Talk:Homosexuality

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	To-do list for Homosexuality:	edit - history - watch - refresh
	Further develop history sections. Summarize laws. Add more political ramifications. Add more coverage to times of persecution. Add NPOV safety/health tips section. The article is too long and needs reducing into a basic article stating what homosexuality is, with the whys and wherefores in separate sub pages. Removal of duplicated material within the article. Shorten the introduction. Change some of the existent theories from 'it is likely' to 'it has been suggested' or 'some researchers have theorized.' Add references to studies such as the following: Comparative Data of Childhood and Adolescence Molestation in Heterosexual and Homosexual Persons.

	This article is covered by WikiProject LGBT studies, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to LGBT issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, visit the project page.
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Homosexuality (reviewed version) has been listed as a good article under the good-article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a review.

Archives P.J. Gray
July 2003-August 2003 August 2003-April 2004 April 2004 April 2004-July 2004 August 2004-October 2004 October 2004-March 2005 March 2005-June 2005 June 2005-July 2005 August 2005-December 2005 January 2006-August 2006

Contents 1 Screen Actor 2 Biased Research 3 Redirect 4 Religion 5 Islam and homosexuality 6 Regarding Incidence of Homosexuality 7 Homosexuality in ancient Buddhist and Samurai practices? 8 The Roman Catholic Church 9 Brothers and Homosexuality 10 Sexual Identities Template 11 Albanian virgins 12 Erratic Russian Link 13 'Homosexuality' as a Social Construction 14 "Gay" and "lesbian" are POV? 15 FOUR different templates??? 16 New article on homosexuality in nature 17 NARTH 18 Questionable redirects 19 Is the Falun Gong homophobic 20 Article Length 21 Addition of non-visable header in the edit page 22 Treatment of Homosexuality 23 Question 24 Homosexual Obsessive Compulsive Disorder 25 About religious zealots attempting to delete the truth

[edit] Screen Actor

I click the link for "Screen Actor" on Dane Cook wikipedia page and it links here. Is that a Joke? Some how i dont feel it should link here

I believe you would be correct. Some child with too much time on their hands deliberately vandalized the article. Happens all the time, really. E. Sn0 =31337= 23:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biased Research

I don't even understand why we emphasize this research from the 60's: "In my entire experience, I have never interviewed a single male homosexual who had a constructive, loving father. A son who has a loving father who respects him does not become a homosexual." Clearly the issue of "loving father" is biased and represents a subjective point of view. Moreover I just don't think you can trust studies from the super-Christian 60's to provide honest science.

What do you expect from a page that so prominently relies upon the completely and utterly debunked Kinsey studies? --Theadversary 19:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The burden of proof is upon you to show this study is debunked. And who's to say there's no better scientific study that does in fact hold its water? E. Sn0 =31337= 22:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect

Searching for "JESUS" redirects here. Matt714 04:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems to go to the right entry to me, today, anyway. Are you still seeing that? --Rschmertz 02:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

The article does not mention a christian's point of view. The bible clearly states that homosexuals are far from god and possibly beyond salvation. Someone please add this line in the article. Thank you. 134.106.199.30 09:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if you'd bothered to *read* (not to mention sign your name) you might have noticed the rather large section on "Religion" in the article, or the link to the topic "religion and homosexuality" which quite clearly covers Christian perspectives -- from the liberal and tolerant, to the conservative and fundamentalist. Before you go whining on talk pages about your POV not being represented, remember, this is an ENCYCLOPEDIA, not a religious text. POV's can be presented neutrally (ie. "many christian sects believe homosexuality to be proscribed behavior according to the bible,) without veering into clear POV presentation in the article (ie. "homosexuality is an abomination unto the lord and all homosexuals are wicked."). Dave 15:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC) 15:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Get a new bible. Yours is broken. This article is about homosexuality, not about religious justifications and rationalizations of cruelty to others. Christianity is based on christ, christ taught to have love and compassion for others, not hatred. Atom 12:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I was bored and what could be easier to get some attention than by putting up something controversial on the internet. I did not mean it, I'm not even religious. Just delete the whole thing. Sorry again. 134.106.199.2 16:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC) (posting from lib. IP could have changed slightly)

You forgot to mention that Christains point of view isn't the worlds view, that some people think the bible and God are just fairy tales and that having strong hateful and ignorant views based on fairy tales is in itself rediculous. Sure a Christian point of view may have a place in the article, but you speak it as if it is fact, which is rather offensive JayKeaton 10:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Christ died for ALL sins, including homosexuality. Besides, the Old Testament has got its share of suggestive gay relationships. And, 134.106.199.2, it's fine, I'm religious and I disagree with your first statement. See? I forgave you right there. Christ's word. Augustulus 01:37, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a controvercial topic, and as such it has two sides. I don't care who you side with, but I think both perspectives need to be recognized equally. This article, in my opinion, is very heavily biased on the pro-homosexual side. There needs to be more balance.Disparager 23:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not give equal time to hatred. FCYTravis 23:42, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Then how is it that you are allowed to have an account here? That was a pretty hateful thing to say. --Theadversary 19:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hatred is not a valid POV. Your ad hominem is a logical fallacy. And please do not format your comments in such a manner as to cause a horizontal scroll. It is detrimental to readability. Thank you.

P.S. there is scientific evidence that homosexuality is genetic, just like race. Homophobia is no better than racism. E. Sn0 =31337= 22:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The Christian view today is that it is a sin and you should hate gays. But a someone following what Jesus taught would know they are sinning, but they shouldn't hate them. We as Christians should love them, not become gay, but love them as a brother. Accept them, don't accept their lifestyle. You see, that's why people aren't drawn to Christianity in America. We Christians are hating, not loving. -71.224.24.99 02:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Islam and homosexuality

Tthe sentence concerning homosexuality and Islam is as follows "Islam regards love and desire for beautiful youths (adolescent men or boys) as a natural temptation for all men, sexual relations however as a transgression negatory of the natural role and aim of sexual activity". This statement is not only untrue but also contradicts itself. If such a statement is true then same sex relationships would have been regulated the same way heterosexual relationships are regulated through marriage. I would like the author(s) to cite one reference that states that such a feeling is regarded as normal in Islam. The reference quoted in the article only deals with the second half of the sentence.--Waashwal 19:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

As an aside, let me point out that the sentence does not contradict itself; it is not logically very different, I think, from the policy of the Catholic church, which recognizes homosexuality as a condition, but bans homosexual acts. But to the matter at hand... I agree with you that the first half of the sentence seems unsupported by the citation (though I didn't get through the whole article -- it's difficult to read). Furthermore, as Islam is not a monolithic religion like Catholicism, one has to be careful with general statements of Islamic doctrine. Someone may be able to dig up a writing by an Islamic scholar or two that supports the notion that desire for beautiful boys is natural, but without a sense of how well accepted such ideas are in Muslim society at large, they must at least be qualified (e.g. "Some scholars have stated that...").

Firstly, I do think that there is a great difference between recognizing something as a condition and trying but bans the practice; and suggesting that something is normal yet it is prohibited and sinful. I totally agree with you in the second point. And until supporting evidence is provided I think such a statement should removed or labeled as [citation needed]--Waashwal 15:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding Incidence of Homosexuality

After reading over this article, (and many other related articles) I still can't seem to get a clear idea of incidence. From what I understand, it is only reported that 1-5% (varying figures across different studies) of the population identifies as homosexual, or has had homosexual thoughts or experiences. However, there are a few things to take into consideration when looking at these relatively low figures:

1.) Incidence versus observation

If these statistics accurately reflected the homosexual population, then how are people getting together in the first place? There would simply be too many non-homosexual people to keep them distanced. As well, we also have to take into consideration the incidence of being closeted versus being open. This would play a large role in hindering how people manage to identify one another. I have also noticed that these figures vary quite much depending on how conservative or liberal the area is, which brings me to...

2.) Social stigmatization

Another important factor to consider is the possible levels of dishonesty in these studies, where people who may very well be classified as homosexual (or simply have homosexual thoughts or experiences) may fear persecution, or have not yet come to terms with themselves due to impeding social standards.

Thoughts? Grendel 10:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The issue of incidence of homosexuality and bisexuality is a thorny and complicated one. As with any social surveys, these studies are limited by several key factors, in addition to some issues that are specific to the study on human sexuality.

First and foremost, there's an issue of uniformity in defition. It seems trivial at first, but it is a very daunting task to define homosexuality. Are we speaking of thoughts and fantasy alone? Are we speaking of actual actions? If the latter, are we distinguishing between voluntary and situational same-sex sexual contacts? What about one-time flings? Do we count those? To get an accurate picture, one must go about the Kinsey way of using an exhaustive set of interview questions. For the most part, surveys do not have that sort of resources.

Secondly, as all surveys that rely on self-reporting do, these surveys are only as accurate as the targets are willing to be honest. Besides the social pressure and the potential adversities from disclosing one's sexual orientation, we are also dealing with self-identification. Do people who live on the low-down consider themselves as homosexual? Certain cultures do not perceive the penetrative partner in a male-male couple as gay, but do so for the penetrated partner.

Thirdly, homosexual people in the United States (and possible everywhere else) are not uniformly distributed geographically. They tend to be more concentrated in certain cities. This is not to say there aren't any gay people in the rural areas. In fact, there are plenty of us out there (and everywhere). The issue is sampling and sampling errors due to non-uniformity in distribution.

So, taken together, the accuracy of any surveys on the incidence of homosexuality must be evaluated carefully with a sharp eye to the methodology. Even then, the results must be taken as valid only for the criteria that it operated under and generalization to the entire population would be problematic.

Nevertheless, the incidence of homosexuality is not in itself a terribly useful piece of information outside of the academia. Consider that if there are only 2% of the U.S. population who're gay, there'll be still more gay people than there are residents in several states, like Rhode Island and Montanna. If the incidence of homosexuality is used as justification to deny equal rights for gay people, then all one has to do to see the absurdity of that argument is to imagine denying every citizen of Rhode Island that same right and/or protection.

Qifeng 05:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homosexuality in ancient Buddhist and Samurai practices?

If there is to be assumptions noted on homosexuality being present in ancient Buddhist and Samurai practices, I think it would be best to cite them. There shouldn't be remarks like that unless you can provide otherwise. SprSynJn 17:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

This is well-known. See Shudo. -- lazy anonymous

Not so ancient either - the formal tradition only died out in the eighteen hundreds. Haiduc 19:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

And it's exceedingly well documented. Exploding Boy 23:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Well-known? Possibly, depending on where you are. I dont know where you came up with the conclusion "exceedingly well documented" when the main article does not cite sources. The Shudo string that lazy posted does have a source, which is good. Not sure if it is valid or not, will have to look into the book to determine that. SprSynJn 18:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Roman Catholic Church

The following entry should be slightly modified:

"The Roman Catholic Church requires homosexuals to practice chastity in the understanding that homosexual acts are 'intrinsically disordered', and 'contrary to the natural law'. It insists that all are expected to only have heterosexual relations and only in the context of a marriage . . ."

The second sentence should be modified to read:

"It insists that any persons who do not intend to remain celibate should have only lawful sexual relations (that is, intercourse only within the context of marriage) . . ."

Problems with the existing entry:

1) The clumsy writing seems to imply that the Catholic Church insists on compulsory "heterosexual relations". In fact, the Church insists, first, on virginity or celibacy. Chaste (or lawful) intercourse would then be a secondary activity within the proper context of marriage.

As Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in "The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" (1986): "Christians who are homosexual are called, as all of us are, to a chaste life." (Section 12) Note the phrase "as all of us are": even those who are married are called to live chastely.

2) "Heterosexual relations" is too broad because it subsumes many sexual activities not sanctioned by the Church. That is, not all "heterosexual relations" are "chaste" in the eyes of the Church.

It is also worth noting that the Church refers to "heterosexuals" and "homosexuals" only in a heuristic sense -- that is, references in Church documents to "heterosexuals" or "homosexuals" should not be taken to imply that it regards "heterosexuality" or "homosexuality" as spiritually essential or objective conditions. As Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger wrote in "The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" (1986):

"The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation . . . the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a 'heterosexual' or a 'homosexual' and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God . . ." (Section 16)

It should thus be borne in mind that the Church's spiritual notions of personal identity are historically very different from (and incompatible with) any materialist or quasi-Freudian notions that treat desire (specifically, sexual desire) as the constitutive element of the individual.

(Also, I'm not sure that "Roman" Catholic is correct. The Catholic Church's views on "homosexuality" would presumably apply to Catholics who observe the Byzantine rite as well as those who observe the Roman rite.)

Huh...what about Byzantine rite Catholics? Are they better placed under Catholic or Orthodox as far as this question goes...or do they need their own category? I don't think we can quite say they're "presumably" in line with Rome on this. I know some Byzantine-rite Catholics are part of Axios, so... Also, anon guy, can you source the claim that the church privileges celibacy above lawful married sexuality? I remember that as being the subject of a lot of waffling and debate. Also, do you happen to know the origin of the term "homogenital"? Do you see it in official statements of the church? Also, can you give sources for the Ratzinger quotes, in case we want to incorporate them into the article? DanB DanD 17:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

    * * * * *

Hi Dan, sorry for the tardy response.

1) Virginity vs. Chaste Marriage: Augustine: "by divine law continence is preferred to marriage and holy virginity to wedlock" (De Sancta Virginitate, Oxford, 2001, p. 67); "the chastity of continence is better than the chastity of marriage, though both are a good" (De Bono Coniugali, Oxford, 2001, p. 53); "marriage and virginity are two goods, of which the second is the greater" (De Bono Coniugali, p. 55). Council of Trent: "CANON X.-If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema." Link: http://history.hanover.edu/texts/Trent/trentcom.html

2) Ratzinger quotes: "The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" in Origins: Catholic News Service Documentary Service 16, no. 22 (November 13, 1986). Or see the following: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

3) Re "homogenital": I have no idea.

4) Axios, etc.: I was simply pointing to the fact that if "Roman" in "Roman Catholic" is used to indicate a difference in RITE (Roman vs. Byzantine), then the word "Roman" is misleading (and irrelevant). Yes, there is within the Catholic Church a difference between Roman and Byzantine rites. It does not follow, however, that there is a difference in DOCTRINES. Eastern (or "Greek") Catholics hold the same doctrines concerning "homosexuality" as do Western ("Roman") Catholics. Thus, while there is a Catholic teaching about "homosexuality", it does not follow that there is a specifically "Roman" Catholic teaching. As for Axios: that has to do with the personal opinions of Orthodox Christians who self-identify as "gay" -- but it has nothing to do with church doctrine. Similary, once can find a Roman Catholic such as Andrew Sullivan who not only self-identifies as "gay", but who also speaks in favor of gay (or same-sex) marriage. But again, such personal opinions can hardly be confused with church doctrine.

5) Another problem with the entry: "the Roman Catholic Church, requires homosexuals to practice chastity". I would write instead, "the . . . Church, requires those who experience homosexual desires to practice chastity". As the Ratzinger quote above shows, the Church uses the words "heterosexual" and "homosexual" to point to the character of a DESIRE, not to define the nature of a PERSON. Freudians and marketers targeting a demographic may think in terms of "heterosexuals" or "homosexuals", "heterosexual persons" or "homosexual persons" -- the Church, however, does not. As I wrote earlier, "the Church's spiritual notions of personal identity are historically very different from (and incompatible with) any contemporary quasi-Freudian notions that treat desire (specifically, sexual desire) as the constitutive element of the individual." I stress this in order to highlight how Catholic presuppositions about "sexuality" differ markedly from the presupposions implicit in almost every entry on this page.

Regards,

[edit] Brothers and Homosexuality

From the Wiki article: "In a study comparing the effects of being raised with older "brothers" and having biological older brothers, published July 26, 2006 in PNAS, Bogaert found that there was a link to homosexuality only if the older brothers were biologically related and even when they were not raised together.[10] "

Bogaert did the follow-up study because of objections that the homosexual connection could just as well be associated with social relationships as with biological effects. His finding that it doesn't affect non-biological brothers overlooks the fact that non-biologically related brothers undoubtedly have an entirely different attitude regarding jealousy, etc. between each other.

Bogaert's 1996 study was strongly criticized. Many pointed out that siblings' behavioral influence on each other, particularly the older male sibling on the younger, is the most probable cause of any statistical showing that younger male siblings were more likely to be homosexual than the average in society.

So Bogaert got grant money to do a follow-up. This time he would study male siblings where the other family siblings are adopted or from families created by re-marriage. His statistics show that in these situations there is no trend towards homosexuality. Therefore, it must be because of the mother's hormones.

Nonsense, again. For all these siblings know who is biologically connected. The emotive reaction to genetic older siblings (on the part of all family members) is bound to be different, as is their behavior towards each other. Not only is there knowledge by family members. Those outside the family know it. And the intimacy of close contact from birth is bound to differ in such situations. In fact, if you take away his biological connection, it would tend to prove the opposite, i.e., that older male siblings' dominant relation and the inner-family dynamic of desire for approval from the biologic parents may have some effect on a homosexual orientation.

Bogaert's study should lead social scientists to compare this situation with numerous studies showing the relationship between first borns and older siblings with younger ones, rather than jumping to biologic conclusions. It would be particularly interesting to see if there are studies in this area (economic success of first-born compared to subsequently born; differences in age; choice of jobs; effect on middle child, etc) involving siblings who are adopted or are re-marriages.

In other words, we are aware of trends regarding 1st, middle, final sibling, etc. regarding different types of economic and social "success." How about comparisons of biological siblings and non-biological siblings in this area? Is there any substantial comparison between the biologically related siblings and those that are not biologically related? If the non-biological siblings don't follow the same pattern as the biologically related ones, that would tend to also disprove Bogaert's argument regarding non-biological brothers

Note also, that all of this is just a wild assumption by someone trying to prove a biological connection (which no one has ever shown) by a sociologic statistic. There is no medical proof. His answer, like that of most psychologists today, is to throw up their hands and declare: "It must be [entirely] biology (including chemistry) because we were so wrong when we declared homosexuality to be a mental disorder."

Eventually, someone will figure out that like the infamous I.Q. tests that once claimed that race determined intelligence, our emotive relations with other is a bundle of many factors including biological randomness, society, and intrafamily relationships.

[edit] Sexual Identities Template

I added it again, its more insclusive now, and not simply seemingly a redundancy of the sexual orientation box, i think it should be included.. any thoughts? Qrc2006 00:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

As the person who removed it a couple of times as "not ready for prime-time," I can say that I'm pleased with the evolution of this template. It's already led me to a couple of articles I hadn't visited before. CovenantD 01:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I think three related templates on the same pages is a bit messy. Is there any way the three can be integrated? DanB†DanD 01:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Albanian virgins

The reference to Albanian virgins seems out of place with the section it's in, and with the article in general. From what I've been able to find about the practice, it has nothing intrinsic to do with homosexuality, let alone with the structure of a homosexual relationship. Has this been brought up before? --Rschmertz 04:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Hm, I'm not familiar with it, either, but it doesn't seem pertinent at first glance. I'm inclined to wait a bit for any objections, but if none seem to be forthcoming, it may as well be edited out. Luna Santin 18:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I googled it, and it seems to be mostly a way for women to get out of an arranged marriage by giving up all sex forever. That hardly seems like getting the "rights of a man" since according to what I read her sex life was just as fiercely policed afterward. DanB†DanD 20:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

They reject heterosexuality. Definitely a orientation change there. They reject the dress of women and dress as men. They may drink as men. They may smoke as men. They may own and transfer property as men. It's at least andro and perhaps butch and definitely transgendered and it belongs in this category. They are definitely living a homo life, regardless of what they do with their genitalia or not. Traditional Homosexualities Women Who Became Men Neutralaccounting 17:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

They reject ALL sexuality, homo or hetero - hence the term "Sworn Virgins". The social convention was apparently a response to a chronic shortage of men in Balkan society due to incessant, lethal feuding - it permitted women to renounce all sexual expression and take on the social roles of men, including smoking, drinking, playing certain musical instruments and probably most importantly, pursuing stereotypical male occupations in society such as blacksmith or weapons manufacturer. Although in some cases there may be a transgender proclivity in some who take advantage of this opportunity to switch gender roles in general, it is an asexual societal position: all sexual expression is forsworn, operationally neutering the participants. Doesn't seem to belong in a general article on homosexuality at all. - User QuantumDriel.

Here's the wiki article: Sworn virgin. Seems pretty tangential to homosexuality. DanB†DanD 18:19, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Erratic Russian Link

At the top of the list of links to WP articles in other languages, I'm seeing a link with text "Pyccknn" (latin approximation, cut me some slack) linking to something that appears to be a category or template re:LGBT or so. I can't find the Wiki markup that creates this link; can anybody help? The regular Russian link to the homosexuality article seems to be in the proper place, doing the correct thing. --Rschmertz 16:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The template LGBT had a link to the Russian category, which in turn made this page (and any other page with that template) have a link to it. I removed it. -Branddobbe 02:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Homosexuality' as a Social Construction

The article does not reflect the serious body of work that views homosexuality as a social construct, notably from Foucault. Such views, if valid, provide serious limitations to the use of such terms. 'Homosexuality' as a concept can be viewed as a historico-cultural peculiarity of 19th century attempts to classify types of person and personalities. In other times and cultures such concepts make little sense e.g. the compulsory same sex activity prevalent in the Spartan armed forces or the ritualised male fellatio in Melanesian society. Even in today's society, it's far from clear that terms such as 'homosexual' or 'heterosexual' are at all useful except, perhaps, in making casual generalisations about behaviour or preference.--Nmcmurdo 00:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Gay" and "lesbian" are POV?

Nmcmurdo,

I don't understand your objection to the sentence about the adjective 'homosexual' (you wrote: "Deleted sentence which presumes the ontological status of 'gay' and 'lesbian' - POV"). Is there really such disagreement about the meaning of these words? I confess that I don't understand what ontological means. --Rschmertz 17:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi. The sentence in question chose to draw a distinction between 'homosexual relations' and 'being' (hence the ontological reference) 'gay' or 'lesbian'. Such a distinction assumes as a premise that nature of being gay or lesbian is not behaviourally defined. This is a common view, but it is one that can be and is contested. I can't define ontological any better than Wikipedia! --Nmcmurdo 18:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm an anonymous wikipedian, but for what it is worth, I support this.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.45.168.167 (talk) 12:48, October 29, 2006

You support what? --Rschmertz 17:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FOUR different templates???

The page looks kind of crappy and disorganized now with all those different templates and portal graphics jammed up against each other. Are they really all necessary? DanB†DanD 21:12, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New article on homosexuality in nature

As a newly registered user I cannot add any part of the article I found (titled "Birds and bees may be gay: museum exhibition") to this one, but maybe someone could check out this link and consider adding a reference to this article: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10405795.

The Birds and Bees article cited a scientist: "Geir Soeli, the project leader of the exhibition entitled 'Against Nature,' told Reuters: 'Homosexuality has been observed for more than 1,500 animal species, and is well documented for 500 of them.'"

The article also explores why homosexuality occurs in nature, when it appears to be a genetic dead-end: "Still, it is unclear why homosexuality survives since it seems a genetic dead-end.

Among theories, males can sometimes win greater acceptance in a pack by having homosexual contact. That in turn can help their chances of later mating with females, he said.

And a study of homosexual men in Italy suggested that their mothers and sisters had more offspring. "The same genes that give homosexuality in men could give higher fertility among women," he said."

The "he" in that quote is also Geir Soeli.

Shannon Bullock 02:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NARTH

Please add http://narth.com/ to the list of external references —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.99.32.206 (talk • contribs).

No. NARTH is a hate group on par with Focus on the Family, American Family Association, and Family Research Council. Request denied! E. Sn0 =31337= 05:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, anyone who disagrees with the current conventional wisdom is a "hate group"? What a convenient excuse to avoid making this article more accurate and less one-sided than it clearly is. There is not ONE single article or link to a contrary source and/or POV. If this website wasn't run by a bunch of leftists -- if it was truly the neutral site it claims to be -- this entire article would be makred as a violation of NPOV. --Theadversary 18:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

How about you do a regex (regular expression, aka find-replace) of gay into african {or interracial in the case of gay marriage} to any homophobic argument, compare the result with old racist claptrap, then try to tell me homophobia isn't hate. Bigotry is not a valid POV. Thank you. E. Sn0 =31337= 22:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

"current conventional wisdom" is not what your opinion... narth, focus on the family, and AFA share the viewpoint of a very, very small minority of people at the most... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.69.136.197 (talk • contribs).

As well it should be. E. Sn0 =31337= 18:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the link would fit better on the "ex gay" page? Fitz05 20:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes it would. E. Sn0 =31337= 20:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable redirects

I was examining the redirects to this page and have picked out some that, in my opinion, are of questionable validity. However, I thought I'd get community consensus. The ones I've picked out are:

Queball
User:Mykenism (NOTE:This was set up by the user, but I don't believe user pages are supposed to redirect to article space, are they?)
Buttfuckery
Talons brain and or penis
Poofter
Steve Wisdom
That way
Yagsinujtay

Anyway, just thought I'd put this out there. - GassyGuy 05:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Poofter used to have it's own, not very good, page. It's British slang similar to faggot. The article said it was also Australian and somewhat more lighthearted than faggot, although I'm not sure of those two. Is there a page on anti-gay pejorative terms in general. If so, it should be mentioned there. I tried doing a quick search but couldn't find one. Ungovernable Force^{Got something to say?} 05:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Poofter is more lighthearted / less offensive than faggot, I've even heard gay people themselves use it to describe themselves. --cocainekongpow 15:26, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

That doesnt make it less offensive, its about the context. To be honest, I dont think most people will type "faggot" or "buttfuckery" into wikipedia for any other reason than boredom or childish humour. Fitz05 00:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Buttfuckery now redirects to Anal sex. -- Steel 15:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

And now it's back here again... -- Steel 00:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

And now that I check it, it has been deleted. It makes sense that it would go to Anal sex though JayKeaton 09:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is the Falun Gong homophobic

Some editors are having a heated debate on whether the Falun gong is homophobic. The following quotes are from the leader of this group Master Li Hongzhi.

According to Li homosexuality is the leading indicator of the depravity and regression of our society. Gays are more visible than ever and laws have been created to protect their evil life style. In Li’s poem “the World’s Ten Evils,” he states: “homosexuality, licentious desires—dark heart, turning demonic.” [1] Li’s strongest words against gays come from a lecture in Switzerland. Homosexuality was one of the factors that led to the collapse of the Greek civilization, he said. Furthermore, “Homosexuals not only violate the standards that gods set for mankind, but also damage human society’s moral code. In particular, the impression it gives children will turn future societies into something demonic.” [2] Li describes a special kind of suffering for homosexuals. They will be made to undergo a particularly slow and painful annihilation: “That person is annihilated layer after layer at a rate that seems pretty rapid to us, but in fact it’s extremely slow in that time field. Over and over again, one is annihilated in an extremely painful way.” [3]

It would be great if you could come to this page and vote your opinion here. Thanks --Samuel Luo 04:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• Going by Li's own words, there is no question whatsoever that they are homophobic to the extreme, with a possible potential for violence. E. Sn0 =31337= ^{Talk to me :D} 04:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Length

This article, although overall a well written entry, is becoming entirely too long. I understand that homosexuality (and sexuality in general) has become quite the issue as of late; I do think that there is a value in short, concise sections whenever possible, or perhaps redirects to new pages. I think we should all come to a consensus on what to cut, keep, and move. I'm more than willing to do this, but want feedback.Trodaikid1983 05:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the section of "Homosexuality and Society" deserves its own page? Fitz05 13:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

While this article can certainly be tightened up a bit it will never be among the shorter ones. Already a great many of the sections are merely abstracts of other articles. But there are some obvious candidates for removal or tightening up.

1. Physiological differences in homosexual persons - Abstract and move to Biology and sexual orientation
2. Father-son Relationships and Male Sexual Development - abstract and consolidate into Biology and sexual orientation
3. Psychology - Much of the Kinsey reports material should be consolidated there,
4. United States Military - should be moved to Sexual orientation and military service
5. Polemic - should be tightened up and citations cleaned up

There is also a great deal of work to be done providing proper citations for much valid material that lacks references. I too am willing to help with this. Haiduc 15:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The article is too long because of RECOMBINATION. For example, "History of homosexuality" was merged into this one, and now where is it?→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 10:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems like the three largest sections, Study, Society, History, could be simply split off into seperate articles. --Carterhawk 04:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Addition of non-visable header in the edit page

I've added the following tag to the "Edit this page" window:

Before you edit this page please keep in mind that this page is being watched and that vandalism will be quickly removed and tracked.

Although I understand editing is limited to registered, established users, the tag still may help. Also, I am adding this article to my watch list. I will revert blatent vandalism, but will refrain from edits until discussion is commenced. Thanks for everyone's help! Trodaikid1983 02:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Treatment of Homosexuality

I'm sick of wrestling with religious zealots over the "Behavior Modification" section in the article, I've edited the article and believe that the most NPOV way I can describe FMI is "vehemently anti-gay", it should also make the right wing POV more difficult to gain traction now that I've mentioned that the American Psychiatric Association removed Homosexuality from their DSM in 1987, leaving such supposed "treatment" to nutjob firebrand preachers with some jump cables and a car battery. (sarcasm)Izanbardprince 01:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

CovenantD, what information do you have to justify deleting that sentence. How has Paul Cameron been discredited? This I'm wondering on a personal as well as an editorial level. ---Imgi12—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Imgi12 (talk • contribs) 07:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

Read Paul Cameron (researcher). That recounts how he's been denounced by his peers, the flaws in his methodology and the selective and biased use of his "work" to promote a POV. CovenantD 07:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I see, I willingly rescind my position on posting his research. Thank you. ---Imgi12

I wish more people think as you do. Some people get angry and pursue vendettas when told their position on something is wrong. Your open-mindedness is a breath of fresh air! 22:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

E. Sn0 =31337= ^Talk has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:smile}}, {{subst:smile2}} or {{subst:smile3}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

[edit] Homosexual Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

Hi There,

Just thought it might be possible to mention HOCD at some point. For those of you who aren't aware, HOCD is a form of OCD where the suufferer, while being straight, has obsessive thoughts about being gay that cannot be resolved. This happens to both men and women, and even to some gay people (they have fears that they're actually straight!). A full defintion can be found here: [4]. If you google HOCD you can find a number of references to it in a number of places.

I think a brief mention at some point would be helpful to anyone suffering from HOCD. There is no article about HOCD on Wikipedia yet, but I'm thinking of writing one soon.

When I get around to it, I'm going to try to write an article on HOCD as well.

This condition is very complicated, stressful and susceptible to doubt (speaking from experience). The worst thing for me right now would be for someone to reply saying 'sounds like you're gay' or encouraging me to come out of the closet! Please read [5] for a gay person's perspective on HOCD.

Thanks.

Ok first of all, WTF?!?!? It sound like another thing that makes people think that there is somthing wrong with them for being gay. I say that this HOCD is somthing that people made up.--Dil 20:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

OK .... did you even read my last paragraph? Did you even bother to read the articles?? This post has only been up for 45 seconds. Please be a little open-minded. I have gay friends and am an open-minded, progressive, type with no prejudices against gays at all. Please think and research before you speak, especially when someone has implored you to do so from concerns for their own health. Please read the article by the gay guy which should give you a helpful perspective on HOCD.--Anon

I don't think something like that really belongs in the homosexuality article, plainly because calling it OCD is misleading. Many homosexuals go through times were they may doubt themselves, and heterosexuals obviously do to. OCD, by definition, is the process of repeating specific things in a routine, which the sufferer feels is necessary to live day by day. Creation of another artcile would be fine, but I don't believe it should be in this artcile. Also, please sign your discussion entries. Thanks! Trodaikid1983 20:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course I looked at the articles that you posted and I stand by what I said.--Dil 21:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I first came across it on the Wikipedia OCD page - it is actually a form of OCD. The articles I cited above and a bit of googling will show you that it wasn't 'invented' by the people at the brainphysics site. I'm not suggesting a major section, just a brief mention and a link once the page is up. I have been in contact with a number of people suffering from this and it is a real problem. I can see that there will be a barrier getting a mention to it on this page and realise that some of you may have a perspective/fears that will make the acceptance of its existence somehow threatening, but the human mind finds a lot of ways to mess with good people and this is one of them.60.241.11.74 21:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Apparently it is a recognized form of OCD. I don't see why it has any place here though. It is a form of OCD, and being Homosexual has nothing to do with OCD, or any other mental disease. As is pointed out here, and in the articles, it is when someone who is not homosexual has a compulsive concern that they may be gay, or be perceived as gay. This article is about homosexuality, not about people who have a disorder because they are afraid they might be homosexual. Atom 22:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. People with OCD obsess about lots of different stuff, and it makes no sense to mention on hundreds of articles that some people with OCD obsess about the topic. For example, it would be out of place to mention in the natural disasters article that some people with OCD obsess about natural disasters. Same for death, suicide, germs, etc. Herorev 01:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About religious zealots attempting to delete the truth

Despite your delirious notions that homosexuality is a "disease" to be "cured", the fact of the matter is that it isn't and it can't be, the more scientific studies are done on the subject, the more your lies disintegrate when exposed to the daylight.

Anyway, if you could please not resort to your usual behavior towards the truth, which is usually trying to delete it when it doesn't serve your purpose, I would appreciate it.

Anyway, the reason I reverted CC80's edit is because this is a section devoted towards "Behavior modification", I really don't see how it's "unbalanced", it mentions the techniques that have been tried (and failed) to "cure" a "disease" that doesn't exist, and I cited it properly with respected organizations, such as the APA.

Thank you, good night, and may the Flying Spaghetti Monster bless you all.

Izanbardprince 09:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)