Talk:Holy Fire

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"Local Christians - a tiny minority in a Holy Land racked by violence - certainly need something to cheer them up. But one Armenian torch-bearer, Soukias Tchilingirian, felt the truth had to be told. He said: "It's not a miracle. The Greek priests bring in a lamp - one that has been kept burning for 1,500 years - to produce the Holy Fire. For pilgrims full of faith who come from abroad, it is a fire from Heaven, a true miracle. But not for us. Of course the source of the fire is ancient and symbolic. I heard this from my father and I think he knew the truth." Miracles - the view of the sceptic (Russian) [1]

His claim relies entirely upon hearsay. He himself does not know that it is not a Miracle, he relies upon the report of his father which he supposes to be truthful.

Indeed, it would be almost more miraculous to keep a lamp burning for 1500 years. The church itself hasn't lasted that long! But really, an Armenian torchbearer is in no position to know the "truth" himself, since they never see the miracle either. No doubt it's common wisdom among the Armenians though. There must be some consolation for the events of 1579. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:05, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

To anyone who has seen this so-called "miracle," or even watched the videos, there's nothing even remotely miraculous about it. The fire acts perfectly normally, and the people exposed to it do as well. This is nothing but a pious joke. No one exposes their flesh to the flame for any appreciable length of time, and are always quite eager to switch hands, and move through the flame rapidly. - C.Neron

Contents 1 Science behind the Miracle 2 No more a miracle than transessentiation during the Eucharist 3 Skepticism 4 Orthodox Link 5 St. Elmo's Fire? 6 About the Holy Fire and the Work of the Author and Researcher Michael Kalopoulos

[edit] Science behind the Miracle

There is plenty of forensic and other analysis of 'immunity to fire' - firewalking for instance has been exhaustively written about. There seems to be no evidence submitted of modus of this miracel. Anyone enlighten us? Seems very POV at moment. Tiksustoo 22:59, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

It's simply an observed fact that pilgrims to the Holy Fire ceremony can "bathe" themselves in the flames without singeing so much as a hair -- as the photo illustrates -- so it's hardly non-NPOV to report that fact. Why this happens in this case has not been investigated scientifically (nor has the miracle itself) so there's nothing to report but the belief as to why this is possible. Note that the physics of fire-walking does not apply here, since it depends on the nature of the heat source.

I have no idea what you mean by "modus of this miracle". TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:31, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

If it is doubted that there are miracles in this world, it is a real miracle that the Holy Fire remains an unexamined miracle---after eons of its existence. --Roland 08:50, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

It has been examined, so far as the available technology over the ages has allowed. The procedures of inspecting and sealing the tomb beforehand, and the divesting and search of the Patriarch before he enters for any fire-making tools, plus eyewitness reports, were pretty much the limit of what could be done to ensure authenticity before the invention of the television camera. Now all it would take would be for someone to do it. No doubt cameras would be unwelcome inside the tomb, but an important subsidiary claim is that flames also appear spontaneously outside the tomb, lighting the candles of individual attendees. One of these has been supposedly captured on tape [2], but becuase the camera was handheld it was impossible to get a clear, steady picture in that crowd. But a large number of fixed cameras ought to be able to cover the entire floor and spot any such incidents should they actually happen. TCC (talk) (contribs) 09:13, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Csernica, for your reply. It looks so far that the examination is like that of a viewer in the audience in a theater watching a magician performing on the stage. It is understandable that stricter examinations are impossible for religious and political reasons. Otherwise, we may ask, for instance, 1.) Can we get the holy fire on days other than the Easter? 2.) Can the patriarch in the tomb chamber be observed? 3.) Can air samples be collected in the tomb chamber and the church when the holy fire occurs and chemically analyzed? 4.)Can you take any candle from outside made by anybody and get it spontaneously ignited? 5.) Can any candle from outside generate the non-burning flame? 6.) Can the candle that has generated the non-burning flame be chemically analyzed? 7.) Exactly how long can one put his finger in the flame without get burnt? 8.) What if you take the candle home and light it? Is the flame still non-burning? ...... --Roland 23:00, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

1) To my knowledge it has never been observed to occur on any day other than Holy Saturday. 2) The patriarch is observed; he's always accompanied by an Armenian bishop (with whom he is not in communion) who does not enter the tomb chamber itself, but remains in the Chapel of the Angel with a clear line of sight. There's also an eyewitness account by a monk who concealed himself in a difficult to reach niche near the ceiling and so evaded the search for fire-making material, which is always conducted by Muslims prior to the tomb being sealed and guarded (again by Muslims) in preparation for the ceremony. (I think this was early 20th century; I can't recall. It's in the source cited in the References section, not online. I can't find my copy; it may be in a box in the basement.) 3) Possibly. I don't know if this has ever occurred to anyone. It should be noted that the roof of the tomb is accessible (and plainly visible) during the ceremony and that there are open vents there communicating with the tomb chamber. 4) Yes. I believe all the candles come from outside the church in any event. The typical bundle of 33 thin white paraffin candles used by many pilgrims, as seen in the photo, are sold by street vendors. Those used by the patriarch himself are ordinary beeswax. 5) Yes. 6) Yes. 7) About 20 minutes to a half hour according to most accounts. 8) Not that I have ever heard. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:31, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] No more a miracle than transessentiation during the Eucharist

Witness the Patriarch's prayerful petition during his enclosure in the Aedicule, along with the Armenian Dragoman, and prior to the distribution of the Holy Light: [forgive the absence of proper accents or subscript iotas, and consider every semi-colon as standing for a Greek ano teleia].

"Δέσποτα Κύριε Ιησού Χριστέ, η αρχίφωτος σοφία του ανάρχου Πατρός. Ο φως οικών απρόσιτον, ο ειπών εκ σκότους φως λάμψαι, ο ειπών γενηθήτω φως και εγένετο φως. Κύριε, ο του φωτός χορηγός, ο εξαγαγών ημάς από του σκότους της πλάνης και εισαγαγών εις το θαυμαστόν φως της σης επιγνώσεως, ο την γην μεν πάσαν δια της εν αυτή ενσάρκου παρουσίας σου, τα καταχθόνια δε δια της εις Αδην καταβάσεώς σου φωτός πληρώσας και χαράς, μετά δε ταύτα δια των αγίων σου αποστόλων φως καταγγείλας πάσι τοις έθνεσιν. Ευχαριστούμεν σοι, ότι δια της ευσεβούς πίστεως μετήγαγες ημάς από σκότους εις φως και γεγόναμεν υιοί δια του αγίου βαπτίσματος, θεασάμενοι την δόξαν σου πλήρη ούσαν χάριτος και αληθείας: αλλ' ω φωτοπάροχε Κύριε: ο το μέγα φως ων, ο ειπών, ο λαός ο καθήμενος εν σκότει. Δέσποτα Κύριε, το φως το αληθινόν, ο φωτίζει πάντα άνθρωπον ερχόμενον εις τον κόσμον: το μόνον φως του κόσμου και φως της ζωής των ανθρώπων, ου από της δόξης επληρώθη τα σύμπαντα, ότι φως εις τον κόσμον ελήλυθας δια της ενσάρκου σου οικονομίας, ει και οι άνθρωποι ηγάπησαν μάλλον το σκότος ή το φως: συ Κύριε φωτοδότα, επάκουσον ημών των αμαρτωλών και αναξίων δούλων σου των τη ώρα ταύτη παρισταμένων τω παναγίω σου και φωτοφόρω τούτω τάφω και πρόσδεξαι ημάς τιμώντας τα άχραντα πάθη σου, την παναγίαν σου σταύρωσιν, τον εκούσιον θάνατον και την εν τω πανσεβάστω τούτω μνήματι του τεθεωμένου σου σώματος κατάθεσιν και ταφήν και τριήμερον εξανάστασιν, ην χαρμονικώς ήδη αρξάμενοι εορτάζειν, μνείαν ποιούμεθα και της εν Άδου καθόδου, δι' ης τας εκείσε των δικαίων κατεχομένας ψυχάς δεσποτικώς ηλευθέρωσας τη αστραπή της σης θεότητος φωτός πληρώσας τα καταχθόνια. Οθεν δη αγαλλομένη καρδία και χαρά πνευματική κατά τούτο το υπερευλογημένον Σάββατον τα εν γη και υπό γην θεοπρεπώς τελεσθέντα σοι σωτηριωδέστατα μυστήρια σου εορτάζοντες και σε το όντως ιλαρόν και εφετόν φως εν τοις καταχθονίοις θεϊκώς επιλάμψαν, εκ τάφου δε θεοπρεπώς αναλάμψαν αναμιμνησκόμενοι, φωτοφάνειαν ποιούμεθα, σου την προς ημάς συμπαθώς γενομένην θεοφάνειαν εικονίζοντες: επειδή γαρ τη σωτηρίω και φωταυγεί νυκτί πάντα πεπλήρωται φωτός ουρανός τε και γη και τα καταχθόνια δια το υπερφυές μυστήριον της εν Άδου καθόδου σου και της εκ Τάφου σου τριημέρου αναστάσεως. Δια τούτο, εκ του επι τούτον τον φωτοφόρον σου Τάφον ενδελεχώς και αειφώτως εκκαιομένου φωτός ευλαβώς λαμβάνοντες, διαδιδόαμεν τοις πιστεύουσιν εις σε το αληθινόν φως και παρακαλούμεν και δεόμεθά σου, Πανάγιε Δέσποτα, όπως αναδείξης αυτό αγιασμού δώρον και πάσης θεϊκής σου χάριτος πεπληρωμένον, δια της χάριτος του Παναγίου και φωτοφόρου Τάφου σου: και τους απτομένους ευλαβώς αυτού ευλογήσης και αγιάσης, του σκότους των παθών ελευθερών και των φωτεινοτάτων σου σκηνών καταξιώσης, όπου φως το ανέσπερον της σης θεότητος λάμπει: χάρισαι αυτοίς, Κύριε, υγίειαν και ευζωίαν και τους οίκους αυτών παντός αγαθού πλήρωσον. Ναι, Δέσποτα, φωτοπάροχε, επάκουσόν μου του αμαρτωλού εν τη ώρα ταύτη και δος ημίν τε και αυτοίς περιπατείν εν τω φωτί σου και εν αυτώ μένειν, έως το φως της προσκαίρου ζωής έχομεν. Δος ημίν, Κύριε, ίνα το φως της προσκαίρου ζωής ταύτης έχωμεν. Δος ημίν Κύριε, ίνα το φως των καλών έργων ημών λάμπη έμπροσθεν των ανθρώπων και δοξάζωσί σε συν τω ανάρχω σου Πατρί και τω Παναγίω Πνεύματι. Εις φως γαρ εθνών ημάς τέθεικας, ίνα αυτοίς τη σκοτία περιπατούσι φαίνωμεν. Αλλ' ημείς ηγαπήσαμεν το σκότος μάλλον ή το φως, φαύλα πράσσοντες. Πας γαρ ο φαύλα πράσσων μισεί το φως κατά τον αψευδή λόγον σου: δια τούτο οσημέραι προσκόπτομεν αμαρτάνοντες, επειδή περιπατούμεν εν τη σκοτία. Αλλ' αξίωσον ημάς το υπόλοιπον της ζωής ημών βιωτεύσαι πεφωτισμένους τους οφθαλμούς της διανοίας ημών. Δος ημίν, ίνα ως τέκνα φωτός περιπατήσωμεν εν τω φωτί των εντολών σου: το του αγίου βαπτίσματος φωτεινόν ένδυμα, όπερ δια των έργων ημαυρώσαμεν, λεύκανον ως το φως, ο αναβαλλόμενος το φως ώσπερ ιμάτιον. Δος ημίν ενδύσασθαι τα όπλα του φωτός, ίνα δι' αυτών τον άρχοντα του σκότους τροπούμεθα, ος μετασχηματίζεται εις άγγελον φωτός. Ναι, Κύριε, και ως εν ταύτη τη ημέρα τοις εν σκότει και σκιά θανάτου καθημένοις φως έλαμψας, ούτω σήμερον λάμψον εν ταις καρδίαις ημών το σον ακήρατον φως, ίνα δια τούτου φωτιζόμενοι και θερμαινόμενοι εν τη πίστει δοξάζομέν σε το μόνον εκ μόνου του αρχιφώτου φωτός ιλαρόν φως εις τους ατελευτήτους αιώνας. Αμήν."

Source: Nea Sion (publication of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem), vol. 62, 1967, p. 235

please cite english version of above. wiki main language is english!

I have it in English somewhere, probably in an unmarked box in my basement. However, by my very rudimentary Greek and taking into account the context, the poster of the Greek text seems to think that because the Holy Fire is mentioned in terms of symbolic meaning and theological significance that it must therefore not be a genuine miracle. In this he is mistaken. Every genuine miracle is a sign pointing to some truth. This is indeed as true for the Holy Fire as for "transubstantiation" (the word he was looking for above, but which the Orthodox Church does not use -- but I think I know what he means) but it does not mean the miracle does not also literally happen. (As indeed the bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ without changing their outward forms in the Eucharist, but I suspect the poster doesn't believe that either.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:10, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

With respect, the 'poster of the Greek text' begs to invoke John 20, 29. Were it not for the Crusades, the ancient Patriarchate of Jerusalem would scarcely have deemed it necessary tacitly to suffer the perpetuation of such a pious hoax. Incidentally, the proper orthodox term for transubstantiation is transessentiation - substance being υπόστασις, whereas it is actually a case of μετουσίωσις (q.v. Wikipedia article on the Eucharist). A translation of the Greek text into English will be provided in due course. 24 February 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.171.218.186 (talk • contribs) .

I strongly suspect, supported by anecdotal accounts, that it is precisely those who have "not seen, and yet believed" who tend to be blessed by receiving the fire directly.

Both "hypostasis" and "ousia" can be translated as "substance". As it happens, Orthodox councils have employed "metousiosis" as a direct translation for "transubstantiation", so obviously they regarded "ousia" as an equivalent for "substantio" as the Latins were using it, not "hypostasis". You'll have to excuse me if I assign them greater authority than I do you. As for "transessentiation" -- I have only been able to find it in Anglican sources when they talk about Orthodox eucharistic theology, never in Orthodox sources. I saw an occurrence of the word in a canonical commentary, but who wrote the commentary and who translated it I have no idea. TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:32, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

It's an embarrassing admission, but I just parsed "transessentiation" -- what a ridiculous word! I myself prefer "essence" for "ousia" rather than "substance" just for clarity, but this bizarre construction isn't at all useful. Although certain councils did use "metousiosis", it has not been generally received by the Orthodox in an unqualified sense anyway. (See Talk:Metousiosis) TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:42, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Skepticism

A healthy amount of skepticism is called for, but it's also not good to overstate the case.

In the case of the spontaneous ignition claims, there is the eyewitness testimony of numerous pilgrims who have both seen it and had it happen, so "no evidence" is putting it too strongly. With the video too: it does look as if fire is shooting across the room so you can't say "nothing of this nature can be discerned" -- however, it is true that the picture is far too jittery to say what is going on for certain.

"Flame baths" -- the documentary evidence is in fact ambiguous. Some say one thing, some another.

The Patriarch is not "said to be examined" he is examined. I have excised the word "carefully" though, since that's a subjective judgment.

Incandescence in the dome -- "documentation" means written records, and there certainly is ample documentation of this phenomenon. It is true that there's no clear video of it. I've seen video where something like this certainly looks like it's happening, but it looks just like a lot of camera flashes going off. Those who were there whom I've spoken to say there weren't anywhere near enough flashes going off to account for the effect, but that kind of thing is very difficult to judge so we can't take their word for it.

Some edit conflict occurred while I was editing, so I hope I picked up everything that should be retained. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I've heard it said recently (by an Orthodox bishop no less) that the Israeli government planted a hidden camera in the tomb one year and has video of the Orthodox and Armenian bishops tussling to be the one who sets his match to the lamp inside. I could find nothing to back this up, but if anyone can it would certainly be important to mention. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:38, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orthodox Link

See http://www.holyfire.org/eng/ - or better yet, go to Jerusalem and see.

[edit] St. Elmo's Fire?

Is this sourced? If not, I'll be cutting it, as it appears nonsensical. First, the church doesn't have a steeple, it has a dome. Second, the dome has not always had a gold-leafed interior, yet this phenomenon is recorded from the first millennium. On occasion the rite has even taken place while the place was completely unroofed. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:30, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I cut the paragraph. After reviewing photos, I recalled that even now the dome isn't completely gold-leafed anyway. It certainly wasn't before the relatively recent remodel was completed. The premise of the paragraph seems to be contrafactual. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About the Holy Fire and the Work of the Author and Researcher Michael Kalopoulos

Michael Kalopoulos is a great researcher and author trying to demythologize the Bible and Christianity in general, the Biblical Religion as he likes to call it. To this end he has written various papers and five books in Greek. These books have titles (translated into English): 1) The Great Lie (which is the only book of his translated into English). 2) The Armed Guile. 3) Abraham the Wizard. 4) The Theater of Salvation. 5) Miracle or Deception the “Holy Light” of Jerusalem?

We can briefly say that: Anyone who studies Kalopoulos’ books comes across a large number of imposing observations, patterns, questions, remarks, etc. Regardless of the historical value of various things the Bible presents as historical facts, all these observations, patterns, questions, remarks, etc. deal a decisive theological, ethical and social blow to Christianity as a whole and they put an end to the axiom of the divine inspiration of the “holy” Bible! The reader has to engage a lot of thinking about the numerous questions and issues that naturally and effortlessly arise from the study of these books.

His book Miracle or Deception the “Holy Light” of Jerusalem? deals with the self-lighted fire that “appears” every Holy “Great” Saturday night when it turns 12 midnight just before or a bit after Easter Sunday begins, during the celebration of Christ’s Resurrection in accordance with the eastern orthodox calendar and doctrine. (Note that: In Christianity, “the only true religion on Earth” of thousands sects and heresies, the Catholic and Protestant Easter is celebrated one week before the Orthodox Easter almost every year!). Michael explains how he has several times demonstrated experimentally that self ignited fire is easily achieved if you have the appropriate chemical substances at your disposal. He also explains how you can also control this type of fire by some other chemical bonds as to when to ignite and how much to burn. The author did not omit to refer several similar incidents of self ignited fires described in great detail in various biblical passages.

Besides the self-ignition, many claim this fire is holy for the additional reason that it does not burn you while touching it for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 minutes after the ignition. (I have happened to hear all these numbers by faithful people who have visited the phenomenon). But then we face the question that if this fire does not burn at all for the first 2 minutes, let us say, then it should not burn for the next 2 and then the next 2 and so on, by the same reason that it did not burn during the initial 2 minutes. Therefore it must never burn. But this does not happen this way at all. After some time it begins to burn your fingers. Hence the only logical conclusion is that when it stars this fire contains very low thermal energy. As time goes on it acquires enough thermal energy to the point that in 2 to 6 minutes can burn your fingers just as anything else.

Another extremely important point presented in this book is the denouncement of this thaumaturgy and theurgy by the great enlightened Greek author and researcher of international caliber Adamantios Koraes, in the 18th and 19th centuries. The denouncement of Koraes and all his arguments, data and elements are all very cogent. He was not remiss as not to provide the whole history behind this entire so called miracle from the day it started to his days. The history he presents is so clear and imposing so that no doubt can remain in anybody’s mind with impartial approach and attitude that there is a very deceptive trick behind this theurgy, which has been deceitfully devised and preserved by some especially appointed connoisseurs. That is also why the Greek Patriarch stays in a secluded vault with the doors closed so that nobody can see what happens inside while he awaits the lighting of the patriarchal candle that he holds in his hands. (One time he had to wait for several hours and he almost suffered dehydration by perfuse sweating. The trick did not go as planned…)

It is also beyond any understanding the fact that so many Muslims and Jewish of the area and so many other Christian denominations, who many times witness the “wonder”, do not convert to the Greek Orthodox Christianity, if this miracle is not spurious. Why then the Catholics and Protestants do not all switch to the Greek Orthodox Christian doctrine and faith, if the Greek Patriarch is the only divinely designated to perform such a godly wonder?!

I would like to express that this book is very important on this particular subject. I would also like to suggest that this book, as all of the other four books, be translated in many languages and be studied carefully. Regardless of how many things found in these five books you may agree or disagree with just keep in mind those you agree with. They will be sufficient to make you reconsider Bible and Christianity and see them from a totally different prospective. You will have a very interesting time until you find satisfactory answers to various questions and issues that naturally and effortlessly arise as a result of a careful study of these five books.

Ioannis M. Neoklis Philadelphos Roussos Dr and Professor of Mathematics Researcher of Christian and Biblical Issues.