Talk:History of the United States

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Someone's vandalized the Civil Rights Act section.

The "End Of The Cold War" section was vandalized as well.

Contents

[edit] Pre-Colonial America typo

"Archeologists believe the present-day United States was first populated by dragons migrating from Asia via the Bering land bridge sometime between 2 or 3 years ago.[1]"

Should this read 2 or 3 MILLION years ego? The referenced article does not talk about this at all.

[edit] Starting text

I've restored the ancient text from November 2002 from the US history page. This text is going to form the bulk of a main page for the US history series, modeled after the main page of the History of Germany series. Mav and I will work on this summarized main page further from this point. 172

Sweet! I'm booked until the weekend though (day page updates takes up almost all my week day Wikipedia time). --mav 06:57 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Reading list request

There is a new school-wide program at the High School where I teach that allows me to assign outside reading to students. I am amassing a reading list of fiction and non-fiction books that relate to U.S. history. If you have any recommendations, if there are books you think *all* U.S. teens should read, please post them at my Reading List. Kingturtle 18:20, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Series table comment

The series table needs to be fixed - it is getting confused. Only articles that are daughters of this one should be in the table. Thus the Civil War entries need to be removed and a proper U.S. History daughter article needs to be created that covers that time period. The reason is simple: The Civil War is a topic onto itself, it is not a daughter of this article (which covers time periods not events). We need an article that deals with all U.S. history in that period - not just the Civil War. --mav 10:23, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] This page can be edited

I have removed comment by user on computer 67.126.203.79 from article page to this discussion page. That editor wrote: "Did you realize you can EDIT all of this information?" at 17:50 on 17 May 2005. -Acjelen 19:07, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

He must be new here! — Trilobite (Talk) 06:38, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Could someone clarify "sectional?"

I'm not a history major, so maybe sectional means something that I'm unaware of. In the last sentence of History of the United States (1776-1861)we have "the territories ceded by Mexico became the focal point of sectional tensions over the expansion of slavery." Did the author mean "secessional" or is the word sectional, as used here, a synonym for regional?

A synonym for regional. --Alex S 03:07, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Why the hell are there two U.S. history MediaWiki messages on the same page?

With one or two tiny variations they cover the same thing!! That's crazy! jengod 19:01, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] WWII Homefront

I seem to remember Wikipedia having an article on the U.S. homefront during World War II, but I can't seem to find it. Anyone seen it? -- Infrogmation 22:54, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject History/Status

I have created Wikipedia:WikiProject History/Status, which has some notes about what needs to be done to make this article featured. Please add other suggestions and see what you can to help. Tuf-Kat

[edit] Hoover/Roosevelt economics

This is a talk heading connected to my recent edit of the interwar america/world war two section. In the interest of maintaining apolitcalness, i edited the paragraph describing Hoover and Roosevelt's economics.

pre-edit:

In response to the depression, Congress and the Hoover administration enacted a somewhat isolationist Smoot-Hawley tariff and, with its public works acts, tried to fix prices for farmers, and enacted a public works program based on the belief that the federal government was obliged to maintain high employment levels. These efforts were unprecedented, but the Depression overwhelmed them: indices of prices, profits, production, and unemployment worsened.

post-edit:

In response to the depression, Congress and the Hoover administration enacted a somewhat isolationist Smoot-Hawley tariff and, with its public works acts, tried to fix prices for farmers, and enacted a public works program based on the belief that the federal government was obliged to maintain high employment levels. These efforts were unprecedented, and economists today have still not come to a consensus over the appropriateness of these policies. While some feel that these efforts did not go far enough, and were overwhelmed by the magnitude of the depression, others believe that these policies were destructive and contributed to the worsening of the depression.

Cedric Dwarf 6:45 PM UTC, Dec 28, 2004

[edit] World War I

Notice: there is no world war I, this should be remedied immediately.

Cedric Dwarf 7:00 PM UTC, Dec 28, 2004

[edit] Copy Vio?

Anyone notice that the entire wiki-History of America is based almost entirely from this site?[1]

Not entirely-- most is mine. I filled in the gaps from the LOC handbook, which is public domain. (You can also use the material from that site to fill in any gaps where you see them.) 172 04:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Maps, Pictures, etc.

Hi, It seems that there are few if any images on most of the History of the United States pages (this page has no images whatsoever). I just recently added a ton of png's of historical US flags at Flag of the United States. What do people think of my idea of sticking a few of them into this page (like one per main section to illustrate the expansion of the nation).

These pages (and most of Wikipedia history articles and articles about countries really) desperately need some maps showing what's being talked about. When I have (lots of extra) free time I may make some maps of US historical expansion. In any case, in the interrim it seems that at least some famous images of historical events (even semi-fictitious images like the signing of the declaration of independence or the crossing of the delaware) could be added (lots of the most famous images should be already on Wikipedia I would expect). Just because this is a page about history doesn't mean it must be completely devoid of color and shape.

Alright. if someone likes my idea of adding some flag pictures to this page, let me know at my talk page, please (I might not remember to check back here).

--Jacobolus 11:31, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The article needs a lot of work in general. The flag pictures should stay in the articles on the U.S. flag. Note that there is a series of subsidiary articles, which have pictures. 172 11:42, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why the hell is there a history of Islamic Terrorism link at the top of this page

Are we trying to suggest that the history of the United States and the history of Islamic terrorism are two parrallel movements. If so, then why not add a link at the top to the history of Mormonism or the history of people with really big ears. My point is that a naive reader would see this and thing that the Islamic terrorism was the only major movement to shape this country. --Stasa Mar 2, 2005

[edit] Start Date of Colonial America

I wasn't sure what the 1493 date was referring to in the section title Colonial America (1493-1776). I changed it to 1497, the year of Cabot's landing, possibly in Maine. Other possible dates might be 1513 (Ponce de Leon in Florida) or 1524 (Verrazano off the eastern seaboard). -Acjelen 21:57, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Typo?

Under "History of the United States (1849-1865)" there's the word "anti-aboloitionist" - is that a valid word at all or meant to be anti-abolitionist? (clem 20:27, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC))

No such word. I fixed it. Be bold. --Eric Forste 23:16, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
as non-English native speaker I was reluctant - I don't want to accidently skew content; if I had been sure it was incorrec I'd have changed it on the spot. (clem 18:18, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Pre-Colonial America

I'm not so sure the "Pre-Colonial" section should really be here. Aren't we talking about United States history? It's also not in the series, so as long as no one can come up with a good reason for it to stay, I think we'd better take it out.--ROY YOЯ 28 June 2005 15:14 (UTC)

It should stay. First, it is a short section, it does not dominate the article. Second, starting with European arrival seems arbitrary - there were people in the Americas before the Europeans, and, by the standard proposed above, US history wouldn't start until 1776 (or 1792, if you want to be accurate). Third, the history of the US, especially the early history, involved the succesive displacement of the Native Americans who lived throughout the continent. Just starting with the US ignores this context, and I am not sure why it would need to be deleted. Where else should this information be? --Goodoldpolonius2 28 June 2005 15:36 (UTC)

There is a such this as PRE-COLUMBIAN history, which some of Pre-colonial should be transferred into, and I added. YOu have a link to an article about it, but you don't have a section on it? Vermoskitten 03:32, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Look at the article History of Mexico. It starts with prehistoric times and moves on through preColumbian civilizations before getting to Colonial Mexico. This approach looks at anything any human ever did within the geographic boundaries of present-day Mexico.

For contrast, consider the article on the History of the Soviet Union. That article starts with the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 and ends with the breakup of the Soviet Union.

Which kind of article is this one? Closer to the History of Mexico model or closer to the History of the Soviet Union model?

Richard 08:01, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title proposal

Since this article includes history pre-dating the founding of the United States, I propose that the title be changed to "American history"...well, either that, or "History of the United States and the terrority of the United States prior to its founding". Take your pick.--Plainsong 21:14, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

History texts and papers often include information leading up to the actual event. This stuff is relevant, 2,500,000 Europeans didn't just appear out of thin air in 1776. --Goodoldpolonius2 21:34, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
You misunderstand. I don't propose that the pre-1776 sections be excised; I only want the title changed. And perhaps I should defend my suggestion a little more. Aside from the fact that the new title would be more correct, it also has the advantages of economy and familiarity (I'd submit that many more WP users type in "American history" than "History of the United States"). --Plainsong 22:53, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I think the article name is OK.
1) It is in line with the usual naming in WP: History of Portugal, History of Sudan, History of Ecuador, History of mathematics, History of art, etc..
2) American history is a redirect here, so the typing problem is solved.
Nabla 17:29:25, 2005-08-10 (UTC)
The current title seems OK. (SEWilco 18:27, 10 August 2005 (UTC))

how about History and Pre-History? Just a suggestion, may not work, but I'm thinking out loud here Vermoskitten 03:33, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

No, leave the title as is. See my comments on the topic immediately above.

Richard 08:02, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review request Joseph McCarthy

Peer review has been requested for the Joseph McCarthy article. Peer review comments should be made at Wikipedia:Peer review/Joseph McCarthy. TomerTALK 20:57, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History book references

I just wanted to leave a note about the history book references I moved from United States. Howard Zinn is a decidedly leftist author, and I don't know if the inclusion of his book here is appropriate. If we're aiming for non-partisan, scholarly references, then it should probably be removed. If we're aiming for a collection of histories from a variety of perspectives, then we should be sure to balance this with conservative and moderate accounts, make sure non-judgemental scholarly references are also available, and consider non-left/right axes of balance, as well. -- Beland 11:37, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed sentence "the United States has been historically divided"

The sentence made me think of the Koreas. We could say that the Koreas have been historically divided into North Korea and South Korea although all Koreans are effectively one people and seek to reunite as one nation. That's not what the deleted sentence was trying to say about the U.S. so I removed it and inserted the lead sentence from the historic regions of the United States article.

Richard 07:49, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oops, wrong edit summary

Oops, sorry about that last edit summary. I copied and pasted the wrong vandal IP. Should've been 24.200.62.9 (User_talk:24.200.62.9). —LonelyPilgrim 12:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Iraqi death toll (Section: 1988-present)

I believe there is an incorrect expression in this sentence: "As of early 2006, the Iraqi death toll from the invasion stands at 200 000 or more." Do you mean 200,000? I cannot verify the death toll (I don't think anyone can for that matter). Also the phrasing 'Iraqi death toll' could lead one to believe that wiki means people from Iraq. Because of the controversy involved in the death toll of Iraq it might be best to change it to say: "The death toll of civilians and soldiers as a result of the Iraq war has been growing since the outset of the war."

-- Above text was written by someone who did not leave a signature --

I agree. Whne I read the quoted sentence, I thought to myself, "Well, that is certainly very POV. 200,000 represents the high end of the range of estimated Iraqi deaths since the invasion."

The text should be reworded to make the following points clear:

1) Neither the coalition nor the Iraqis kept track of civilian deaths 2) There is no authoritative estimate of Iraqi deaths 3) 200,000 represents a high estimate of Iraqi deaths, both military and civilian. 4) All estimates of Iraqi deaths, both low and high, should be sourced

Richard 06:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I took the sentence out entirely. It doesn't fit with the rest of the paragraph which seems to detail general, ongoing issues rather than specific information about them.

--IRelayer 17:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intro paragraph & "Historic regions of the United States"

I'm confused... I thought I saw somebody complaining about the article leading off with "Historic Regions of the United States" but I can't find that comment now.

Anyway, I've always hated the "Historic Regions of the United States" text and map. Especially as the beginning part of this article.

I've copied over the intro to the United States article and made it the intro to this article. I put the "Historic Regions of the United States" stuff as the first section after the intro. If anyone feels bold enough to delete the "Historic Regions of the United States" section, I won't shed any tears.

Feel free to improve the intro paragraph that I just put in. I just figured almost anything would be better than starting off this article with "Historic Regions of the United States".

Richard 08:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is Germany REALLY a long time ally of the United States

Well. In the years 1914-1945, one would argue, not. Even the "auld enemy", the USSR, was an ally then, sometimes. In the years 1946-1990, Germany did not exist. In the years 1991 onwards, Germany was fairly neutral and did not fight any of the US's enemies. In actual fact, the United States really only has one long time ally, its mother, the United Kingdom. Wallie 16:45, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion notices

I have added expansion notices to all the chronological sections except the last two. This article was quoted in a discussion of the relative merits of the English and German Wikipedia's as an example of how in the former there is a tendency to break subjects up to the point where there is not an adequate overview of major topics. This needs massive improvement - not just an accumulation of extra facts, but real synthesis of the subject by people who know the subject, which is where Wikipedia often falls down. While the chronological framework is okay up to a point, I think it is too dominant. It is hard to see from this what the main themes of American history have been. There need to be some extra subsections, I don't want to say exactly what as I'd rather leave people who can do the work better than I could to judge how to go about it, but this article really does need a lot of work. Also, the overview, which is just a short version of the (mainly) political-chronological narrative, which isn't very long anyway, would be better replaced with a more broad-ranging summary that puts the themes of American history into context, including those that are almost ignored in the article at the moment. Sumahoy 00:44, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

What is the purpose of expanding this article. It already exceeds length guidelines and takes too long to display. Each section of this article points to another main article containing the detail for that period. The detail articles may need expansion; this article needs reduction. Article should not be expanded until, and if, Wiki is able to greatly improve its response time and article maximum size guidelines--something that does not appear to be happening. Thanks Hmains 16:22, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Its not actually that long - 30kb, close to the limit but not over. --Astrokey44 13:22, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion tags

Moved from my Talk Page

what do you think/do about the 'expansion' tags that are now placed in nearly every section of the article? Thanks Hmains 02:31, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think many of them are placed there validly. This article is a series of choppy sections that don't make for a flowing narrative. I think there is an over-reliance on the fact that there are subsidiary articles. The principle that I would apply here is that the article should be a "good read" even if there are no subsidiary articles. A quick scan of the sections gives me the sense that a few points are made here and there but without the intent of providing a flowing narrative for the reader.

Hopefully someone will volunteer to do this.

--Richard 04:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes I agree about the placement of the expansion tags. I have been trying to clean it up and add info from the section articles. It is a very difficult article to write because there are so many things to cover and it has to be kept to a reasonable size, it still needs alot of work. --Astrokey44 15:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Needs work, POV, awkward sentences, esp. Early European Settlements

"Columbus, after island-hopping for several months heard nothing of gold, his main drive for the voyage, but realized a great market of slavery could be made with these primitive, naive, and unsuspecting populations." Besides the poor construction of the sentence, the adjectives "naive" and "unsuspecting" are POV. Furthermore, Columbus' main drive for his voyage is arguable, one could also put the spread of Christianity there. But I'll leave that topic up for discussion.

"Horses became a pivotal part...creating a stereotype both to their advantage and against it, as well." Creating a stereotype? It's unclear what this means. Comments?

"The Europeans were ruthless invaders." Entirely POV. The Europeans did ruthless things. They did less ruthless things, too. Sometimes they even did good things.

Basically, I'm going to work on the sentence structure and obvious POV sections in this paragraph, and leave some of the other things up for discussion. Please keep in mind that I am acting in good faith, and if you want to change anything back, discuss it here first. KevinPuj 13:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Friction between colonists and settlers

I seem to have a history of running into rjensen who selectively deletes unsourced material that he/she disagrees with despite the existence of other unsourced material in the immediate vicinity.

I'm tired of playing the revert war with him/her and it's against Wikipedia rules anyway. So, I'm going to place the text here until I can find citations to back up the assertions. I'm sure they're out there, I just don't have time to find them right now. If you can improve this text or provide citations, your assistance would be much appreciated.

"As increasing numbers of settlers arrived in Virginia, many conflicts arose between the Native Americans and the colonists. The colonists increasingly appropriated land to farm and grow tobacco. This was the beginning of a general trend towards displacing Native Americans westward to make room for settlers. Differences of language, religion and culture also contributed to the friction between the two groups. At the base of the friction was an assumption by the English colonists of racial, cultural and moral superiority."

--Richard 20:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

the passage in question is unsourced, it is POV, and it is very likely false. It certainly is not based on reading the very solid historiography on the early Chesapeake. For example the issue surely was not the tiny amount of farmland in question -- (tobacco grows in very small plots; hunting tribes need vast areas). Wars were endemic at that time (in both Europe and America) and do not need this catalog of theoretical causes that apply to all wars in all countries in all centuries. I suggest that instead of looking for citations to support assertions, editors start the other way around: read a good solid book and summarize and cite it. Rjensen 21:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
A good book that fits your POV, I suppose. Here are some sources for the disputed text.
As English settlers crowded in, they occupied more and more of the prime coastal plain farmlands where Native American gardeners had once planted their corn, squash and beans against winter’s privation. Voluntary and forced trade squeezed the ability of remaining Native American fields to provision the tribes, and increasing conflicts between the two groups led to many deaths.

Chesapeake Bay Journal

It's common knowledge that William Penn was friendly toward the Indians and preferred to 'purchase' lands legitimately (see the history of Mifflin Co.) however, the Indians did not see such transactions in the same light as the Europeans. A fundamental belief shared by all Indians was that land cannot be purchased since it belongs to no one. They viewed the treaty as more of a lease or mutual agreement to cease attacks and allow settlement. The Indians who willingly evacuated agreed-upon lands were being forced out of their new locations and so soon viewed the colonists as having broken these agreements. Any aggressive actions afterwards towards settlers on behalf of the Indians was not actually due to anger towards individual settlers encroaching on their lands, but was rather an objection to what they considered deceptive and dishonorable behavior of the colonist leaders.
Although granted the Pennsylvania area land by Charles II, William Penn did not feel it was owned outright. Believing the land truly belonged to the Susquehannocks/ Lenape, he sought to purchase the land from them honorably but had a difficult job ahead in negotiating with the Indians. By the time that he arrived on the scene, negotiations with traders had already gone on for some time and opinions of Europeans had been formed. Also, the Algonquin-speaking nations had formed alliances and lent aid to many Indians forced north to PA, such as Mid-Atlantic Susquehannocks and Shawnee, as lands were seized in those areas. By then, the Lenape Nation had become used to the practice of Colonist officials promising one thing and delivering quite another. Yet William Penn's efforts to deal fairly made an impression on the Lenape and he was able to earn their loyalty. Unfortunately, when he died, the new government was impatient for expansion with new immigrants arriving, filling up the cities and clamouring to officials for land in order to earn a living and support their families. Settlement of Indian lands increased, often taken by force, causing much friction with the Lenape. [2]
The bloodiest war in America's history, on a per capita basis, took place in New England in 1675.
At the center of this cataclysm was one man, Metacom, leader of the Pokanokets, a tribe within the Wampanoag Indian Federation. At an early age, when relations between the natives and settlers were less stressed, Metacom was given the nickname of King Philip by the English, because of his haughty mannerisms. One of the many ironies of this conflict is that Philip was the son of Massasoit -- the same Massasoit who had helped the Plymouth Pilgrims survive their first winter in the New World. A father's kindness would became a son's curse.
In the 55-year span between the arrival of the Mayflower and the outbreak of King Philip's War, the English had prospered, multiplied and expanded their settlements while the natives were in a slow state of decline from diseases introduced by the Europeans and loss of tribal lands to the whites.
By 1675, with the stage now fully set for conflict, Philip stepped forward to make a stand. In a prophetic moment he warned the whites of his intentions, saying "I am determined not to live until I have no country." [3]
John Smith, one of the members of this first colony in Jamestown, was a leader to helping the colony grow. He explored the area, built relationships with the natives in the vicinity, and created an accurate map of the area. After John Smith returned to England, the colony fell on hard times and was nearly wiped out due to disease, starvation, and conflict with the Indians.

[4]

Need I go on? I'm re-inserting the disputed text. You are welcome to add your POV to the text as I am sure there are instances of cooperation and friendship between the English settlers and the Native Americans. Just be sure to source your statements.
--Richard 05:40, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
pop history by non-historians is poor basis for Wikipedia. Thus Chesapeake Bay Journal is by a marine biologist who gives no footnotes or citations. So please don't use his stuff. The Rootsweb is by amateur genealogists, who are not usually conversant with ethnography or historiography. Michael Tougias is a popular nature writer but he perhaps does pay more attention to what historians write. As I suggest: start with solid history, not with preconceived notions derived from some forgotten TV show. Rjensen 05:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. I assert that the statements can be sourced from the following references
The American Pageant: A History of the Republic (12th Ed.), Bailey, Thomas A., Cohen, Lizabeth, and David M. Kennedy. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2001. ISBN 061810349X
Johnson, Paul M. A History of the American People, Perennial, 1999. ISBN 0060930349
Zinn, Howard. A People's History of the United States, Perennial, 2003. ISBN 0060528370

[edit] Morocco or Ragusa?

The article states that Morocco was the first country to recognize American independence, but this is a distinction which has also been claimed by the tiny Adriatic republic of Ragusa/Dubrovnik. Do we know the dates for either nation's "official recognition"? If Morocco is listed in this article because it is still a country and Ragusa is not, is there someway that we can specify that in this article?



Perhaps rather than including links to related articles at the bottom of the page, it would be more useful to have links to articles provided in their corresponding sections. A "for deeper coverage of this subject area" at the bottom would do just fine.

[edit] Look out for the Onion!

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/50902

Should the page be semi-protected? - Calmypal (T) 18:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal for a Wikiproject on the United States

-- Copied from Talk:United States --

It appears that there is no Wikiproject whose scope covers the United States. If this is true, then I propose a Wikiproject called Wikipedia:WikiProject United States. One example of why such a project would be useful can be found at Wikipedia:Village pump (assistance)#Question on state templates. There seems to be a lack of standards for the infoboxes used in various city articles. To understand what I mean, consider the infoboxes being used in the following articles: Chicago, San Francisco, Tulsa, Miami, Stamford.

--Richard 22:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree there definitely should be a US Wikiproject. I have just written four full-size articles on life in the US and posted them in the two "main" templates: Template:Life in the United States and Template:US_topics. Of course there are some article covering subjects in the US that are on neither template. The sheer number of US related articles and the lack of standards is plenty of reason for a US wiki project. Regards, Signaturebrendel 22:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
A WikiProject is an excellent idea. I've been working on Portal:United States (because no one else was updating it). But, I definitely could use assistance, and eventually would like to take a back seat on that. The portal could be maintained like the main page, where one person takes care of the featured article, others work on the featured picture, and different people update the "Did you know" and the news. That would be ideal, but I would be happy with any assistance. WikiProjects are often a good way to coordinate portal maintainance, among other tasks and coordination for the WikiProject. --Aude (talk contribs) 23:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I have left a post on the Wikiproject:Wikiprojects talk page. There has been one request on a Wikiproject:US places-but that is a bit to specific IMHO. There are dozens of articles w/ "in the United States" in the title, thus I have proposed the project and if you support it you can sign here: [5]
also feel free to tweak the description a bit. Also here's the temporary project page (feel free to add to it): User:Gerdbrendel/Wikiproject United States Signaturebrendel 23:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About 3 more sigs needed

Okay, including me, four have signed up as being interested in the Wikiproject:United States. We need about three signatures more, so if your fond of the idea sign your name here:[6]
Regards, Signaturebrendel 03:33, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Impressment

"In response to continued British impressment of American sailors into the British Navy Madison had the Twelfth United States Congress—led by Southern and Western Jeffersonians—declared war on Britain in 1812."

- Okay, including me, four have signed up as being interested in the Wikiproject:United States. We need about three signatures more, so if your fond of the idea sign your name here:[7]
Regards, Signaturebrendel 03:33, 5 August 2006 (UTC) +

 + I didn't think I'd be able to edit this part myself. Shouldn't it read "had the Twelfth United States Congress—led by Southern and Western Jeffersonians—declare war on Britain in 1812." 
 +  
 + MarcTmarcl 02:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The formation of American's money as it is today

I would like to know about the formation of money during the time when the setlers first came to land on American to the time that the first american dollar was made.

I found this interesting and rather technically deep article on the topic: http://www.dinsdoc.com/sumner-1.htm
And lots of other related articles that seem qutie excellent there: http://www.dinsdoc.com/colonial-1.htm
Pfly 05:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Forming the United States

Whats the point of talking about the Constitution being drafted in 1789 and then hopping back to the Revolutionary war? I think its better to have history in chronological order.

[edit] This article's title.

This article's title is entirely misleading. The "History of the United States" should begin with the ideas of independence of the 1700s and not with three entire sections devoted to Pre-revolutionary America. That's not the United States. Furthermore, American History, as a science, should not redirect here, but should be a disambiguation page to here as well as another article about American History, the field of knowledge dealing with American History and the courses involved. My thoughts. Bastiq▼e demandez 14:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, the bit about "Native Americans" (that is, members of tribal nations who controlled the present-day American continents) is not needed in this article, nor is the bit about early European settlements. Colonist-Native American relations should be referred to, but most of what's in the article now is unnecessary. I agree that "American History" has different connotations to different people and should be a disambiguation page with a link to an article about the terminology (yet to be created, as far as I know). hoopydinkConas tá tú? 14:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. The pre-history is important to what the US became. The "History of France" article discusses periods long before there was a France, as do most other similiar articles. In this case, there's just no better title for it.--Cúchullain t/c 18:00, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
How does the bit about pre-colonial failed settlements and Native American history important to the overview of "a History of the United States"? Both are important to a "History of North and South America", but not to the United States as a country. hoopydinkConas tá tú? 19:00, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand you... The Indians and colonists occupying the future territory of the US had a direct effect on the country it would would become. As in the France example, most of our history articles deal with the prehistory of the country as well, not just the history of an area from the point it got its name.--Cúchullain t/c 19:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. The information provided in the "Pre-Colonial America" and "Early European Settlements" have absolutely nothing to do with the history of the United States. (also, as an off-topic aside, the Irish hero to which your user name refers is spelled "Cú Chulaind" or "Cúchullainh", depending on the time period and province in which his stories were told). hoopydinkConas tá tú? 00:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the pre-colonial and colonial history is essential for understanding why the history of the country, once it became the US, took the course it did. On the other hand, I think these sections could be better written to bring out that aspect of the history -- how colonial and pre-colonial ("pre-colonial" is an odd word, the meaning is precontact/prehistoric Indian history I suppose) processes and patterns continued and in many ways are still with us today. If I find the inspiration, I'll try to improve the text myself. Another alternative would be for these sections to simply link to other articles devoted to them; or to have a short blurb with a link to a longer article. Of course, that could be done for various eras of the history of the US as well. In any case, the United States was born from colonial patterns and processes, which included Indians and Indian history. I have trouble seeing how one could decently explain the birth of the country and its early years especially, without setting the earlier context up. Pfly 01:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh and additionally -- the whole article seems to much a list of events in prose. Rather than explaining why things happened and how they fit into broader historical patterns, most of the article seems to just state events, this happened, then that happened, then this, then that; with only a few vague and broad waves at explaining why this and why that. I guess this kind of thing is a general problem with wikipedia. But rather than delete sections that don't seem to relate (like colonial history), we should be trying to write about why things happened and the longer patterns and processes, instead of just what happened when. Pfly 01:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) I agree with Cuchullain, a summary of the earlier periods is important here. It is patently ridiculous to say it has "absolutely nothing to do with the history of the United States". Most standard textbooks will attend to setting the stage with both the indigenous peoples and early colonial activities. older ≠ wiser 01:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
As the sections are written now, they make no mention of the United States and therefore do nothing to further this article, which is meant to give a brief overview of the United States. Siberians crossing the Bering Strait and creating tribal nations across the North and South American continents have nothing to do with the United States, nor do failed European settlements that have not impacted the United States. Keep in mind that my assumption of what the United States is (i.e. the definition) is a country that originated from the original thirteen colonies. Settlements from the 16th and 17th centuries and "Native American" history from hundreds of years prior has no bearing on the shape of US history. If these sections were reworked to link those histories to that of United States history (as neither makes any mention of the US), then it would be fine. Keep in mind that the United States is a country, not a geographical region hoopydinkConas tá tú? 01:46, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
The U.S., as a nation, did not manifest ex nihilo. There were indigenous peoples living here for many centuries beforehand. And multiple Eurpoean powers struggled for a couple centuries beforehand. These factors are important to how the U.S. came into being. Perhaps the sections could do a better job of connecting the dots. I just had a look, and it seemed quite fine to me, but then, I don't care for too much hand-holding, especially in a summary style. To not mention these factors at all would be to omit crucial points in what led up to the formation of the U.S. older ≠ wiser 01:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I just tweaked the sections with the hopes of reflecting that the early European settlements (sans British) and the Native Americans did not directly lead to the United States becoming a country. Feel free to revert it and explain why on the talk page; I'd be more than willing to discuss a different way of clarification. hoopydinkConas tá tú? 20:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I reverted, no offense. There's no need to make the distinction between non-English colonies and English colonies, and the place in the article you made the distinction was confusing. I agree with Bkonrad that the US did not spring up out of the ground on July 4 1776 (or even when the first British colonies were founded). On the History of France page, we discuss all the peoples who lived in what we now call France. Unfortunately, it sounds awkward to say "Siberian nomads crossed the Bering Strait into the United States", but that's just semantics; it would severely weaken this article if we did not discuss all the peoples who lived or live in the territory of the country we now call the United States.--Cúchullain t/c 20:35, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Sure, no offense taken at all. I actually think that a distinction between non-English and English colonies are important in that the United States was established as a rebellion against the English crown, whose territory it was (the colonies, I mean). The failed non-British settlements did not impact the formation of the United States as a country as it formed out of an English colonisation. I feel that the titles are misleading and would do well to somehow separate Native American and 16th century settlements from the English colonies that became a country. They're worth a mention, but I think that there has to be some distinction that these settlements and tribal nations existed prior to the US becoming a country and have no direct relation to the US other than that they once inhabited some of the space that the United States now controls hoopydinkConas tá tú? 20:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that's a little unfair... I don't think Florida, New Orleans, or California are "failed" colonies, and they certainly have an impact on America and American history. And the Indians did not just happen to live on territory now part of the United States; their descendants still live here today, and there are far more members of the Seminole tribe, not to mention whites, blacks, and others who have Seminole ancestry, than Jamestown has ever had. I see your point, though, that the English colonies were the most important entities in shaping the country America is today, as most of us speak English, our legal system is largely based on English law, many of us are Protestant Christians, etc. But they were not the only factors, and I don't want to see the article focus on them at the expense of ignoring the rest.--Cúchullain t/c 21:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, the U.S. was a melting pot of cultures before it became a country. New Netherland left a profound mark on the development of New York. The French and Spanish similarly left long-lasting traces that contributed to the development of the country. To say that "[t]he failed non-British settlements did not impact the formation of the United States as a country" is just incorrect in the extreme. older ≠ wiser 22:05, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes.. on French and Spanish colonies including ones that definitely "failed" in the end -- take the example of Spanish Flolrida. There were never many Spaniards there, and although the missions converted a lot of Indians to Catholicism, most of those Indians were killed or enslaved and scattered. Regardless of what happened to the Spanish and Spanish-allied Indians of Florida, the conflict between Spanish Florida and the English colonies, especially South Carolina, played a large role in shaping those colonies. South Carolina especially -- conflict with Spanish Florida began immediately upon the founding of the colony and escalated for several decades. South Carolina was almost wiped out by a combined French and Spanish invasion which would have been able to do it had the operation not ended up bungled. Later, South Carolina wiped out Spanish Florida except for the forts at St Augustine and Pensacola. The war with Spanish Florida dominated the first several decades of South Carolina, putting in place long lasting social, cultural, and government systems. In addition, in these first decades, South Carolina was a major exporter of Native American slaves. The Indian slave trade was extremely important to early South Carolina and again put in place long-lasting cultural traits. Indian slaves were supposed to only be enemies captured in war (a rule often bent and broken, but still a rule the English had to at least pretend to follow). Enemies included France and Spain and their allied Indians. Thus South Carolina's Indian slave system depended on Spanish Florida and French Louisiana. The African slave system is another case in which places outside the current United States matter. In the case of South Carolina, the English sugar island colony of Barbados is key for the way African slavery in South Carolina, and to some degree, the United States, got started and defined.
There are countless examples like these. In short, it would be hard to describe with decent depth how the United States came to be the way it is without referring to places outside the current United States. A history that only focused on the land that is now the United States, and then only on the colonies that survived and transformed into states, would be at least half-blind. Pfly 23:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why so black and white?

Article says: "In Which the British in North America achieved thier objective of holding thier territory and the Americans failed to achive thiers (The overthrow of British North America)."

I've seen in the discussion pages arguments over who won and who lost and whether it was a draw and so on. Why must things be described in absolute terms like that? Also, why must a country have a single objective and either achieve or fail to achieve it? At least one objective of the US during this war was to get to British to give up the forts they had still occupied on US land in the Great Lakes region. After the war the British did leave these forts and stopped providing support to the Native Americans living in the US in that region. For the Indians of the US, this was a terrible loss and for the US, a great victory. Granted, it is only one small part of the War of 1812, but my point is that there were many objectives on both sides, and each side achieved some and not others. Words like "win" and "lose" for this war as a whole don't really work. Pfly 00:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] unknown material

I moved the following unknown purpose material from the text of the article to here: [Subject Matter: Technology, the Body, and Science on the Anglo-American Frontier, 1500-1676. By Joyce E. Chaplin . (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 2001] [John Wood Sweet. Bodies Politic - Negotiating Race in the American North, 1730-1830. Johns Hopkins University Press]

Whatever this is, it does belong in the text of English colonies in American. Hmains 22:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

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