Talk:History of erotic depictions/Archive1

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Contents 1 major contradiction 2 More variety needed in the illustrations 3 why the lengthy title? 4 back and forth 5 the Greeks and the glans 6 References 7 I see what the situation is

[edit] major contradiction

"merely looking at objects or images depicting them was not outlawed in any country until 1857."

vs.

"the first of which was a ban on erotic books known as kōshokubon ( 好色本, kōshokubon?) issued by the Tokugawa shogunate in Kyōhō 7 (1722)."

In general, the section containing the first quote should probably be made to be a bit more balanced, instead of more or less implying that the Victorians are responsible for all efforts to restrict pornography.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.245.6.230 (talk • contribs).

A ban is not neccessarily a written law. pschemp | talk 18:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More variety needed in the illustrations

What is here is very good, but a bit more art from the Eastern traditions would be in order. I will contribute some examples, posting them here so the main editors can make their selection. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Haiduc (talk • contribs).

Double page print from an illustrated shunga book by Yanagawa Shigenobu (1787-1832), a pupil of Hokusai. Size: chubon; Colored ink on paper; ca.1820; Private collection	Japanese man in the company of two adolescent male entertainers Early ukiyo-e print in the shunga (erotic) style. Hishikawa Moronobu, ca. 1680; Private collection.	Two LoversKatsushika Hokusai, The Adonis Plant (Fukujusô) Woodblock print, from a set of 12, ôban ca. 1815	Young men sipping tea, reading poetry, and making love Individual panel from a hand scroll on homosexual themes, paint on silk; China, Qing dynasty (18th-19th c.); Kinsey Institute, Bloomington, Indiana
Spring Pastimes	The Way of the Academicians from “Hua Ying Chin Chen” (Variegated Positions of the Flower Battle), China, Ming dynasty (1368–1644)	19th c. shunga print by Kunisada

Thanks. I've transfered any of these that are not on commons to commons and place them in the Shunga and Chinese erotic art categories there that are linked at the bottom of this article so they can participate whether they are in the article directly or not. I'm not actaully done with the eastern depictions and the choice of images. In the future, when you put images on commons, please consider adding them to these categories. Also consider moving everything to commons too, to keep images organized. Thanks. pschemp | talk 19:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] why the lengthy title?

Seems like this article would be better titled simply "Erotica" - that article is presently a tiny stub. Why not a merge/delete?

This article is explicitly about the history, not the current use. The article on erotica clearly states that the term carries current connotations that would exclude a lot of the material described by this article because it is not "high brow". The term "erotic depictions" is not weighted in this way. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 11:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] back and forth

So as not to destabilize the article at this point I thought we should discuss these matters here.

1. First of all, please see this link for an extensive discussion of the Greeks' appreciation of the intact penis, and their ridicule of circumcision.
2. Second, this text Greek art often portrays sexual activity, but it is impossible to distinguish between what to them was illegal or immoral since the ancient Greeks did not have a concept of pornography. is not intelligible from a classical standpoint. We actually have a fair idea of what the Greeks held to be illegal and what they held to be immoral in the domain of love. And what does it mean that they did not have a concept of pornography? The whole discussion reads more like a projection of modern standards on ancient art.
3. Finally, if you are going to link the Greek pederasty amphora image to a pederasty article, why not link it to the Greek pederasty article rather than the generic one?
4. Oh, yes, I do agree with you on herms having heads other than that of Hermes, thank you for picking that up. Haiduc 06:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I think its awful presumptuous of modern people to say they know what the Greeks meant or were thinking. Yes, we can guess, but we don't know for certain. Our interpretations *could* be totally wrong. Therefore, I don't think things should be stated as absolute fact and indeed it is true that we can never know their morals for certain. We do indeed know that they modern concept of pornography was invented by the Victorians, therefore, it is impossible for the Greeks to share it as they were long dead. Pederasty is already linked as a concept, if people wish to go to the level of Greek pederasty, it is easy for them to do so. I feel its better to start out with a more general link to the concept for educational purposes. As for the views of circumcision, this article is not here to discuss every detail of Greek self image, nor of Roman. That belongs in an article dedicated to the topic but is a detail not needed here. Honestly I'd love to see an article written about Greek and Roman body image, as very little about is mentioned on Wikipedia and that not referenced. The level of detail would be appropriate there, but not here. This article is an overview, and that's just not a necessary detail. Nor do I feel like having this article being used for propaganda in the circumcision wars, which I feel might be your intent when I look at your contributions. So, no I don't agree with any of your proposed changes. pschemp | talk 22:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't agree with any of your formulations. Your sally into "illegality and immorality" is patent nonsense from a classicist perspective, and sounds like schoolmarmish moralizing. It has no place in a balanced objective treatment of erotic art in ancient times. It is a modern puritan voice that may belong somewhere but certainly not here. As for your claim of lack of certainty, that is a yardstick that smacks of tendentiousness. Nothing is certain, that does not mean that we erase everything and go home. I was hoping for a discussion of the issues I raised, not a lecture or a imputation of motives based on a superficial understanding of my work here. Since that is not forthcoming I will simply edit as required. Haiduc 23:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you are putting interpretations on my comments that do not exist. I am not lecturing you about prudishness, nor am I a modern puritan. If you are willing to write me off so quickly, I can't help but think you have an agenda of your own. Nowhere did I say I was not willing to discuss further, but rather than countering my comments with facts, you have made a moral judgement on my character. If you truly cared about the content, you would discuss as I am doing here. However, you need to make a convincing argument for your viewpoint. I've done a lot of research to write this article so I'm not just some dumb kid. Additionally, this is a featured article, so you need to justify your edits with more than "well I think its this way." Honestly, what a terribly immature reaction on your part. I gave you my reasoning and you countered with "you're a prude". How is that assuming good faith on your part? pschemp | talk 23:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

There is many approaches I could take, but I have to wonder what circumcision has to do with an article on the history of erotic depictions. The assertion that circumcision was eschewed over the "intact" penis in the greek world seems nothing more than an attempt to insert modern day concerns and values. Of course in the greek world a large majority of greeks were not circumcised, and so greek art, erotic or not, would indicate this. Trying to suggest that art was created during that period with a purpose to glorify the "intact" penis over the circumcised seems to be to be nonsense. Even if there were some grain of truth to that, it seems like minutae of little importance in a the larger context of erotic depictions. If "your work" is of greater importance than it seems on the surface, you'll need to present it in a more convincing fashion. Atom 00:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

If you are going to describe the Greek aesthetic ideal of the penis, you need to say that it was small and uncircumcised. To gloss over that IS to insert modern sexual polemics into the discussion, and cheats the reader. Whether you describe the uncut member as "intact" or not is irrelevant, but it would seem fitting to respect the conventions that have evolved as part of this project. I am flabbergasted that you and Pschemp would cling tooth and nail to an inaccurate description when with the addition of one word you can actually present a proper idea of the subject you are discussing. This whole polemic of what the art was designed for is, forgive me, off the wall. Let's drop the culture wars and the anxieties about personal agendas and deal with the Greeks, shall we?

Also, the external links leave something to be desired. Can we not find some more varied sources of historical erotic depictions? Do the Moche deserve two links?! If this is to be a featured article I think we can do better than that.

Furthermore, I have not seen any valid reason to retain that anachronistic aside on illegality and immorality, certainly not in that "we can not know" mode which is simply false. I would prefer to reason our way through that, but failing that I will simply ask for a proper citation. A better solution would be to say that depictions of eros were not problematized, and that those aspects of eros which were problematized (such as a man fellating another, or masturbating, or being buggered) were either not depicted, or only rarely. That at least would be true. And no, I am not insisting on any particular wording, just getting that idea across. And I can't believe, Pschamp, that you would have the nerve to review my edits, as if that had anything to do with the value of my contributions here, which need to stand or fall on their own merits. That is not too much to ask, is it? Haiduc 01:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I haven't heard anyone describe the Greek aesthetic ideal as something other than small and uncircumcised. (The article states "The Greek male ideal had a small penis, an aesthetic the Romans later adopted." That's always been my understanding. The penis is by default "uncircumcised" and so I'm not sure why one would go out of their way to describe it as "intact", a term not used at that time, and not really used until recently. If the article were to describe the Greek ideal as large and circumcised, we wouldn't be discussing this. Pschemp's description, given above, seems perfect IMO. If the majority of the civilized world at that time were circumcised then noting that uncircumcised penises were the ideal would be notable. Noting that the ideal was uncircumcised in a world that was 90% uncircumcised doesn't seem important. It also doesn't mention that the Greek ideal was not pierced with a prince albert either.

As for the Links, as in all articles, even a featured article, I am sure improvements can be made. Why don't you suggest some. Since you point that out, I am sure others will work on that too.

As for the issue of stating "Greek art often portrays sexual activity, but it is impossible to assume they saw it as immoral since the ancient Greeks did not have a concept of pornography" that seems credible to me. Were someone to say otherwise would require a citation that showed that the sexual activity was viewed by the Greeks as immoral, or as pornography, which as far as I know would be incorrect, and non-citable. What would you suggest that it say? Do you have citations that disagree? Maybe you could explain how that view is anachronistic, because I don't understand. As you are a scholar and this is your area of expertise, a more thorough explanation of how the greeks viewed art portraying sexual activity would be enlightening for me. Frankly I can't see how that view could be seen as "Puritan" or "Moralizing", it seems quite the opposite. Atom 03:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That article is pretty speculative. He acknowledges a number of times that other scholars don't agree with his arguments - for example on whether psolos can be read as "circumsised" or simply means "erect."

Dybryd 02:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. The author even points out that that adjective was used even when a man was circumcised. I have to admit that I'm skeptical of this as a source considering that all the other scholars I've read have never felt circumcision notable enough to even mention. Of course they were uncircumcised, the Greeks didn't practice that. Mentioning it is rather redundant. As for the Moche, they certainly do deserve two links, as erotic art in ancient civilisations in South American is an under researched topic and just as important as erotic art in any other ancient culture. Additionally, I didn't have any free pictures of their works so they need to be there so people can see what the works look like. If there are good, NPOV and educational links that add to the content that's fine, but the focus of an article certainly isn't its external links. If you read the FAC discussion you'll see I had to fight tooth and nail just to get the description of Greek and Roman phallic preference that does exist in here. Citing a speculative source is problematic as is making the assertation that we know exactly for sure and without a doubt how the ancient Greeks thought. Certainly that would need a helluva source - or ten. pschemp | talk 03:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the Greeks and the glans

I hate getting stuck on such a minor and obvious point, but if I must prove the Earth is round, here it goes. . .

1. "Because the Greeks regarded circumcision as a multilation of the body, some of the Jewish participants in the Greek athletic games tried to mask the signs."
2. "The Greeks, Etruscans, and Romans, appear to have been accustomed to cover the foreskin with the kynodesme (a band), or the fibula (a ring), for custom and modesty demanded that the glans should be concealed. Such covering is represented in persons who were compelled to be naked, and is referred to by Celsus as "decori causâ." (L. Stieda, "Anatomisch-archäologische Studien," Anatomische Hefte, Bd. XIX, Heft 2, 1902.)"

Consider it done. Also, as a correction to what I had written earlier, the glans IS shown exposed in the iconography, but usually as a comedic device, since it was seen as ridiculous, or as an ethnic marker, to distinguish certain barbarian races from the Greeks.

As an aside, Pschamps, if you were a novice user and came across with the kind of capricious statement, as you did, that you expect a helluva source - or ten. I would write it off to youthful abandon and inexperience. But it appears you are an admin. How do you permit yourself that level of discourse?! You should be twice as circumspect as a regular user, such as myself, since you have more power.

Finally, if this were the article (but it is not) I would also insert a comment to the picture of Priapus pointing out that his exposed glans is part of that very effect you so aptly describe (undesirable and comic).

Enough of dicks, if you please. That is not why I came here. I simply wanted to do a general lookover, to make sure we do not make asses of ourselves with a masthead article. So I will attempt to do just that, and feel free to comment as you please. But I hope that you will do me the courtesy to not just revert arbitrarily as if this article was personal territory. Haiduc 04:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

No one said it was your personal theory. We said it was redundant to mention and a level of detail that isn't needed here. As I suggested before why don't you write an article about Greek body image and we'll link it? You still didn't prove that anyone out there is 100% correct at interpreting Greek thoughts though. Btw, this article isn't specifically about homosexual depictions, so unless you are going to balance that link with a straight and lesbian one, it isn't appropriate. NPOV applies. Oh yeah, and the old "you are an admin so you have to just shut up and take abuse from other editors" doesn't fly with me. It was good attempt at a backhanded insult though. pschemp | talk 05:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

"We"?! "100%"?! "Balance" when there are already a bunch of straight links there?! Why are you being so antagonistic? "Go write an article?!" "An unneeded level of detail" when all I wanted to do is add ONE word?! "Abuse"??? "Insult you"?! I came in here in the most respectful way imaginable, with my original suggestion of alternative images which I did not even post in the article but only on the talk page. And all along what I get is condescension and resistance. What is going on here? This is not the kind of collaborative, collegial climate I would expect from a group of experienced users with whom I have no prior history of bad blood. Haiduc 05:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I rather think that *you* were the condescending one. Or did you forget that you called me a "Puritan"? Or how about "schoolmarmish moralizing"? it sounds quite condescending to me. pschemp | talk 05:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Good job guys, way to show the world the Wikipedia way. 66.0.141.195 01:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Well it may not always be pretty, but in the long run, it does build better articles. Doc Tropics 01:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Clarification: it's the free and open exchange of ideas that builds better articles, the name-calling is just an optional extra feature. Doc Tropics 01:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

Haiduc, you need to understand that every single claim in the article is referenced to a source at the end of a paragraph. Thus, you cannot just go sticking in facts without other references where they appear to have come from those cited. In fact they don't and such edits are misleading to the reader. Cite sources or your insertions will be removed. Also understand that this is not an article created to focus on western culture and edits that make the article go that way are not neccesary. pschemp | talk 05:17, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I see what the situation is

I am sorry I said anything, I wish you all the best with the article. Haiduc 05:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)