Talk:Hormesis

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[edit] Yale Diva blog source

"According to the theory, a little arsenic, dioxin or radiation peppered on the spaghetti sauce may be just what we require to live long and healthy lives...

"The idea is that poisons such as arsenic are, of course, poisonous – that is, if one ingests too much they will produce sickness or death. But arsenic and other toxins in very low doses, below an amount deemed harmful, repeatedly have been shown to benefit the functions of organs, the optimal growth of the organism or longevity.

"According to scientists who favor this theory, when the human body, or cell, becomes stressed or damaged by a small amount of poison, it not only repairs the damage but overcompensates and becomes stronger than it was."

Source: Yale Diva blog -Ed Poor

[edit] Evidence requested for use of hormesis in medicine

Can someone provide evidence for hormesis being used now medically? -Pdbailey

If hormeosis is "high dose bad, low dose good" - I find this article unclear - consider AZT and Fluoridation. ("A high dose of anything is bad for you" is the usual argument of proponents.) Or consider anaesthetics. Or red wine.
If hormeosis is a general nonlinear outcome, then Petkau effect ought to be crossref'd somewhere, like after "ionising radiation". Kwantus 23:39, 2004 Dec 16 (UTC)
I don't think advocates claim hormesis works for all substances, just in certain notable cases. Also, it's very important to distinguish between hormesis, which has some scientific basis, and homeopathy which is a pseudoscience. -Firstprinciples

[edit] To user 217.112.91.118

You added: Hormesis is a heavily loaded and politicised concept in more generalised contexts, because it is not part of mainstream biology but is often used by people promoting nuclear power as an energy source. end of citation

My question: can You give us an example ? I know that the concept of hormesis can be heard from supporters of nuclear energy (i am against it myself), but the word hormesis and its concept are dicussed within biology and medecine. You can find many scientific papers concerning hormesis. for instance. please register ! it makes any discussion much easier.. Michael Redecke 23:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

An example of hormesis is vitamins and minerals. These are required for health in small quantities, but if you look at any multivitamin bottle, you will see substances that are toxic in large amounts. Specifically Vitamin A and copper. pstudier 06:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References please

The concept of hormesis is now being used to:

  • Enhance cognitive function in patients with neurodegradative diseases such as Alzheimer's disease.
  • Boost immune function to prevent diseases in people, captive-breeding populations of both ectothermic and endothermic animals and in commercial fisheries.
  • Avoid harmful tumor-promoting effects of anti-cancer drugs
I request references be provided for the preceding claims. Gleng

[edit] Is 'Theory and Philosophy' helpful?

I do not think that this section is helpful, this is not hormesis in the sense of the definition. Gleng 13:48, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I have now deleted this section. This section claimed (for instance) that body-building is an example of hormesis, without explanation, and this makes no sense in relation to hormesis as defined; the article on body-building makes no reference to hormesis. I could not find any justification for the points made hereGleng 22:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree, on a "doesn't sound like it makes sense to me" basis, since I only have only a rudimentary understand of what hormesis is. But I've copied it below, maybe it'll make sense to somebody. --Tsavage 23:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello! *waves* I'm the one that added the section. I assumed that it's self-explanatory, but it would be great to discuss why I think it's an example of it here. It is of course, not one of Toxicology, but a more general interpretation that correlates with it's description. It is largely characterized by the statements included in the introduction relating it as a general response to stressors, rather than chemical toxins, as follows:
The same has long been proposed regarding moderate ambient temperature fluctuations, regular exercise and even limited caloric deprivation, as both immune system stimulants and possible longevity factors. The hormesis model has been shown to hold for numerous other substances and environmental fluctuations. Hormesis, then, is the term for generally-favorable biological responses to low exposures to toxins and other stressors.
Was I wrong to interpret it this way? Bodybuilding and probably many skillbuildings are relevant to it looking at it as a biological modification to external stresses. Tyciol 06:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
As I understand it, the essence of hormesis is that low level exposure can have opposite effects to high level exposure, in particular that ome substances that are toxic at higher doses might be beneficial at low doses. Presumably the opposite might equally be true, but no examples spring to mind. For exercise to be considered an example of hormesis, it would have to be argued that gentle exercise is damaging but intense exercise is beneficial. The body's response to intense exercise is certainly in part a hypertrophy in response to damage, but I don't think that this can be classed as hormesis. I suppose it might be argued that gentle exercise is beneficial whereas intense exercise is damaging, but again I think that this would not be considered hormesis, as exercise involves many changes; hormesis is really about how a single discrete factor can behave differently at different dosesGleng 18:17, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Well it's certainly a difficult concept to pinpoint... perhaps I'd have better luck theorizing about aspects induced by it. Aerobic or Anaerobic metabolism for example... anyway in the case of exercise, it's always beneficial at lower intensities. Higher intensities carry more risk, but as long as they're reasonable they lead to much superior adaptation and benefits. If you get way too much, it can kill you though, if you don't have adequate recovery time or you stress yourself to the point where damage because difficult to recover from, like shattering a bone. It does behave differently at different doses, but you're right, it's certainly not a line graph kind of effect. Tyciol 17:10, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


Deleted section:

[edit] Theory and Philosophy

The idea of hormesis is actually quite frequently encountered though rarely named. Strength training and Bodybuilding, for example, are examples of hormesis.

The body's neurological recruitment of muscle fibres is increased with practice and with increasing weights, similar to the way balance and co-ordination and special skills are acquired in sports. Strength training emphasizes these types of strength gains. Learning itself, gains in intelligence and knowledge, may be thought of Hormesis, as well as forms of stress suppression.

When exercised to failure with heavy weights to induce hypertrophy, with adequate protein and rest to rebuild the fibres, the body will overcompensate and rebuild the muscle fibres larger. This leads to higher gains in strength, as larger tissues can contract harder and take more load. Due to this, efficient muscle fibre recruitment is not as necessitated by the body and mind, and will probably not be developed as much. Bodybuilding emphasizes this form of strength gain which also includes size gain, but a low strength to weight ratio. Gains in weight are not desired among athletes who do a great deal of movement or acrobatics, or who do movements that stress the joints in ways the body can not adapt.


[edit] Proposed deletion

I propose deleting the section on Medical and Veterinary Uses, as the claims are not referenced. My earlier call for references has not been answered, and I have not been able to find evidence for them.82.35.214.10 21:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I have now provisionally deleted the section below, as I think that the claims need qualification and referencing Gleng 12:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Unlike the previous deletion (above), I'm not sure pulling this out right now best serves article development. The statement is quite clear, and a passing reader/editor with the requisite expertise may well be moved to "confirm or deny". IMO, it's always a balance between making an article "better" now, and encouraging it to move ahead. WP Verifiability is core policy, however, obviously, the majority of WP articles are not referenced, and this work-in-progress nature is a...feature... Again, these seem to be quite specific assertions that can be researched, not entirely broad and general claims...? --Tsavage 21:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
NOTE: I have some interest but no expertise on this topic. If you know that this stuff is reasonably unsupportable, of course, delete it. :) --Tsavage 04:20, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that claims about a benefit for Alzheimer's disease should be made only with care; I have not found support for these, but am happy to be correctedGleng 23
14, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Deleted section:

The concept of hormesis is now being used to:

  • Enhance cognitive function in patients with neurodegradative diseases such as Alzheimer's disease.
  • Boost immune function to prevent diseases in people, captive-breeding populations of both ectothermic and endothermic animals and in commercial fisheries.
  • Avoid harmful tumor-promoting effects of anti-cancer drugs.

Controversially, some homeopathic researchers and practioners claim that their use of homeopathic preprations diluted beyond Avogadro's number (such that no molecules of the original solute are present) represent an extension of the principle. This is based on energetic concepts and is widely dismissed by science and medicine, but is accepted by energy healing practitioners and the theories of energy healing. Science similarly does not support such practices.

  • An interesting general readership article (this WP article started out based on a Calabrese press handout): The Power of Poison. Is Calabres a controversial figure? Well-known in...toxicology circles? --Tsavage 01:13, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
  • As far as I can see Calabrese appears to be a very good scientist, and well respected; his views are provocative, but the controversy seems to be about the generality of hormesis and its importance; see

Thayer KA, Melnick R, Burns K, Davis D, Huff J. Environ Health Perspect. 2005 Oct;113(10):1271-6. Fundamental flaws of hormesis for public health decisions. http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16203233

Gleng 09:59, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How about some history?

Reading this article I found it contains very little on the history of the hormesis model. You know, where did it come from? Who first proposed it and when? Under what circumstances? How was it adapted later? There is a lone sentence saying that it used to be associated with homeopathy, but that's it. --Smithfarm 07:42, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] EPA regulation

The article comments that EPA standards would be affected by a move from a linear model for carcinogens to a hormetic one. This is not the case as the difference between the standards and concentrations inducing hormesis will be several orders of magnitude. Safety standards are generally calculated by multiplying an Lowest Observable Effect Concentration (LOEC) and multiplying it by an arbitrary factor of 100 to 1000. Any change in standards will hae no effect upon induction of hormesis.

[edit] known hormesis?

I'm not sure I agree with the known hormesis examples. Vitamins have a dose response curve that looks like ( die , okay, die) which is not what the sketch is like, nor is it how hormesis is supposed to work. It's supposed to be about a small dose of a poison making you stronger because of the mild stress. That is totally different than a vitamin allowing your body to perform an essential process. The other paragraphs are confusing and don't directly relate to hormesis. I think the analogies don't add anything and the section should be removed (unless there is a known horemitic substance). If the second and third paragraphs do stay, maybe a better link could be drawn to hormesis. Pdbailey 06:50, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge radiation hormesis to this

This page is almost entirely about radiation hormesis, as such, I propose a merge between the two.Pdbailey 14:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. —Keenan Pepper 23:44, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Seems good to me too, but what will the merged page be called? Starhood` 20:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I think "hormesis" is a good name. --Pdbailey 23:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Somebody seems to have 'accidentally' deleted radiation hormesis. I have undeleted it, and removed the 'merge' tag. If you wish to delete a page you must put it up for deletion. Thanks for not abusing process.WolfKeeper 05:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the implications of radiation hormesis are sufficiently major that it deserves its own page. Since chemical & radiation hormesis are both poorly understood & appear to involve very different mechanisms (chemistry & atomic particles) they may turn out to be different in many ways. Neil craig

Neil, both have to be chemical in the end, because DNA damage can only be caused by chemical changes. ionizing radiation can ionize, i.e. make a highly reactive chemical. The same is to of highly active chemicals (that is, they are highly active). Pdbailey 04:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Chemicals ionise do they? Are you aware of a study that shows the effects to be identical? Got a cite?WolfKeeper 05:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Wolfkeeper, I'll keep it to hormesis relevant comments on this page. Regarding the latter of the above comments posted at 05 GMT I'm having a hard time understanding it. The mechanism for hormesis in either case is unknown, in fact, cases of hormesis are nearly unknown so the mechanism is going to be somewhat difficult to understand. Even the mechanism for carcinogenesis via exposure to radiation is not well understood (i.e. the radiation bystander effect) [1]. Hormesis is hormesis and chemical reactions are chemical reactions. My point above is that everything that happens in a cell is chemical and that radiation has to start some sort of chemical reaction before it can hav e an effect on a cell at all. For an introduction to our theory of carcinogenesis via radiation, I would point you to Eric Hall's Lauriston Taylor Lecture, the abstract of which appears in the link, but you really should read the article [2]. This is also an interesting article because he shows that radiation effects exist down as far as 100 mr, so I'm not sure that if radiation hormesis exists if it is worth much. Pdbailey 19:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Is there any outstanding complaint against this merge proposal? Pdbailey 13:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

This particular page was extremely useful for me. I just attended a lecture on the linear-no-threshold model, and this page told me exactly what I was looking for. I think I would have been less well-served by a long, tedious biology article. I suggest this article be kept until LNT isn't such a hot topic. -Mike

If it's not too late to chime in, I'd prefer to have Hormesis be a general article (possibly including the LNT hypothesis), and Radiation hormesis be a related (or "spin-off" article).
Radiation hormesis is a special case, a particular instance that has been well-studied for half a century. There's not much controversy on it.
Hormesis as applied to other hazards like cyanide in drinking water has been an issue in U.S. political campaigns. In other words, it's hugely controversial (if only in the non-scientific arena). --Uncle Ed 16:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-acceptance confusing

In the article's current state the Non-acceptance section is confusing. The paragraph contains a number of long sentences which are difficult to understand. For example, the following is a single sentence:

The United States-based National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurements, a body commissioned by U.S. Congress, recently released a report written by national experts in the field which states that rejected, for the sake of caution and lack of contrary evidence, radiation's effects should be considered to be proportional to the dose an individual receives, regardless of how small that dose is.

I'm not quite sure what that means. Anyone who can decipher it (and provide references) should feel justified in removing the {{confusing}} designation.

--Pjf 11:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Student: Was there a Victorian use to hormesis?

I also think some history and contextual information would be a good idea - I am doing this for a pysics project and would like to know how it is used by people in the modern world. Can anyone tell me if hospital safety pracite could be changed in the near fiture? I also heard something about the Victorians eposing themselves to radiation, beleiveing radiation to be good for them (although they did not obviously understand this idea fully) and I would like to know more about this - is this an example of hormesis?

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