasn't previously aware of that policy. Now I am! :) --Mal 19:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

  • No problem. Transparency is the best policy.--Hraefen Talk 20:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heart attack

Well done for properly disambiguating that term. I hope you understand my reasons for not disambiguating individuals songs. If we were to do that, no single article would be without a similar header. JFW | T@lk 21:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

  • IMHO, a tiny header at the top of a page does not detract from the utility or look of a page and I don't see it as a problem if "no single article would be without a similar header". If singly diambiguated terms are always removed (it's not always the same term and it's not always added by the same user), the need for a full disambiguation page may never be realized. Sorry, but I view your reaction as motivated by an overly propietary attachment to a particular "pet" article. Maybe I'm wrong about the motivation, but I don't see, in practical terms, what such disambiguation actually hurts.--Hraefen Talk 21:48, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambigs by a first name

Generally, it is not recommended to create disambigs by the first name. The reason is that such pages may have practically no limit, thus being useless. Pavel Vozenilek 23:11, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Generally, I agree with you, but I don't see Jayden or Meriel growing to an unmanagable size.--Hraefen Talk 19:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation of “Temperature”

Finally. Thanks for the disambiguation in Temperature. I was sick of looking at Sean Paul. Greg L 18:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

  • No problem. I was surprised to see that it didn't have one already.--Hraefen Talk 19:19, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Minor edit" marker

Hello, thanks for your contributions, but you should turn off the "Mark all edits minor by default" tag in your editing preferences. It is usually considered misleading when an editorial contribution is marked as minor. Only small changes (copyedits) should be marked as such. Best, trialsanderrors 22:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Yeah, I hear ya. I usually try to remember to switch the designation when it's something substantial, but I do forget, so I changed it.--Hraefen Talk 23:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sleep Tight

My apologies, as just links it looked like a page of nonsense! --Steve 06:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • No worries. I realize it looked a little weird at first.--Hraefen Talk 06:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Silver lining

I don't dispute your removal of the explanation of the English idiom "every cloud has a silver lining" from the Silver Lining (disambiguation) page (I don't like rules enough to know the controlling policy). However, many users (possibly a majority of users) who search for "silver lining" are in fact looking for the English idiom. How can we help these users? Lamont A Cranston 22:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

  • I added every cloud has a silver lining, an English idiom, a link to Wiktionary. It's not a very helpful entry, but you can go there and edit it if you like.--Hraefen Talk 22:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wake Up

I don't see the logic in including album tracks on disambiguation pages. I can understand it if a song had some kind of notability outside the album; for example, the XTC and Arcade Fire songs were released as singles. But then you relisted the Alicia Keys and Three Days Grace songs, and they aren't notable at all. Really, I'd never expect readers to look for album tracks via the search box; they'd be sure to search for the album title first, or even the artist's name. Extraordinary Machine 00:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

  • If your logic (which I don't agree with) held true, then why would a reader look "for album tracks via the search box" just because it happened to be a single? Wouldn't these readers "be sure to search for the album title first" as well? As far as notability goes, disambig pages are not subject to the kind of notability requirements that you may be thinking of. The page contains a total of nine entries right now and the average reader would be able to find what they're looking for in about 1-3 seconds. That's how I gauge the usefulness of a disambig.--Hraefen Talk 14:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
    • The difference here is that singles are far more likely to have their own articles (now or in the future) than album tracks. It doesn't matter how long readers interested in Alicia Keys (for example) would take to find the link to the article about her album on the Wake Up page, because they wouldn't be there in the first place. What's important is making it easier for readers interested in, say, the Rage Against the Machine song to find the link to that article, and having five extraneous entries on the page doesn't help. Extraordinary Machine 23:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
      • I completely agree. I stated the same thing above, and users at WikiProject Albums agreed as well. This is really very unnecessary. People will not search random album tracks; they will have the sense to search for the album. This is only cluttering up disambiguation pages. And then to create a dab page for the sole purpose of disambiguating a common word from a non-notable track from an album by an artist, both which seem not very notable themselves is ridiculous. (see Rhythm and blues (disambiguation)). --musicpvm 12:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • OK. First off, I'm a he. Secondly, I can no longer defend Rhythm and blues (disambiguation). I was over-zealous when I made that and it can be deleted for all I care. But please don't take that to be a represntative example of what I've been doing. While you guys seem to care mostly about albums, songs, music etc., the following disambigs that I've started show that what I've been doing doesn't just lie within the scope of albums, songs, music etc. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 were all created because a song title needed to be disambiguated and they now contain entries from a variety of topics. And these are not even the best examples; they're just a few that I could think of off the top of my head. There are many topics on Wikipedia (songs and otherwise) in need of disambiguation and using song titles is one way to find them. And no one has adequately answered my question from above: why would a reader look "for album tracks via the search box" just because it happened to be a single? Wouldn't these readers "be sure to search for the album title first" as well? I think that argument is either true for both types of songs or true for neither. And for all the talk of "cluttering up disambiguation pages," no one has shown me one that I made that is indeed cluttered (Wake Up, IMHO, clearly is not). There's an old saying: when you're looking for something lost, it's always in the last place you look. The same logic applies to disambig pages. If users really are interested, as some contend, only in those songs that are full-article, blue links (Wake Up (Rage Against the Machine song), Wake Up (Hilary Duff song), Wake Up (The Living End song) etc.), then why would they continue to look below these links (full-article, blue links are always on top) to all the links that you guys seem to consider "clutter". Either they do look below them or they don't, but I don't think you guys are the ones to decide whether or not they should even have the option.--Hraefen Talk 19:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You and Me

Couple of other "You and Me's" - A Wannadies song (You and Me song) and there was a childrens BBC tv show in the 70s called "You and Me" if I remember correctly. exolon 20:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Thanks. I found and added the song, but could not find the show.--Hraefen Talk 20:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Asthma Attack

You turned the Asthma attack page into a disambiguation page. Do you think I made a spelling mistake on the page? Alec - U.K. 10:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Uhhh... I'm confused. What I did to Asthma attack most recently was turn it into a redirct to asthma which then links to Asthma (disambiguation). The original disambig that I made there was done in haste and I think the current way makes much more sense. Do you not agree?--Hraefen Talk 15:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "(disambiguation)" should only be used when necessary

Maybe you know already, but for dab pages the "(disambiguation)" should only be used when necessary — for primary topic cases only. It is mentioned at WP:D#Page_naming_conventions.--Commander Keane 01:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lakes in Fillmore County Minnesota

I live in Fillmore County and don't believe there are any public water lakes in the county. Farm ponds are common. There was pit iron mining here south of Spring Valley during WWII. Those pits are on private land and are filled with water. Y1997xf11

[edit] Classic Arts Showcase (disambiguation)

I've added the "{{prod}}" template to the article Classic Arts Showcase (disambiguation), suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but I don't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and I've explained why in the deletion notice (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, or, if you disagree with the notice, discuss the issues at Talk:Classic Arts Showcase (disambiguation). You may remove the deletion notice, and the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached, or if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria. Ugly Elephant 14:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC) Go for it.--Hraefen Talk 17:39, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Can I ask when you normally create disambiguation pages? Do people usually create them only when the other articles already exist, or when it is likely that they might exist? I'm sort of confused by the whole thing. Ugly Elephant 17:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
  • There'snot a real consensus on Wikipaedia. Some people maintain they should be created only when the other articles already exist, some people do it when they think it is likely that they might exist in the future. I'm of the opinion that they should just be created and then if after six months or so, the page hasn't expanded at all, then maybe it's time to consider that it isn't needed. I've created some disambigs that I thought were pretty unlikely to be expanded much, and then, they were (see Prototype (disambiguation) and its meager beginnings). Some people disagree with this rationale, but I think they are more dogmatic than pragmatic. I would just suggest that before marking something for deletion, search around Wiki and see if it can't be expanded. Deletion is the easy solution, but very often not the best solution. Some people just don't want to put in the work. --Hraefen Talk 18:03, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I think I agree with your thinking more than the other. Thanks for the advice, it will be useful as I learn about this place. Ugly Elephant 19:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article in need of cleanup - please assist if you can

The article American English, to which you have helped contribute, has been flagged as requiring cleanup.

If possible, we would appreciate your assistance in cleaning up this article to bring it up to Wikipedia's quality standards. If you are unsure what the nature of the problem is, please discuss this on the article's talk page.
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