Template talk:HistoricPhoto

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This template was considered for deletion on 2006 July 23. The result of the discussion was to keep.

This template or project page is part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Fair use, a project that aims to improve and monitor fair use on Wikipedia and prevent gratuitous copyright infringement. If you would like to help, please see the project page for more information.

I changed Template:HistoricPhotoRationale from saying "The image is used for educational purposes only in a non-profit encyclopedia" to "This photograph is only being used for informational purposes" because we cannot guarantee that those using our licensed content will use it for non-commercial purposes. This is the same reason any images now uploaded under the Template:Noncommercial and Template:Copyrighted tags qualify for speedy deletion. Neither wikipedia-specific nor non-commercial claims can be made. --Jiang 21:47, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Ah, I think I see the confusion. Template:Noncommercial can't be used because that requirement isn't compatable with the GFDL. But this template is for images used under a fair use rationalle, not under the terms of the GFDL. Fair use is a separate issue. For us to use an image, it has to be released under the terms of the GFDL, or we have to claim fair use, but we don't have to do both. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 01:07, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Instead of Template:Copyrighted we have Template:Withpermission, which must be used with another fair use rationale. My concern was over the applicability of the rationale for downstream users (others wishing to use wikipedia content). According to Wikipedia:Fair_use#Downstream_use, we aren't responsible, so you're right. Perhaps point no. 2 can make this more explicit. --Jiang 01:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rationalle

I removed the request for the uploader to provide a rationalle, since the tag already includes a detailed fair-use rationalle. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 13:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure this is a good idea. Each image should have a unique fair use rationale, and in most cases, each article should have a rationale for its use of the image. Johnleemk | Talk 16:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, each image can't have a unique rationalle, since these rationalles aren't at all unique. In every case my rationalle (if this tag is appropriate on an image) would be:

• that the nature of the use is to illustrate the event in question with a low resolution copy, of no larger and of no higher quality than is necessary for the illustration of an article
• that the nature of the work is a non-reproducible historic event, where no free alternative exists or can be created, and
• that the use of the image on Wikipedia is not expected to decrease the value of the copyright

All this is already in the template. What more could be said? – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 16:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair-use assertion

I don't think the assertion here is really valid. That a photograph is of great historic interest does not, in itself, mean that the photo can be used by anyone for informational purposes. Under the four factors of fair use, it may or may not be transformative, and has to be valid for commercial use (or I think that's the policy); the work is probably not so creative, since it records an event rather than creating something new; the work should be the smallest amount necessary if the tag's instructions are followed; and it may or may not have an effect upon the work's value. Or in other words, the two more important factors (first and fourth) are totally up in the air even if the base work qualifies under the tag.

To be honest, I don't think this is salvageable as a rationale. That it's irreproducible doesn't mean you get the right to copy it. However, I'm not a lawyer, and I would appreciate others' takes on it. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the "historic" designation is being abused (and I myself might be guilty of doing that too). I believe it's really meant for images like Image:WW2 Iwo Jima flag raising.jpg. The four factors of fair use (from WP:FAIR) are:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

Usage does not have to be valid for commercial use, but is simply a question to consider when judging the proper fair use of a work. Our usage of a historic photograph cannot have a negative impact on the market value of the work, so it's been agreed-upon that low-resolution versions of the images will more likely be allowed. And as in other fair use determinations, we can't just be using the image for decorative purposes. Image:WW2 Iwo Jima flag raising.jpg I notice is being used in far too many places for my taste. howcheng {chat} 17:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The question is, what does the historical nature of the work add to the fair-use determination such that it warrants its own tag? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm unfamiliar with these fair-use policies; I was wondering if we could use this photograph to depict a modern instance of crucifixion as a means of execution? Woogums 21:50, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I would say not. Fair use for such an image seems questionable. However, if you're referring to the Armenian Genocide, images from that period are all in the public domain in the United States. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 20:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

It would go in the crucifixion article, and reference the Armenian Genocide, demonstrating the use of crucifixion in modern times. Still a no go, you think? Woogums 22:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Probably, but this discussion is more relevant to a place like Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. I suggest you continue there and bring more specific details about the photo you want to use. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 00:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The rationale is valid for many pictures. Unlike in the US, the national archive in many countries are not in public domain, but many pictures in these archives qualify for fair use as they are usually used not for profit, but rather for public education, public history textbooks, etc. Please remove the dispute statement from the template. --Vsion 05:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

First of all, we can't assume that the images are being used not-for-profit; part of Wikipedia's goal is that others can redistribute our work even commercially, as many mirrors do (see Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks). Second of all, the noncommercial nature of a use is not sufficient justification for fair use, and neither is educational purposes; otherwise, Wikipedia could use virtually anything as fair. That a work is of historical importance doesn't mean we can use it for free: the owners of the image have every right to profit from whatever they own, historical or not. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 20:59, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:HistoricPhoto

Template:HistoricPhoto has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:00, 23 July 2006 (UTC)