Talk:History of Hawaii

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Contents 1 UN & Plebiscite 2 UN 1999 3 Titles 4 Sources 5 NPOV 6 Oops 7 Alcohol and prostitution

[edit] UN & Plebiscite

I am removing from the article History of Hawaii to here the sentence

In 1999, the United Nations declared that the plebiscite vote that led to Hawaii's statehood was in violation of article 73 of the United Nations' charter.

• This is unacceptably vague as to what body (Security Council, General Assembly, or one of a flock of far less influential ones) is involved.
• It is supported
  • primarily by clones copied from WP,
  • secondarily by a few sites ranging from strident, PoV, and loosely reasoning to looney, and
  • not at all, at least in several hours of Google work, by any site that gives an exact date, a specific UN body, or the name or number of any UN document other than the Charter.

I assume there is some real event behind it. If that event is an explicit ruling to the effect stated (and not something vague that partisans claim implies such violation) then i hope we can verify it and put more suitable language back into the article in place of this. --Jerzy 09:21, 2004 Feb 13 (UTC)

[edit] UN 1999

I assume there is some real event behind it. If that event is an explicit ruling to the effect stated (and not something vague that partisans claim implies such violation) then i hope we can verify it and put more suitable language back into the article in place of this.

Actually I know only that the UN confirmed that the plebiscite vote that led to Hawaii's statehood was in violation of Article 73 of the United Nations' charter. This was prompted by the United States Public Law 103-150. I'm not sure exactly what type of factual evidence you are looking for. Mamoahina 14:34, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

But how do you know this? People told you. Were they right? We don't know. As Jerzy said, we don't know WHICH arm of the UN did this confirmation. I very much doubt it went to the General Assembly. It had to have been a committee then, or something like that. We just need a reference, online or in a book, to pin it down. Zora 18:48, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Titles

Although I support the neutrality philosophy of WikiPedia, the title United States Government Minister doesn't make much sense to Americans since no such title exists. I'm guessing that it is relating to the Secretary of the Department of State. Does United States Government Minister make more sense to non-Americans? I don't know but the titles sure make it confusing. Perhaps a small addition clearing this up would be of some help?

Apparently, at the time, "United States Government Minister" was the official designation for what today is simply called the "ambassador" to a country. But most readers today, whether American or not, wouldn't know this. So I agree, it should be explained. IslandGyrl 13:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

This is one of the many pages on Wikipedia which I feel would really benefit from listed references. If anybody knows where the body of this work came from I highly suggest that you post it to resolve any conflicts, to allow further research, and to fact-check that which is already there. Nrbelex 01:48, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

This article seems to get away from NPOV in the last two paragraphs. Specifically, calling a lack of debate on the merits "unfortunate", and labeling the "Akaka Bill" as of "dubious constitutionality" (as opposed to, say, "debated constitutionality"). I'm changing them. JRoman 06:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and isn't including links for direct sources in the body of the text, a la the Bruce Fein PDF, frowned upon? JRoman 06:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you JRoman for helping make it more NPOV. I'm not sure what the policy for direct sources in the text is though...do you have a link to anything regarding that policy? --JereKrischel 01:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Try this Wikipedia:cite_sources. It doesn't explicitly state that the present way is wrong, but it gives alternatives that seem more typical of Wikipedia style. Because, let's face it, the whole colon at the end of the sentence thing is kind of ugly, no? Perhaps the appropriate thing to do would be to conclude the sentence as "criticized for factual errors." and then include a footnote-style link to the references section, which would then link to the PDF. What do you think? JRoman 03:34, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Roman, what you suggest sounds great...I don't know how to do a footnote-style link to the references section...could you make the change as you suggested so I can see how it is done? Thanks! --JereKrischel 05:34, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oops

Edit summary was some kind of the "hands in wrong position on keyboard" mistake. Sorry

I rewrote the section about the coming of the missionaries. I'm well up on this, having just edited a 400-page history of Honolulu for a local press. The rest of the article deserves a look, but I don't have time now. Zora 07:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alcohol and prostitution

The Christian chiefs attempted to rule the islands as a Christian nation, which led to intense conflicts with other resident Westerners and visiting ships, all of whom preferred the old regime of abundant alcohol and promiscuous sexual relations.

What is the source of this last clause? Some hundred-year-old encyclopedia? Why does the clause not also refer to spiritual beliefs and values but only to two items usually classified as "vices"? --Badagnani

Badagnani, problems with alcohol and prostitution are very well documented -- by current historians. Once the missionaries had the ear of the chiefs, they tried to put an end to chaotic conditions in the ports of Honolulu and Lahaina. The sailors and sea captains resisted vigorously. They rioted, burned down a jail (if I'm remembering correctly), and would have killed a missionary if the Hawaiian governor and his men hadn't intervened.

Both the alcohol and the prostitution were introduced by the sailors; they were not part of indigenous Hawaiian culture. However, there was nothing in the indigenous culture to prevent this "drunken randy sailor on leave" culture either. Hawaiians drank their 'awa and were notoriously easy-going in matters of sex. This was easily distorted into drinking alcohol and having sex for pay.

I'm constantly pressed for time, but I can try to put some of this explanation into the article. Or, you can transfer what I've written. Just don't try to erase part of Hawai'i's past because you find it embarrassing. Zora 02:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Badagnani, I'm confused as to what your concern with the clause is - are you asking that we should refer to the spiritual beliefs and values of the Westerner sailors? Are you under the impression that there were intense conflicts due to spiritual beliefs and values with Westerner sailors? Your question isn't very clear. --JereKrischel 10:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)