Talk:History of the Jews in Germany

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Germany To-do:

1 Concentration Camps
2 Who is Jewish?, post-1945
3 Stories of German Shielding 1942-45
4 Copyvio?
5 Number of jews in Germany
6 "German Jews" article
7 Spelling mistake
8 scrubbing streets picture

[edit] Concentration Camps

The sentence "some of which were sent to the newly formed concentration camps" about the first deportations of Jews implies to me that KZs were firstly formed from around 1939 for Jewish people - in fact, other groups that were persecuted by the Nazis, most importantly socialists and other political opponents, were imprisioned in concentration camps from as early as 1933; conditions were rapidly changing after 1939, but the above phrasing sounds inappropriate to me. Alternative suggestions, please? --131.111.8.97 10:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who is Jewish?, post-1945

I could find no firm evidence that Bundesbank chairman Helmut Schlesinger is Jewish, even though his surname is often associated with Jews. Some websites claim that Hugo Egon Balder is Jewish, but they strike me as dubious. Balder is not known to be involved in the Jewish community (the way Rosenthal was, for example), and I found no incontrovertible evidence of Balder's Jewishness. Inge Meysel had a Jewish father but a Christian mother, which does not make her Jewish by the Jewish definition. Poldy Bloom 19:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Stories of German Shielding 1942-45

Would be good to have an entry (or link) to a collection of stories on how some "Jews were shielded from the Nazis by the courageous acts of other Germans". This may be a start: http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/visasforlife/. http://hnn.us/comments/19503.html. Then again, perhaps this entry is not so much the place for such info. The entry on the Holocaust has a section about recuers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Rescuers

[edit] Copyvio?

Parts of this smack of plagiarism e.g.

"They enjoyed full civic liberty, being restricted only in regard to the dissemination of their faith, the keeping of Christian slaves, and the holding of office under the government. But they were otherwise free to follow any occupation open to their fellow citizens. They were engaged in agriculture, trade, and industry, and only gradually took up money-lending. These conditions at first continued in the subsequently established Germanic kingdoms under the Burgundians and Franks, for ecclesiasticism took root here but slowly, and the Jews lived as peaceably with their new German lords as they had done formerly with the Roman provincials. The Merovingian rulers, also, who succeeded to the Burgundian empire, were devoid of fanaticism, and gave scant support to the efforts of the Church to restrict the civic and social status of the Jews." SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Not a copyvio, instead much of the early history is verbatim from the public domain Jewish Encyclopedia which, being written in 1906, is a bit fussy on the language side. It serves as a good base, but needs more copyediting. --Goodoldpolonius2 14:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The Jewish Virtual Library and the articles 'number of jews by country' both go by the 105.000 jews in Germany today. Why would you use the 'probably' figure? It also looks like it's not the third biggest community in Europe, but the fifth biggest in case you consider Russia as European. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html#top European ranking would be: Russia - France - United Kingdom - Ukraine - Germany.

[edit] Number of jews in Germany

I added a source for the real number of Jews that live in Germany, and I reverted the text. | November 2, 2006

[edit] "German Jews" article

German Jews are one of the largest Jews communities and its worth establishing an article NEXT TO the history article!

Now that there is this article on contemporary Jews Culture, I wonder if the History article's shouldnt close with a common statement on culture or history but a population number.

The "History of Jews" articles discuss ancient and modern history, including present day. I've argued they should be renamed to "Jews in Germany" etc., but that's another issue. Jayjg ^(talk) 08:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

An article called "history" is in-adequate to describe a present day situation. The argument for articles to fall in line with the arrangement of articles isnt convincing either cause there are already a number of articles as "xy Jews" or "Jews in xy".

I'd support moving this to Jews in Germany, and the same with the other History of the Jews in xxx. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:23, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Well re-naming all the other: thats a big thing - cant tell. For contemporary Germany: German Jews is logical to me as it is the same for American Jews, African Jews etc. but before this whole issue gets forgotten I d rather agree with Jews in Germany.

Actually I d support that too: history is quite restrictive as it referes to everything from a sort of historical perspective. - as opposed to Jews in xy which is a lot more inclusive and open to life in general. Still I m not sure about identities.

Considering the very word, "Ashkenaz", which defines all German and Eastern European Jews, is the Hebrew term for "Germany" makes "German Jews" unique in this series. Surely the "Zentralrat for Juden in Deutschland" is calling it "Jews in Germany" but that was in 1950. Also a google search comes up with twice as many results for "German Jews" as for "Jews in Germany". The same is true if you search for sites updated (or created) in the past year. And, this number is the second highest number worldwide (only "American Jews" comes up with more results!).

One should also consider that almost all Jews newly immigrating to Germany, do so as recognized "German citizens" and not just any group of "foreigners". And: most of them are said intend to become part of a wider "German society" with a substantial Jewish history. How do "German Jews" / "Jews in Germany" feel about this? I d really like to see an article established like this - please comment.

Did some research and get clearer for the title "German Jews": key is the identification and heritage within a set environment. The very fact that (for centuries until 1933) "German Jews" were an INTEGRAL part of Germany, made them accelerate in so many areas. This has been unique in Jews history and after 1933 only "American Jews" took over this prominent heritage (directly inherited from emigrated "German Jews") German Jews in New York. I think a) Modern Germany wants to see Jewish life in Germany flourish. b) Building on their own (once wasted) potential and the "American example", a more integrated German Jewish community is more natural to an enlightened German society. d) The new Jewish community in Germany takes large benefit in re-establishing the German-Jewish identity. March 2006

[edit] Spelling mistake

On the see also section, shouldnt it say Jews and their lives rather than Jews and their lies? Dracion 17:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] scrubbing streets picture

Jews under the nazis: The picture shows only the half truth. It suggests that jewish people had to scub several streets for nothing and thats not right. Before "The Anschluss" austrain federal chancellor Kurt Schuschnigg ordered to paint the streets with paroles like 'Austria will never give up' and 'Sovereignty'. After the germans arrived, they took rich jewish inhabitants from the streets and forced them to remove this, as degradation. This was one of the reasons why the Wien residents has not organized resistance. However, they appreciated this. History should be hold clear. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.83.109.202 (talk • contribs).

Anon, unless you are trying to justify the policy of forcing "rich jewish inhabitants" to scrub the streets, I don't see your point. Exatly which streets and what from those streets they were forced to scrub, seems irrelevant to me. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, i dont need to justify anyone. It is even a historical fact. Of course there where humans exploited to divide an overthrown city by a successor. Its also not needed to say which street they used, but why that worked should made clear. Otherwise it is likewise propaganda. --217.83.109.202 21:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

You don't get it. They did not choose some random citizens for this degradation. What is important is they singled out the Jews. Exactly what those Jews were cleaning (the streets could be sterile clean) doesn't matter. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Noop, not every jew on street where singled out, just as I wrote. On this days Wieners where not ethnical divided but rather by function. They took other representatives of state as well. Its a modern tale that jews where the unique victims.--217.83.109.202 22:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

"not every jew" - what's your point? Is that supposed to somehow justify the Nazi perpetrators? How did those Jews deserve it?

If "representatives of state" really were there scrubbing the street next to the Jews (proof please), maybe they represented their past powers and their past decisions. Please explain what was the "function" of the Jews to deserve such treatment. Also, I don't understand how are those representatives related to the subject. Nazis also persecuted gays, mental patients, dissidents, etc. Should we mention all of this in the caption of a photo showing Viennese Jews scrubbing the street? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 23:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, parts of Schuschniggs cabinet where forced to do this as well. The fact that no one protested was fear on one hand (armed force in the city). Otherwise it shows how far away from normal people some parts of community lived. The chancellor, his cabinet and the jews of the financial district where not really beloved ones this time. -- Why should we complicate the stuff? Can you agree zu underline the photo with "Nazis in Vienna, Austria 1938 mock mostly Jewish men forced to scrub away watchwords of resistance from overthrowed Schuschnig-Administration from streets ? I think that would made it clear enough.--141.76.45.35 07:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Unless you imply that Jews deserved such himiliation, all that is irrelevant. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 08:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The way you disrespect and blame me with your quotung marks, word orders etc. just unmask yourself

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