Talk:House of Barcelona

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[edit] House of Barcelona should be House of Aragon

Note: I moved the discussion back here --Enric Naval 17:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to change the name of the House in these articles:

Please feel free to provide reasons for/against. Wiki:Citing_sources Citing sources with Wiki:Verifiability verifiable sources, please!--Enric Naval 10:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] comment moved from Talk:List_of_Counts_of_Barcelona

The article says "In Aragonese history, this dynasty is called the House of Barcelona.". No. In aragonese history, it's called the House of Aragon. In catalan history, it's called the House of Barcelona. In english history, you can find House of Aragon on plenty places, refering both to Kings of Aragon and kings of Sicily [1] The encyclopedia of World History, 2001 sicilian history. In medieval documents, you can find "Darago" and "Casal Darago".

Particularly, I'm quite sure that there is no document of S. XVIII or sooner that mentions "House of Barcelona" when refering to Kings of Aragon, but there are tons of documents saying "Darago" (Of Aragon). Well, actually about any document mentioning the Kings of Aragon will say that. This article doesn't even mention "House of Aragon" anywhere.

I placed some arguments and verifiable sources on Talk:House_of_Barcelona --Enric Naval 20:40, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] comment moved from from Talk:House_of_Barcelona

This article should be called "House of Aragon" for the part that accounts for the Kings of Aragon. The reason is this extract of the Chronica of Ramon Muntaner (he lived in 1265-1336, but the book was edited in 1558), where it says that it is talking about the "Casal Darago" (House of Aragon).

[2] "Capitol ij. en lo qual Lautor recapta attencio dels Llectors, perço com propos a la materia de que deu parlar en aquest libre, ço es dels feyts, e proefes, del Casal Darago (...)" in which the author asks for attention (gets attention?) from the readers, because of this relating to the matter that he must talk about on this book, which is of the facts, and feats, of the House of Aragon

[3] "Capitol xxj. com lo Rey en Iacme Darago hach carta del Papa (...)" How the King James of Aragon has letter from the Pope

Please notice also that all documents from that period always talk of "King of Aragon" and/or "Darago". There is no ancient document that I know about that ever mentions "De Barcelona".

Also, the title of king had precedence because it was so accorded on the marriage of Ramon Berenguer IV to Petronila. It was also accorded that sons of them would be crowned on Zaragoza. And the kings were called "DArago" (Of Aragon) on that epoch's literature, too.

It is also ignored by wikipedists that Ramon Berenguer took the Aragon King Ramiro as father, so he became part of the Aragon house! And that aragonese legal usage said that the house could be transmitted throught by women.

I would like to see hard facts justifying why aragonese kings should be called part of the House of Barcelona. And I don't mean an article from the GREC (Great Catalan Encyclopedia). I mean proof enough to counter the fact that the very "Constitucions" of Barcelona have this same treatment. And all Aragonese Court documents, and "fueros" documents, etc. And actual whole documents, because I have seen people directly cutting relevant sentences inside a paragraph withouth saying so, changing all its meaning, and I could only notice it by looking at the original lytographies and transcriptions of the books.

I want to create a House of Aragon article and place there all Aragonese kings from Alfonso I up to the Trastamara dinasty. I don't like the actual distorsion of history on this article. Wikipedia should not be a place for catalans to hijack their neighbours' history because they feel that it's not correctly treated. It was the way it was, and it should spelled here that way.

Also, notice, that the catalan version of wikipedia is biased towards Catalonia, so please take things from there with a grain of salt. Sorry for ranting --Enric Naval 18:20, 14 July 2006 (UTC) changed --Enric Naval 20:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Note: there exists at least one Court transcription where the Consell de Cent (the catalan parliament) addresses the King as "our Count" or "Count of Barcelona" while asking for something, but the rest of time the treatment of King is preserved, and the document is signed as King of Aragon, Valencia, Mallorca, Count of Barcelona, Lord of Montpellier. I think there may be other cases. I'm sorry I can't remember the exact document. --Enric Naval 20:17, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Barcelona/Aragon, whatever

Firstly, why are you insisting that all discussion of this be on your talk page? That's a rather odd place to put it. Beyond that, "House of Barcelona" is used because "House of Aragon" doesn't really make sense. It could be used, but it could also refer to the earlier dynasty that ruled up through Petronilla, or for the branch of the Trastamaras that ruled after 1412 - this latter usage is quite common in names like Catherine of Aragon. Similarly, the Habsburgs are sometimes called the "House of Austria" (in fact, fairly frequently), but this name is not normally used because it could also refer to the preceding Babenberg dynasty. Similarly, we use "Wittelsbach," "Wettin," and "Hohenzollern" rather than the equally appropriate "Bavaria," "Saxony," and "Brandenburg," because these latter terms are not specific to the dynasty - they refer to any dynasty which ruled these territories, while "Hohenzollern" refers just to the dynasty that ruled Brandenburg from the 15th century on. The term "House of Barcelona" is not as common, but is used, and specifies which dynasty is meant in a way that "House of Aragon" does not. john k 12:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion moved to my user page: I saw on other pages that some discussions were moved by administrators to the talk page of a user because "it didn't belong on the article". Since the change I'm proposing affects several pages, I thought I should put all in a centralized page, to prevent repeating the same arguments on every single affected page. What do you propose as an alternative? Would it be better to use only the discussion page of House of Barcelona and point everything there? Should I put the pointers to my talk page but not say "have all discussion here"? I put pointers on those pages because I thought that very little people would be watching House of Barcelona (seems a small, young page) and they would only notice when I tried to update the pointers on their pages and would complain about not knowing about it. I'm not sure about the conventions on this. Sorry if I did wrong. Please tell me the correct way.
Talk:House of Barcelona would likely have more people watching it than there are people watching your talk page, I should think, and is a perfectly appropriate place. Putting notes at the other pages to indicate a discussion there would have been appropriate. Usually discussions moved to user talk pages are ones that are not about the article at all, and often are ones that are starting to get personal in some way. We shouldn't be discussing this question here, at any rate. john k 16:32, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, you're totally right. I'm moving the argument back to House of Barcelona. --Enric Naval 17:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
House of Barcelona makes more sense: The term "House of Barcelona" seems to appear on catalan historiography around S. XVIII, so I'm afraid it was not intended to distinguish any confusion, but to propel a certain point of view of history and give more importance to Catalonia than it actually had at that point. I think that it was never intended to distinguish a dinasty. So, House of Barcelona is not only not common, it also seems to be made up post-facto, and used only on biased sources. I'd name it "House of Aragon", which is the name most correct according to actual history, and put a warning on the article that it appears as "House of Barcelona" on catalan history. I'm not sure that it is widely used out of catalan historiography. Does anyone have any actual verifiable sources or any research that House of Barcelona is used out of catalan historiography, or that it has more usage than House of Aragon on medieval research? Please excuse my insistance. I insist on verifiability, because I have seen too many deliberately biased paraphrases from medieval texts.
The issue is what is used in English, I should think. And the "House of Barcelona" is not called that to make Catalonia more important (although of course Catalonia was more important than poor, mountainous Aragon), but because the family which ruled Aragon from 1162 to 1410 had previously been the ruling family of the County of Barcelona. Why should a family which was only one of three (or four, if you include the Habsburgs) to rule over Aragon be called the "House of Aragon"? The family was not a native Aragonese one, and it ruled over other territories (namely, the County of Barcelona, and perhaps Provence as well) before it got Aragon. In a few contexts (rule in Provence, perhaps, rule in Sicily, certainly) "House of Aragon" makes sense. It most certainly does not make sense when referring to it in Aragon, since it's not a native Aragonese dynasty. This is like calling the Plantagenets the "House of England". john k 16:32, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Since the title was transmited throught Petronila, and since the matrimonial contract indicates that Berenguer takes the King of Aragon as Father and Señor (Lord? Master?), then the family is native aragonese. About the inheritance of the title, notice that children from Berenguer who were not born from Petronila would not have had inheritance rights, even if they were born before than the male children from Petronila. Berenguer would only have the title if Petronila died, or had only female descendence, or her male descendence died with no succesors. Even then, the title would revert to Berenguer, not to his children. If any of these situations had happened after Berenguer's death, surely a new dispute over succession would have started, because the document overlooks this situation. The Kings of Aragon are catalan only if you overlook how the succession was accorded. This was not a normal marriage, but a "marriage at home" in Aragonese legalese. You should also know that, due to the contract, Aragon and Catalonia couldn't be separated and had to be ruled and inherited together. Not exactly two separate territories. Also, Catalonia didn't yet exist as a legal entity yet. Both Aragon and Catalonia were "The lands occupied by the people ruled by the king of Aragon", so you shouldn't say that he was ruling two separate territories. There were one single entity at the time. --Enric Naval 07:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I was wrong about the inheritance. If Petronila died withouth descendance, then the sons of Ramon Berenguer inherit, at least acording to the enciclopedia aragonesa. There is also an article on casamiento en casa, which describes as tending to the cohesión y perpetuación de la casa (cohesion and pertuation of the house). --Enric Naval 11:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Surely Aragon was montanious and poor, but it was a kingdom, which Barcelona wasn't, Zaragoza had more inhabitants at that point than Barcelona (altough it has to be inferred from sparse documents), Aragon had more territory and inhabitants, and maritim trade on Barcelona was strangled by muslim pirates based on Mallorca, so it hadn't a great advantage for being a seaport. Catalonia didn't still include Tarragona, Urgell, Pallars nor Ribagorza. Notice also how it was accorded that Kings would be crowned on Zaragoza, not on Barcelona, and how it the title order was accorded. Please don't confuse the actual situation with the situation at that point. --Enric Naval 07:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
It's not even the correct dinasty: This belongs in another discussion, but I can't but mention it. "House of Barcelona" is not the correct Dinasty for Kings of Aragon. The proper dinasty would be "Dinasty Jimenez" (Dinastia Jimena?), since the title was purposefully transmited through Petronila. Note that the matrimonial contract was intended to preserve the House of Aragon. I have to add that all Aragon Kings before and after Berenguer are refered as "name-of-king-here of Aragon", so there weren't just "name-of-king-here, King of Aragon", so there doesn't seem to be any actual House change at all. Note that Berenguer accepts Ramiro as father, as if he was adopted, so he actually entered the Dinasty.
The title was transmitted through Petronilla, but that's not the same thing as house name. Your claim would seem to include the Trastamaras in the "House of Aragon" as well - after all, Ferdinand I and his successors were also "Name-of-king-here of Aragon". Of course the principal title of all Kings of Aragon up through Ferdinand II was "King of Aragon." But this is irrelevant to what the dynastic name is. Dynasties are generally used to indicate patrilineal ancestry. Henry VII's claim to the English throne came through his mother, a Beaufort (and thus, through a legitimized line, a Plantagenet), but he is called the first member of the House of Tudor, and Richard III the last Plantagenet, because his house derives from his father, even if his inheritance came from his mother. For you to demonstrate your point, you'll have to show some (preferably genealogical) sources which use "House of Aragon" for this family. You'll also have to explain why this family should be "House of Aragon," but the Jimenez and Trastamara rulers should not be. (And Alfonso II and successors are most definitely not Jimenez's, any more than Edward VII and his successors are Hanoverians). john k 16:32, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I hate citing from Internet, but the library is closed now.

There are plenty of sources for people using House of Aragon for Aragon Kings, even up to Ferdinand_II_of_Aragon. Also. Pedro IV in his Cronica uses "House of Aragon" to refer to where a party was celebrated. And Ramon Muntaner on his Cronica uses it to refer to Jaume I. They never use "House of Barcelona". So "House of Aragon" is not a weird name for them, since they used it themselves.

There are also for House of Barcelona, but many less:

Note my comment about Ramon Muntaner mentioning the "Casal Darago" (House of Aragon) in S. XIII-XIV when talking of James I.

Notice that when it is talked about House of Aragon, no Dinasty is mentioned. At most, the House of Barcelona article should be called "Dinasty of Barcelona" or "Dinasty of Counts of Barcelona", or include a reference that it is sometimes used to distinguish part of the House of Aragon, especially in catalan historiography. But the Aragon Kings should be in a House of Aragon article, since this is the way they were known and have been known for a long time. --Enric Naval 07:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not agree. House of Aragon are only all those people that was Kings of Aragon, pointing this title in first position of their dominion. According to this rule, House of Aragon can be considered all people from the Jimenez family to the House of Trastamara, until Ferdinard II of Aragon. With Charles I of Castile the title of "King of Aragon" isn't in first position, always was the first position the title of "King of Castile". In the other hand, House of Barcelona are all the people with relevant titles with political power and territorial dominion over the Mediterranean, wich origin is directly from the Count of Barcelona, ie King Frederick III of Sicily or King James II of Majorca. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 20:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC) Sorry because of my poor level of English.

Count of Barciluna was "Count to the Emperor", "suzerain over Counts" with princely or margravate status.

House of Trastámara is the branch of Ivrea family or House of Castile-León

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marca_Hispanica

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Catalonia

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