Talk:Holy Chalice
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Too idiotic! Here's an (anonymous, blissfully) example of how the most preposterous non-historical assertions— as long as they are made within a Christianist context— pass for "neutral point-of-view" at Wikipedia. And some self-righteous fool will claim to be 'offended" by my scorn! An agate cup at the Last Supper? Why not gold knives and forks? "Archaeological" tests on an agate turned vessel? How are "tests" made on polished agate? A "certificate of authenticity" the entry says, like from the Franklin Mint! An inventory from the 3rd century— conveniently including in its text an explication of how it came to be made! and older than the very oldest authentic Church treasury inventory in the world! —How does this oatmeal pass for historical reality? So, when is this chalice actually first recorded at Valencia? What about its earlier record, if any, at San Juan de la Peña in Catalonia? Is this the chalice described by Arculf in Palestine? What about the other chalices from the Last Supper preserved in other church treasuries? At least two. Let's have the inventory of them too, please! This is infantile pious babble suitable for My Big Bible Coloring book. I scorn to post an NPOV or Cleanup notice, because they have been degraded. Too dreadful... --Wetman 07:57, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The Chalice of Antioch isn't a chalice--it's actually thought to be an oil lamp. It's far too big to be a chalice, for one thing--at the top, it's at least 10" in diameter. I've seen it at the Met--it's no longer at the Cloisters. And the Met says it's actually an oil lamp. --MaryJones 16:38, 1 June 2006 (EDT)
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[edit] Be careful, please
Well, you are angry, in fact... But if you claim for more rigour about historic concepts, you must be rigourous also, in your exposition: you say "San Juan de la Peña, in Catalonia", and it is "San Juan de la Peña, in Aragon", or, at least, "in Spain". And the first document referring the existence of this piece in this monastery of ARAGON is dated in 1135.
[edit] Translation comment
I take issue with the following text:
"En un arca de marfil está el Cáliz en que Cristo N. Señor consagró su sangre, el cual envió S. Lorenzo a su patria, Huesca" According to the wording of this document, the Chalice was considered the Grail in which "Christ Our Lord consigned his blood"
First, "consagró" means "consecrated," not consigned. Also, the entire passage should be translated, or trimmed so that the translated portion is equivalent to the Spanish language phrase. I translate the entire passage as "In an ivory coffer is the Chalice in which Christ Our Lord consecrated His blood, the which Saint Lawrence sent to his mother country (or fatherland, or homeland), Huesca."
Carlos X. Carlos_X 21:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Recent additions
Elonka, where are you getting this? Some of it is just wrong; Thomas Malory did not create Galahad or anything about the Grail, he took them from earlier sources. The link between the Holy Grail and the chalice of the last supper is made by Robert de Boron sometime after about 1190. I don't know about the earlier traditions you added, but I put in a Disputed tag until this is sorted out.--Cúchullain t/c 20:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, if I add something that is disputed, by all means pull it. I've been using a History Channel documentary as source, and the mix of fact and fiction is definitely tough to sort through. An exact quote of the Galahad portion is, "A proliferation of grail stories, originally part of an oral tradition, hopelessly mixed fact and fiction... Some of the most popular stories were collected and blended with Celtic and German tales by Sir Thomas Malory. Published in 1485, they told romantic tales of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. As Malory told it, when the famed sword in the stone appeared, Sir Galahad, son of Sir Lancelot, was the only knight, besides Arthur himself, who was able to pull it out. For this, he was chosen to undertake the quest for the Holy Grail. He found it after years of struggle and travail, and then died, having reached his life's goal." If you need other quotes, let me know. --Elonka 21:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Why the name?
Why is this called "Holy Chalice"? I am not an expert, but I am familiar with the sources and modern uses, and I don't see or hear this term used. It is called "Holy Grail" in English. Who would go looking for this info under this title?
--Sean Lotz 02:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- There is a separate article for Holy Grail. This one is about actual cups said to be the ones used by Jesus.--Cúchullain t/c 23:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
