Talk:Holotropic Breathwork

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Portal

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Psychology, which collaborates on Psychology and related subjects on Wikipedia. To participate, help improve this article or visit the project page for details on the project. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. Article Grading: The article has not been rated for quality and/or importance yet. Please rate the article and then leave comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

This page is almost a direct copy of the About Page on the external link given... what is the license on the source work?

I can see only a superficial resemblence. The article will use the same jargon words and so appear similar.

I agree to he merger of the 2 wikipedia articles Lumos3 15:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Merging pages 2 Reversion to NPOV criticism 3 Appropriateness of the term 'controversial' in relation to HB 4 Conflict of Interest 5 Kevin Shepherd reference 6 Academic citations of KRD Shepherd 7 Experiment vs experience

[edit] Merging pages

I have merged the page Holotropic into this page. Take note that there is some discussion on the other page's Talk page that might be of interest. I have also tried to reformulate some of the text so that it won't be seen as making unreferenced claims__meco 10:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reversion to NPOV criticism

The criticism section was neutrally worded, but the edit on 21 Sept by Lgib was not. Articles should maintain a Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. I have reverted to the earlier version, and noted the controversy in Line 1.Jedermann 13:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Reverted to NPOV criticism again. The criticism section is fully referenced at present. Lgib's paragraph is not, and appears to be an expression of personal opinion about why Breathwork attracts criticism. Discuss here first. Jedermann 13:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Following the anonymous edit on 20 October, I have reverted to NPOV criticism. More edits to follow in due course. The Communicator 17:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

__________________________________________________________

Some proposed references to flesh out the criticism section:

- Grof discusses at some length the way that he believes Holotropic Breathwork challenges traditional understandings of the physiological and psychological effects of the ‘hyperventilation syndrome’ in his article “Physical Manifestations of Emotional Disorders” (‘Exploring Holotropic Breathwork’, 2003, Kylea Taylor, editor, publ: Hanford Mead) see [1] for a summary. Since more than one of the criticisms cite the dangers of hyperventilation, this is a key area.

- The whole mystical experience vs psychosis/breakdown/brain disfunction argument probably needs teasing out in its own section, perhaps looking at Grof’s theory of ‘spiritual emergency’. There’s loads of stuff about this on the internet, but a starting point for NPOV might be ‘‘Spiritual Emergency’ – a useful explanatory model?: A Literature Review and Discussion paper” by Dr. Patte Randal and Dr. Nick Argyle on the royal college of psychiatrist’s website: [2]

- I think the final paragraph of this article is misleading. It appears to be a criticism of a research proposal for the use of MDMA in PTSD, on the basis that it is supported by people who practise Holotropic Breathwork, rather than a criticism of Holotropic Breathwork per se. The study referred to here, which does, indeed, reference Holotropic Breathwork in the research proposal, has been fully approved and is currently underway: see [3] Jablett 16:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I've contextualised this paragraph now --Jablett 10:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

WP wants ascertainable and supported facts - these are provided in the Criticism section. Editors' opinions about critics' motives are at best Original Research, at worst POV: both are non-WP. Jedermann 16:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I have reinstated the offending paragraph, in view of the reference to HB as "a potentially dangerous form of severe hyperventilation". I think the reference to MDMA is also relevant, given Grof's own background in LSD and MDMA experimentation (until these were made illegal), and his link with Doblin (as made clear in the quote from Sampson). Given this background, HB should be seen in the context of psychedelic psychotherapy, and criticisms made of the latter may often pertain to the former. The Communicator 15:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Appropriateness of the term 'controversial' in relation to HB

The use of the term 'controversial' seems unquestionable in the light of the following:

1. The decision of the Findhorn Foundation to drop HB in the light of the critical report commissioned by the Scottish Charities Office.

2. The negative press reports attendant upon number 1 above.

3. The critical remarks in a number of published books.

4. The evidently controversial way in which my original NPOV critical section has been edited and re-edited.

The Communicator 14:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Constant removal of the 'controversial' tag amounts to vandalism. Jedermann 15:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict of Interest

Dear Steve Castro, aka The Communicator. "You may cite your own publications just as you'd cite anyone else's, but make sure your material is relevant and that you're regarded as a reliable source for the purposes of Wikipedia. Be cautious about excessive citation of your own work, which may be seen as promotional or a conflict of interest. When in doubt, discuss on the talk page whether or not your citation is an appropriate one, and defer to the community's opinion." See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. Minehunter 12:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Minehunter, I am not Steve Castro, have not published any books, and therefore can declare that there is no such conflict of interest. Furthermore, I provided my own credentials some time ago (I note that you have not done the same) - I have added to that information today, which I hope will serve to distinguish me from Steve Castro and anyone else cited in the HB article. The Communicator 14:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

In which case, Communicator I apologise unreservedly. My credentials, or lack of them, are already posted below. I continue the dialogue below under Kevin Shepherd reference. Minehunter 16:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kevin Shepherd reference

There is extensive discussion questioning the reputability of Kevin Shepherd's work, which is self published, on the following wikipedia page: [[4]]. I vote that the relevant paragraph and reference be removed.--Jablett 18:39, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I imagine that the Steven Castro works are similarly self-published too. Minehunter 14:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Disagree - see below. Thanks for the reference to [[5]], where I have posted the following data. Jedermann 15:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Jedermann, you seem very well versed in this subject. Thank-you for your diligence, although I have not changed my mind - a vanity publication is still a vanity publication, even if it does get picked up elsewhere. Could you throw any light on the interesting co-incidence that Kate Thomas's real surname, so I am informed, is "Shepherd"? Minehunter 13:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I know no more about HB than any reader of this article can glean - and considerably more since the criticism section was added to the original unreferenced sales pitch. Serious concerns about safety, efficacy, competence to practice, and commercial interests have been raised, and should remain till disproven. Interesting that proponents offer no evidence to counter the concerns, but just remove caveats and criticism. And now they're so desperate they're trying to personalize the issue, instead of debating the evidence. Jedermann 19:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Jedermann, For the record I am not a proponent of HB, and I am absolutely in favour of healthy debate, critiques etc. I imagine those who are proponents will seek to counter the critiques as best they can. I assume that some of the genuinely independent criticisms will stand on the page. However, I do have concerns when I suspect that repeated interpolations on an article are from a small self-serving clique of individuals. This does not make the concerns invalid of course, but it is skewing the debate. I can approach any high street bookseller and find either copies of books by S. Grof, or fairly easily order them. I doubt the same can be said of Castro, Thomas and Shepherd. It is not that I am trying to personalise the issue per se, but in the absence of any evidence to the contrary it is becoming hard to believe that we are not witnessing violiations of Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and entries that are not far off {db-bio}. I cannot produce evidence of a negative, but I am prepared to state unequivocally that no publication of mine is referred to in any way above or on the article page, nor have I ever published any work on the subject or made any prior Wikipedia edit on it save those above. If you can say the same then I shall continue to assume good faith. Minehunter 11:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Minehunter, please see my reply to you in the 'Conflict of Interest' section above. For the record, I originally undertook to add the criticism section to this article. This was my first Wikipedia edit, and I was not asked by anybody to do it. I have a longstanding interest in the subject. As a measure of my concern I might mention that in 1994 I corresponded directly with Prof. Busuttil and Doctor Watt on the subject, having read about their criticisms. I also corresponded with the Scottish Charities Office at this time, and other medical authorities in 1995. I retain copies of all this correspondence, as well as newspaper articles. There is no conflict of interest regarding my editing of this article, although I am obviously sympathetic to the critics' position. For me, this is an ongoing work. I think that the original article was economical with the facts, either published by Grof himself or by the critics. Since WP is becoming a first point of reference for many people, I thought that these facts needed to be made known. I have recently added some quotes from Grof himself. If there is anything good to be said for HB, let those who would defend it come forward. The Communicator 15:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Communicator (somehow ‘Dear The Communicator’ does not sound right), here is where I think we agree.

1) HB is ‘contoversial’.

2) Those who do support it could assist by providing supplementary information about its merits, and it is (I think we agree) a little surprising that so far they have not done so. Perhaps they are timid souls who are put off by our robust debating style.

3) There are without doubt professional criticisms to be levelled at the practice which deserve an airing in a serious encyclopedia.

Here is where I think we disagree.

a) So far as I know neither Castro nor Thomas are professional clinicians and their thoughts do not, in my view, merit lengthy inclusions in the article. I am not sure what to think about Mr. Shepherd. Whatever his merits it seems a controversial subject in and of itself.

b) As a critic of the practice you may hold views which are antithetical to it. As a contributor to an encyclopedia it should surely be the case that you place those views to one side and seek to create a balanced article. I believe the article is increasingly skewed heavily in one direction. In fairness you have added various quotes from Grof, but nonetheless I hope you take the point.

c) I would be more convinced that these criticisms were worthy of lengthy elaboration if they were recent, more noteworthy or not simply cautionary. All bar one of the critical references are ten years old or more. None are from newspapers, magazines, academic publications, or works offered by mainstream publishers. Even more impressive would be documented cases of actual harm to practitioners of HB, as opposed to the (perhaps quite reasonable) fears of the same.

I really don’t want to get involved in editing pages whose subject matter I am not qualified to discuss, or even especially interested in, but I hope you will bear the above in mind. I am doing my best to provide balance rather than input and potential edit wars, but award myself low marks so far. Minehunter 16:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Minehunter, thank you for your comments. You raise some interesting issues, and I will endeavour to respond in those areas where you find disagreement:

a) I don't think that criticism needs to be limited to "clinical" factors. After all, Grof has made all sorts of claims in connection with HB which are really of a "spiritual" or "metaphysical" nature. Moreover, beliefs of this kind are evidently held by those who choose to undergo HB. The criticisms by Shepherd, Thomas and Castro all address the subject at this level, as well as referring to the reports by clinicians. Thomas claims to have significant experience in this field. Clinical factors are important, of course, since they are scientific and therefore the basis on which bodies such as the Scottish Charities Office make decisions. As for the "length" of the inclusions, who is to say what is of relevance to an audience? WP is not constrained in the manner of a traditional paper publication. I have only written what I believe to be essential (and relevant) in order to do justice to the critics - some readers may appreciate that level of detail. I trust that the ongoing editing of earlier sections will make the overall article look more balanced. Which brings me to ...

b) I agree that the article is skewed, particularly with regard to length of sections. The original article (not created by me) was scanty. The whole thing needs to be expanded, but I have been assuming that this would be done by someone else (perhaps the originator). I have recently considered fleshing out the earlier sections myself, and I could probably do it (I possess a number of Grof's books), but it will take some time.

c) Just as the criticisms need not be limited to clinical factors, so the dates of "metaphysical" criticisms seem less relevant than those of clinical ones. After all, that is in their nature: if HB was spiritually bad ten years ago, then it remains so, and will remain so. For instance, in the 1960s Meher Baba strongly criticised the use of hallucinogenics, even for supposedly "spiritual" purposes. His statements were gathered together in a pamphlet entitled God in a pill? Those criticisms are as relevant today as they were then and, indeed, could be applied to Grof even in his HB phase (since we are basically talking about changes to brain chemistry here). Nevertheless, I do have more recent publications and I will get to them in due course. As yet, I am not aware of more recent clinical studies, but I will look into that.

On a more personal note, since you say that you are "not qualified to discuss, or even especially interested in" the subject, what brings you to this role? I'm not sure what you mean by your "credentials" - I have entered mine under my username.

See also my comments about self-publishing below. The Communicator 17:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Minehunter, My previous reply answered you before you questioned my good faith: "I know no more about HB than any reader of this article can glean". I would have thought that makes it sufficiently plain that I cannot have published on the subject, nor could I be any of the authors cited here. Nor am I a sock-puppet for The Communicator, who is as unknown to me as I am to him. My previous edits on HB are all listed on the history page, where you will see they are confined to clarifications, and removal of unreferenced opinions about critics and their motives. I have no idea what {db-bio} is, but I am amazed that an editor with ostensibly no editing history can be so confident about WP policy in this area. However, you misrepresent Kevin Shepherd, as he appears to have consistently been involved in self publishing, for reasons clearly stated in his books, not vanity publishing. His titles are easily available from Amazon.co.uk and Blackwells online. I stopped shopping for new books in bookshops long ago, but a phone call to my local Waterstone's revealed they do not have Grof in stock. Instead of worrying about the "reputability" of Kevin Shepherd, and a non-existent "self-serving clique" in this article, you need to consider the objectivity and connexions of aggressive attempts to prevent access to any and all historically-grounded, well-articulated scholarly criticism of highly controversial subjects, such as Sathya Sai Baba. Jedermann 11:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Jedermann, I accept your statements about yourself without reservation. On the other hand, I think the distinction you make between self and vanity publishing is not especially relevant. (Wikipedia itself states "Self-publishing is sometimes difficult to differentiate from "vanity publishing""). I find it hard to imagine that you are seriously suggesting that the works of Grof and Shepherd have a similar profile in the world at large.

I also draw your attention to WP:RS which says.

A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites, and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources. Personal websites, blogs, and other self-published or vanity publications should not be used as secondary sources. That is, they should not be used as sources of information about a person or topic other than the owner of the website, or author of the book.

Minehunter, this is a complex matter. First, "difficult to differentiate" does not equate to "the same thing". Furthermore, having worked in bookselling and publishing for a number of years, I am well aware of the factors involved in publishing and marketing books. It is a commercial exercise, even in the case of academic publications. I am not denying that there is a level of professionalism associated with major publishing houses, but here, as elsewhere, a critical attitude needs to be maintained. WP notes some very good reasons for self-publishing, including the retention of editorial control. Returning to the authors in question, whether self-published or not, it is clear when they are expressing their own opinions, and equally clear when they are citing others. As far as I am aware, none of them claims to be an "expert" and, indeed, they all appear to be quite humble with regard to their abilities. Shepherd's books are unusual in content and I can well imagine how difficult it would be for publishers and booksellers to classify them. On the other hand, books about the tarot, the I Ching, astrology, UFOs, kundalini, etc. appear to have no problem finding large publishing houses, and large markets. Does that make them reputable? I don't think so. I can understand the reason for caution in WP, but it seems to me that some flexibility is required with regard to interpretation of the rules here. The Communicator 17:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The Communicator I entirely agree, and should have been more specific by referring to the Motives paragraph in Self-publishing, which underlines the need for the flexibility that you ask for:

"Publishers must be confident of sales of several thousand copies to take on a book. An otherwise worthy book may not have this potential for any number of reasons ...". Jedermann 13:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

{db-bio} is simply a speedy delete tag reserved for articles which are “about a person, group of people, band, club, company or website that does not assert the importance or significance of the subject.” This, as you can see above, approximates my view on the series of references to Castro, Thomas and perhaps also Shepherd.

I am not going to deny that I have edited WP before with another user name. This is not ideal, but I take refuge in this policy. I fear you suspect that I may have been involved in some other controversy regarding Sathya Sai Baba. That is perhaps understandable in the circumstances, but I assure you I have not.

So, my apologies to you both if you feel you have been on the receiving end of unmerited ad hominem arguments. I suggest we try to proceed on the basis of continuing good faith. Minehunter 09:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course. I look forward to reading an account of the origins and development of HB, and a summary of the clinical research. Jedermann 13:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Academic citations of KRD Shepherd

Google Book search, 22 Nov 06

The Life and Teachings of Sai Baba of Shirdi - Page 53 by Antonio Rigopoulos - 1993 "Kevin Shepherd refers Sai Baba's birth-date to circa 1850; ..."

Images of Women in Maharashtrian Society - Page 264 by Anne (EDT) Feldhaus - 1998 "... a Sufi who died in 1931 and whose tomb in the Pune Cantonment is still very popular as a religious center, is described by Kevin Shepherd in A Sufi ..."

Theologische Realenzyklopädie - Page 547 by Horst Robert Balz, Gerhard Müller - Religion - 2003 "Kevin Shepherd, A Sufi Matriarch. Hazrat Babajan, Cambridge 1985. ..."

It is clear that Kevin Shepherd's work is in good repute with academic researchers in Comparative Religion. Note that Google Book search can only search books that have been digitized by Google, and this list is therefore not comprehensive or definitive. Jedermann 15:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Experiment vs experience

Can we come up with a more accurate title for the section: "The experimental nature of Holotropic Breathwork"? HB has apparently not been researched using any experimental design in the scientific sense (correct me if I'm wrong). The colloquial use of 'experimental' (meaning, roughly, 'unresearched', 'unverified' or 'crudely empirical') can be confusing in a clinical context. Jedermann 13:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Jedermann, I think I was following Grof in the use of that term (see the quote in the relevant section). Also, some of the critics have used it pejoratively. But I take your point: to some readers it may connote the technical sense of the word. I'm not sure if there's a better alternative. "Open-ended" (also used by Grof) doesn't seem to capture the critical sense of "experimental". Roget's Thesaurus suggests "tentative" or "trial": the former also seems to lack a critical edge; perhaps the latter is the best alternative. I'm open to suggestions. The Communicator 15:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Since Grof's own words are "ongoing research project and psychological experiment", perhaps the section could be called one of the following (including the quotation marks):

* Holotropic Breathwork as an "ongoing research project and psychological experiment"

* Holotropic Breathwork as an ongoing "psychological experiment"

* Holotropic Breathwork as an ongoing "experiment"

The Communicator 01:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest 'Relationship of Holotropic Breathwork to Research'. That way you could include the Grof 'experimental' comments, a summary of the research that comes up by typing 'holotropic breathing' into scholar.google.com (does anyone contributing to this page read Russian ?!), the use of the holotropic breathwork model in the psychedelic research protocol (which is referred to in the criticism section) and proposed research into holotropic breathwork and alcoholism (see http://www.johnemackinstitute.org/projects)Jablett 17:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

'Research in HB' is probably enough to encompass (a) HB becoming a trademarked therapy without formal research into its safety and efficacy, and (b) recent attempts to investigate it experimentally.

A crude search on PubMed for 'holotropic' found:

1: Andritzky W. Holotropic respiration therapy: new ways in psychologic pain therapy. Pflege Z. 2000 Apr;53(4):243-5. German. No abstract available.

2: Zaritskii MG. A combined treatment method for alcoholic patients using medikhronal, microwave resonance therapy and holotropic breathing. Lik Sprava. 1998 Oct-Nov;(7):126-32. Russian.

3: Grof S. Human nature and the nature of reality: conceptual challenges from consciousness research. J Psychoactive Drugs. 1998 Oct-Dec;30(4):343-57. Review.

4: Quinn J. Janet Quinn, RN, PhD. Therapeutic touch and a healing way. Interview by Bonnie Horrigan. Altern Ther Health Med. 1996 Jul;2(4):69-75.

5: Zaritskii MG. The use of holotropic breathing in the treatment of chronic alcoholism. Lik Sprava. 1996 Mar-Apr;(3-4):134-6. Russian.

6: Spivak LI, Kropotov IuD, Spivak DL, Sevost'ianov AV. Evoked potentials in holotropic breathing Fiziol Cheloveka. 1994 Jan-Feb;20(1):44-8. Russian. No abstract available.

7: Spivak LI. Altered states of consciousness during treatment of neurotic disorders (attempt to use holotropic breathing methods). Fiziol Cheloveka. 1992 Mar-Apr;18(2):22-6. Russian. No abstract available.

There will be other papers inevitably, since a properly devised search strategy would include many more search terms and databases, but the only research to come up on PubMed has been published in Russian or German (1,2, 5-7). 3 looks like a theoretical paper, and 4 is an interview about Therapeutic Touch. Jedermann 10:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)