Talk:History of London

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Contents 1 Further reading 2 Population 3 Is this right? 4 18th century 5 Saxon London 6 Travel Guide as a separate page 7 Etymology of -wych/-wic 8 Missplaced text? 9 London's Local Government 10 New template 11 Long article

[edit] Further reading

yes they are external links, but they are also further reading, do you only have a further reading heading when the reading relates to books?... Steeev 00:54, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure on the correct guideline: but if the link's on the Internet, it's an external link. If a book is mentioned, it can go under References or Further reading...

The point is to distance Wikipedia content from our own. Further reading with an internet link doesn't do this properly, I think - Further reading can pertain to Wikipedia content too. When it points to a book, it is clearer. Dysprosia 00:56, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

ok fair enough Steeev 01:03, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Population

I was under the impression that the population of London peaked at around 8.5 million in the 1930s, and declined in the postwar years, I've certainly read that somewhere. I'll check it out G-Man 14:02, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

My book the Illustrated Encyclopedia of Great Britain states that:

London's population which has fluctuated with pestillence and prosperity since its foundation - it was just 1400-18000 in 1066 - reached a peak of more than 8.6 million in 1939. After the war, development increasingly spread outwards into suburban areas and density decreased slightly. The 1991 census put the population of Greater London at 7.6 million.

G-Man 23:37, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

In 1097 I did change Edward the Confessor to William Rufus (Edward the Confessor died in 1065). But it needs a further correction: William Rufus built the Wetsminster Hall but there was Edward the Confessor who started to build the Palace of Westminster

Titus Atomicus

The line: In 1097 William Rufus the son of William the Conqueror began the construction of 'Westminster Hall', the hall was to prove the basis of the Palace of Westminster which throughout the Mediæval period became the prime royal residence.

needs to be rewritten. 

That was Edward the Confessor who started to build The Palace of Westminster. And the Westminster Hall was a part of the Palace The important thing about Westminster Hall is that it (almost :-)survived the fire of 1837 and now it is still housing :-) the House of Lords...

[edit] Is this right?

Taken from the article:

The first Census was in 1801, so early dates are "guesstimates" based on archaeological density of sites compared with known population of the City of London between 1600 - 1800 (i.e., 50,000). Dates from 1300 onwards are based on what is probably better evidence, from historic records. The figures up to 1939 are for the urban area, which corresponded more or less with the City of London up to the end of the Middle Ages, but later rarely coincided with a political boundary. Those for 2001 and 2016 are for Greater London.

Is this correct?. I would have thought that figures from about the 1850s onwards would have been from the Metropolitan Board of Works and later County of London area (now Inner London). G-Man 21:38, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't know...

I added the original figures, which were from the book "Statistique Internationale des Grandes Villes" of the International Institute of Statistics (1931). In that source, it says that the numbers from 1855 until 1929 (last year given) are for the County of Londen, and apparently, the older figures were also for that same area. But someone changed the numbers for 1901 and 1925 to a much higher number. You could try asking him where he got those numbers... Eugene van der Pijll 22:28, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 18th century

I've added an expansion notice to the 18th century section, which is by far the thinnest part of the article. Bhoeble 11:16, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Saxon London

I'm not a linguist or etymologist, but has no one else noticed that bit at the end about Southwark- "Suthringa Geworc (defensive work of the men of Surrey)"- is most likely incorrect, if the part in parentheses is supposed to be the implied meaning? I think it means simply "Southern Works", since "Suthringa" easily becomes "Sutherne", the Old English for "Southern" (according to the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language) with the "ing" at the end making it descriptive, and "Geworc" bears a suspcious resemblance to the modern German word "Gewerk", which means "works", as in a complex of buildings or engineering works. Although if it is "Works", in this case it probably really is a defense "works". So where do "the men of Surrey" come into it? Somebody tell me if I'm right. Just passing through. --84.56.251.36 22:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Travel Guide as a separate page

I created Historical London travel guide as a separate page because it's related to but very different from the history of London. RHaworth first deleted it, and then suggested that it be merged with this page. I think that's a bad idea. Yes, it's important that the two pages not overlap, and the two pages ought to have a similar structure (divided into the same historical eras), but I think it would be wrong to have museum info and such sprinkled through a history article. Greg 18:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

• Let's be precise: I did not delete Historical London travel guide; I made it a redirect. Greg is still not explaining clearly what he intends to put in that page. I get an hint that he may now be planning a fork of List of museums in London. Please explain clearly Greg, what you are proposing. -- RHaworth 19:22, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

If you waited a couple of days, you'd see exactly what I'm proposing. It is not a list of museums, although many interesting historical things are in museums. It is a list of things organized by era that are worth seeing in today's London. It will not copy info out of existing articles such as History of London or List of museums in London. Given that I have a group of a dozen people wanting to work on this project, you seem to be doing your best to make it hard for us to get organized -- I don't want to collect content outside of Wikipedia and then add it in a huge batch. Greg 19:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

• The best way is probably to work at user:Greg Lindahl/London museums and bring it to our attention as soon as possible. Incidentally, why does your list end at 1714 - has nothing museum-worthy happened in London since then? -- RHaworth 19:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I didn't think that was the Wikipedia way -- in the past I've just created pages without having someone like you wanting to have an immediate argument. As to the end date, you're totally jumping to conclusions again, and I really wish you'd stop. Greg 19:46, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I've just redirected the article to this one. Clearly there is some debate and doubt even here that such an article would be anything other than an article fork, and having a completely empty article (well, one sentence and a bunch of headings) is not doing anyone any favours - as it stood it was very close to a speedy deletion candidate. If you want to make a long complex article like this, start it in a user sandbox and move it out once it has content. But I'd advise you to work out exactly what you want the article to be before you bring it into article-space. That way you're less likely to run into trouble from people thinking a merge is in order. A cursory glance at the article's history would make anyone think it was a POV fork no matter what its intention (as I did when BL Lacertae asked for a second opinion on it), and the title looked suspiciously like it was going to be a travel guide (which is one of the things Wikipedia is not. Oh, and one more thing - history isn't a location, so it shouldn't have any kind of geo-stub template. Grutness...wha? 12:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I see that Wikipedia is no longer open like it was, I guess I'll have to develop in secret until this page is a beautiful, complete article, which is exactly how NOT to develop a Wikipedia page. Greg

No-one's saying you have to do this in secret. Start it in a sandbox and ask others for help - lots of articles start as collaborations outside article space. Also no-one's saying it has to be complete before it gets there - but you've surely got to realise that one patently obvious sentence plus several blank headers is too little to survive as an article. At least wait until you've worked out a few lines of what you're going to say before you start writing. Also, as I pointed out, unless you want this to be viewed as a fork - which is definitely how it looks at the moment - work out what is needed in the article first and get some sort of agreement on it. Otherwise no matter how "beautiful" and "complete" it may be, someone is bound to consider for AFD as a duplicate or forked article. Grutness...wha? 01:27, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

When Wikipedia was young, a stub article would not be immediately nuked. Now that I finally got content (despite the 2 people who didn't add stuff because the page had disappeared), my suspicion is that it'll get blown away a couple of more times, given the enthusiasm for deleting things. BTW, I always knew what was to be in the article and why it wasn't a fork, so your advice isn't so useful -- what you seem to be saying is that the article has to immediately show such, which isn't the Wikipedia way. And that's exactly what I'm complaining about. Greg 05:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

It has to show something - even if only one line with an objective, non-obvious fact. As it was, it contained one line which was so self-evident as to be pointless, and a series of empty headers. As I said, it was very close to being speediable. I suspect you're thinking of one-line articles which contain non-obvious facts, and ones that don't seem to duplicate other articles. Or perhaps ones with titles that don't indicate the aim of the article is one covered in WP:NOT. It's the Wikipedia way to keep them, but this article didn't fulfil any of that: no non-obvious content, no indication that it was other than a fork, and a title conflicting with WP:NOT. Is it any wonder it was redirected? Grutness...wha? 07:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

• Greg. You say I really wish you'd stop. I echo that totally: will you please stop moaning - here and on my talk page. You cannot assume the right to create an article. Other editors are expressing genuine, reasonable concerns about it. You must address those concerns and be prepared to accept a consensus. My reaction to what you have created so far is that it is Wikitravel material. I have just had a look there and I think they would welcome you - see how short their history of London is! -- RHaworth 21:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I prefer Wikipedia's terms to Wikitravel, and the content of that article is completely different from the content of the page I started. Tell you what: you start by addressing my concern that you're a power-mad twit for insisting all stub pages immediately follow the rules you think are important instead of waiting a couple of days to see what actually happens, and after you're done with that, I'll address one concern of yours. We'll alternate. Fair? Greg 05:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

first thing you need to address is WP:CIVIL. Grutness...wha? 05:29, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology of -wych/-wic

My understanding is that the suffix -wic (as in Lundenwic) which became -wych (Aldwych) means bay or creek, and is also used for ports, and does not mean settlement. This is consistent with all the various -wicks and -wyches I can think of in England. DrHydeous 20:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Missplaced text?

"In 1780 London was rocked by the Gordon Riots, an uprising by Protestants against Roman Catholic emancipation led by Lord George Gordon. Severe damage was caused to Catholic churches and homes, and 285 rioters were killed."

Why is this placed under the 1800 hundreds?--Diablo65 07:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It's under the 18th century, which is the right place to put it. --Dave A 14:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] London's Local Government

There should be links to Metropolitan Board of Works-Greater London Authority etc. Jackiespeel 17:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New template

I have created a new navigational template for history articles related to London - {{London history}}. Please add it to any relevant pages or add anything that is missing. Cheers, DJR (T) (WC) 18:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Long article

This page is 57 kilobytes and could probably get longer. Is there any appetite to split the article as for History of New York City into articles for significant periods? Mrsteviec 09:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)