Talk:Hip hop culture

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[edit] Rapping

This article covers the topic completely. It is well written, accurate, sourced, and readable. I would like to recieve more feedback before I nominate it as an FA candidate.

  1. Old peer review Wikipedia:Peer review/Rapping/Archive2 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chubdub (talk • contribs) .
  • I started off the last peer review, and I'll start off this one also.
  • See also First FAC
  • Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:MOSDATE, years, decades, and centuries without full dates generally should not be linked. For example, January 2006 should not be linked, instead change it to January 2006. Also, please note WP:BTW and WP:CONTEXT, which state that years with full dates should be linked. For example, February 28, 2006, should be come February 28, 2006.
  • Per WP:MOS#Headings, headings generally do not start with the word "The". For example, ==The Biography== would be changed to ==Biography==.
  • I think "History" can still be made more comprehensive
It seems as though all of your concerns have been addressed, except perhaps adding to the history section. What would you want added there?--Urthogie 10:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The external links section describes the BBC page as a wiki. Is this accurate? Tim Ivorson 2006-05-28

The flow section has a link labelled "prosody", which points to a disambiguation page. I don't know which of the, presumably related, meanings of prosody is intended, but one of them is meter (poetry), which is linked from the next paragraph. If they both mean the same thing, only one of them needs to be a link, according to WP:MOS-L#Internal links.

In the same section, it would be nice to expand the discussion of metre. The article mentions Run-DMC as employing trochaic pentameter, but I found a web disussion, [1] which quotes Dana Gioia as using Run-DMC as an example of accentual metre (rather than accentual-syllabic metre, of which trochaic pentameter is an example):

Rap consciously exploits stress-meter's ability to stretch and contract in syllable count. In fact, playing the syllable count against the beat is the basic metrical technique of rap. Like jazz, rap extravagantly syncopates a flexible rhythm against a fixed metrical beat thereby turning a traditional English folk meter into something distinctly African-American. By hitting the metrical beat strongly while exploiting other elements of word music, rappers play interesting and elaborate games with the total rhythm of their lines. Here is a syncopated couplet from Run DMC:
He's the better of the best, best believe he's the baddest
Perfect timing when I'm climbing I'm the rhyming acrobatist
(14 and 16 syllables respectively)
. . . .
If rap were a written form of poetry, its complex syncopation would frequently push the meter to a breaking point. A reader would not always know exactly where the strong stresses fell. See how difficult it is to discern the four strong stresses in the first Run DMC couplet quoted, simply from the printed text . . . . Anglo-Saxon poets understood the problem inherent in strong-stress verse. That is at least one reason why they added alliteration to reinforce the meter. In rap the meter is also enforced by what its performers call "the beat," usually a pre-recorded digitally sampled rhythm-track. Traditional prosody describes the rhythm of poetry as the meaningful counterpoint of speech pattern against a fixed abstract meter. That same principle of expressive counterpoint is quite literally what rap does and its audience hears and enjoys.

I'd go ahead and edit, but I don't know how to tackle this. Tim Ivorson 2006-05-28

word. i'll try and add something that explains how much it varies-- but i'm not music theorist!!--Urthogie 18:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

I am a beatmaker that also does production work, and thier are alot of people that call themselves 'producer' when in reality they are just beatmakers I want to add a section on beatmaking, since beats are integral part of a song which is part of hiphop. It may not be an element, but it is important. I do not want to start adding informatin without feedback, This is my idea A brief history of beatmaking and the tech behind it. From the jacking samples of vinly's (analog) to strickly surround sound projects digital.

WeLL again let's have a discussion Should we add Beatmaking to the the culture of hiphop I vote for yes Dec 20 05 btw am 'T6' from the csdkrew (csdkrew.com) I added oodles tonight. It reads as being haphazard and disorganized though, so if anyone wants to fix it, feel free.

One danger is that this becomes a history of two of the four aspects of hip hop, emceeing and deejaying. While graffiti and breakdancing are obviously less popular these days, and there's no need to force the article to give all four equal time, breakdancing is barely mentioned and graffiti has a single confused paragraph. Tuf-Kat

P.S. Are there too many pix?

Needs: breakdancing, more on regional styles, especially West Coast and Southern rap, a clarification of the whole electro funk paragraph, expansion on international hip hop, a history of artists who were not black and male, more on go go and Miami bass

Yes, too many pictures and I was contemplating moving the pix to Rap. Hip hop should have a picture on graffiti since its solely visual and perhaps another picture of a breakdancer in mid-air or rotating on his head. These two elements could use the visualization, but yes, rap should have most of the textual space. Usedbook 21:27 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)
Neither of the photos are of rappers (well, Herc a little bit, but that's not what he's known for). How about moving the bulk of the article as it stands to hip hop music (including all the pix -- I looked for graffiti, but couldn't find any historically important tags suitable for Wikipedia) and making this one about all four elements equally (and using a pic or two for each one)? Tuf-Kat
I was speaking of the 6 rap album cover pictures but not the Grandmaster-flash and Afrika Bambaataa ones. Some of these could be placed in Rapping (which has no images). In regards to the tag image, I'm not an expert at Wikipedia and image policy. We must get permission (from perhaps Artcrimes.Com) for an image. I suggest one of Taki 183. I just finished a paragraph at Graffiti art by the way. Usedbook 22:54 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)
Oh, well I still think hip hop music is a better place. Putting a history of hip hop music at rapping would be like moving a history of heavy metal to heavy metal singing. Tuf-Kat
I've done this. The first two paras are duplicated, but I didn't want to bother rewriting until the basic layout of both pages was more firm. What do you think?
Looks great, much appreciated work you've done here. Be well. Usedbook

I had to fiddle with the picture formatting somewhat to get it to fit onto the page without sideways scrolling. Weird. -- Michael 04:42 21 May 2003 (UTC)

I removed:

(The hip-hop slang term for instrumentals including other instruments is beat even though beats traditionally refer only to drums)

Because I don't think it's true. Beats can be made by any of a variety of instruments, including rattles, clapping, vocals, etc, and I don't think the ever applied only to drums. Tuf-Kat 23:46, Jan 1, 2004 (UTC)

This page has a lot of redundancy with hip hop music. There's a pile of reorganisation and refactoring to be done with these two pages. - David Gerard 00:51, Jan 11, 2004 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia for the masses, and those who do not listen to hip-hop are often confused by the expression "beat" used to denote the entire instrumental which includes both "drum" beats as well as other instruments (pianos, horns, bass what have you) I think it is relevant to include this note. This page is rather generic right now. I wonder if it needs more detail.

"And Dont forget gangstaness." - needs to be properly integrated with the article, but the kid's got a point there. - David Gerard 00:31, Jan 14, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] hip-hop

"Graffiti has roots in Hieroglyphics" - sounds like a bit of a long shot. Is there any evidence for this?

It seems rather obvious. What makes it seem like a long shot? --FuriousFreddy 01:06, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I removed this:

Who were the first Rappers? Why did people start scratching records? Where did Rap start? Whodini, the Treacherous Three, the Fat Boys, Kurtis Blow, and The Father of the Scratch - Grand Master Flash. All of this was going on in the late late 70's and the early 80's

Besides being slightly irrelevant to this article (all of those persons mentioned are hip-hop music recording arts for major labels, and are properly mentioned in the hip-hop music article)...why is it in question format? Looks like mild vandalism to me. --FuriousFreddy 16:45, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Quote in intro from www.templeofhiphop.com

Should the bit about the 9 elements of hip hop be included in the intro paragraph? I have a lot of respect for KRS-ONE, but I think most people could agree that his opinions are quite controversial, and that his personal website is not the best unbiased sources for this article. The 9 elements thing is taking it a bit far.illWill 17:10, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The nine elements theme is pretty well-known, and it applies to aspects of hip-hop culture not covered by the traditional four elements. --FuriousFreddy 20:59, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Oh, wait. I see what you were saying. I fixed it. --FuriousFreddy 21:06, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Good stuff on the reword. I think more material needs to be added on how hip-hop describes its own cultural aspects (in line with ethnographical work by people like Tricia Rose and Nelson George, but I think iit's good to aim at the mainstream in the introductory para to probably the biggest subculture on the planet. Much as I dislike the idea, we do have to consider that this article may frequently be accessed/linked to people that think hip hop was invented by Nelly and P Diddy on a weekend in the Hamptons.
Anyway, I've got some ideas to expand this article, and agree that hip-hop (as there is a separate article on hip hop music) should be defined as a complete culture. I've got a huge collection of reference/academic book on hip-hop here, so I might add some amterial from them and list them in the books session. Also, is there some kind of category about hip-hop films? More kids need to know about Style WarsillWill 21:14, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
...and Beat Street. And Krush Groove as well. --FuriousFreddy 22:11, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] contradictory info

the first paragraph of this article claims african-americans in jamaica started the hiphop movement in 1920. Next the article claims hiphop was influenced by dub style music, a music from the 60s. This seems contradictory. Also, african-AMERICANS in jamaica? I agree hiphop is mainly from african-americans, but not in jamaica!Although hiphop WAS influenced by preceeding styles and cultures I do believe it originated in the bronx,new york. Besides the breif history following the first paragraph more truly explains the movements origins. Also hiphop was claimed a culture in the 80s.(i forget by who but i'll get back to that.)

I am too much an unexperienced wikipedia user to dare change and edit this article completely, but it seems to need it. Maybe credits to koolherc as too innovating back-to-back drum breaks, and grandmaster flash as too refining the technique to the use of the same break repeated to create the first true hiphop beat. Grand wizard theodore as inventor of the scratch technique.

I also edited the part about graffiti having its roots in egyptian heiroglyphes.This is untrue. Graffiti art as we know it today has its roots in the "bob was here" style graffiti. (unsigned comment)

true, the introduction is a little confusing. As for graffiti, there is argument to say that graffiti (in the sense of writing on walls) was found in both ancient egypt and Rome. needs re-wording though.illWill 20:05, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes there is writing on walls in rome, greece, egypt, sumer, china etc...etc.

BUT this is not the hiphop form of grafitti art,therefore does not belong on this page.Also the comment edited cited heiroglyphs as an influence to modern hiphop graffiti,wich is not true.

Also,an explanation of the origins of the term "hiphop" would be nice(the sugarhill gang song.) And the current meaning/acronym coined by KRS-one(His/Her Infinite Power Helps Oppressed People) (unsigned comment)

The etymology of the term hip-hop is mysterious, and I don't think suggesting it originated with the Sugar Hill Gang would go down too well. Also, the KRS-One term is a backronym, and whilst there might be a great article on the use of such terms in hip-hop - it probably couldn't be called the 'meaning' - unless it's somebody's personal meaning, which of oucrse is fine. illWill 21:30, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There really does need to be at least a short discussion of the etymology, though, since many people will wonder where the term does come from. Stating that the origin is unclear is good, along with the earliest known cite (anyone have one predating Rapper's Delight? If so, what?)
Regarding Jamaica in the 1920s, I removed it. I've never heard such a claim. I also removed the reference to KRSONE's nine elements of hip hop as not really necessary. If someone really thinks its important, at least cite it directly (as in KRS-ONE said "there are nine elements of hip hop"). Most of the nine supposed elements are already listed elsewhere in the paragraph anyway. A more complex description of what different people have defined hip hop as ought to be in a separate section near the top of the article. The wikipedia:lead section should just give a basic scope to the article, with more details elsewhere. Tuf-Kat 22:44, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
And I agree wholeheartedly about removing the reference to ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs as a kind of graffiti art. That's just silly. Tuf-Kat 22:45, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] graffiti

since there is already an extensive article about graffiti in wikipedia, we should limit the one in the hiphop section to a breif historical overview of hip-hop graffiti and take out all the namedropping.Just a few dates, information about the styles and evolution of mediums.The "subway art","wildstyle" media that pushed the movement worldwide. P.S. I think the 9 elements were appropriate.(hip-hop as a culture does include street fashion, language and buisness,wether KRS said it or not.) P.P.S:taki 183 did not spawn urban graffiti art,he was the first to appear in the paper(New York Times),and yes he was prolific.


the WHOLE section on graffiti glorifies it in a really baised way.


[edit] Political Emancipation

The wiki page Political_emancipation could use some attention. Currently it is only a stub. Particularly the explanation of the term 'political emancipation' entailing 'equal status of individual citizens in relation to the state, equality before the law, regardless of religion, property, or other “private” characteristics of individual persons' is construed to be an 'opinion' and 'not delivering a neutral point of view.' Does anyone have more information on the word 'emancipation' also being used in the political context of establishing (or any step moving towards) equality in light of the law? Inserting the Voting Rights Act as such a step of political emancipation, for instance, was repeatedly erased.

The question one could pose, is: When there have been only 3 African-American Senators in modern times (out of more than the 1500 Senators in total), would you say that political emancipation has been achieved?

FredrickS 19:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links

In added a link to "temple of hip-hop" wbsite. It was erased yesterday. Please do not erase it again: this is probably the most relevant link on this page.The temple of hip-hop was started by krs-one to promote hip-hop as a culture.Please leave the link.

I removed the tyte squezze production link.Its only self-promotion and has no pertinent info to wikipedia users in general.

[edit] B.boyin

why does the article say that breakin´ battles are less common than rap battles? I don´t know f the person who wrote that knows anything about b.boying, but as any b.boy/b.girl can tell you, battling is an essential part of this dance style. In fact i´m thinking of b.boying events and competitions and, while they may give it more or less importance, battles are always there... Freestyle Session, Lords of the floor, BCone, Total Session, Chelles Pro Am etc all of these b.boyin events focus on battles.Violenciafriki 16:28, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I think they meant that MC battles are held more often than breaking battles, which I've found to be true (although b-boy battles are ussually larger, all-day events, while MC battles typically last a few hours) --FuriousFreddy 18:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


No, what you´re talking about are b.boyin events, which can take a number of forms. But a battle is the competition of two sides b.boying. It can be one versus one, two versus two... up till any number, including one b.boying crew versus another crew. Events usually have battles at them (because that´s the way to find which of the crews/b.boys is better so they can claim the prize) but battles can also happen anywhere, in the street, at a club, if two or more b.boys find they want to prove they are better than the other. In fact most b.boys focus on battles, even developing their own "battle attitude" trying to find ways to act in battles that are not related to dancing, but which can serve to demoralize the competing side, winning the crowd´s favor, etc (an example of this may be the ultra aggressive battle attittude Benji of DA used to have, pulling down his opponent´s pants, etc). Violenciafriki 16:28, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] editing debate:

I haven't done this before. I think in general, the article is a bit redundant -- information on Kool Herc etc. gets mentioned at least twice in substantially similar formulations. Also, I think it should be attributed to African Americans -- not Africans. Saying it has West African roots in a general sense is one thing, but it wasn't the West African community in NY that started hip hop. If I get a chance I may take a stab at cleaning it up a bit.


I wrote a compromised paragraph for both section fo the article that User:82.43.52.176 and User:Will Lakeman are having the dispute about, to make sure that they read correctly and accurately. Hip-hop itself did not originate with the griots (there is a 400 year gap between the beginnings of the slave trade adn the development of hip hop), although they are a major and notable influence. Furthermore, "hip hop" here is defning the culture, shich is more than just the work of MCs/griots.

It can not be determined if Capoeira is a direct ancestor to breakdancing; the two are indeed similar, so it is a possibility. I have, in none of my research materials on hip hop culture, no information on a significant Brazillian population in the South Bronx or a Brazillian influence on the early development of hip-hop. That is not to say that it may not have happened; we just don't have factual evidence. Therefore, the paragraph now suggests that it is a possible influence.

This page has been protected from editing, and will remain that way until both parties agree to the compromise. Will Lakeman has already done so at my talk page. 82.43.52.176 violated the 3RR (several times) and has been reported at Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress. --FuriousFreddy 22:26, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm fine with the compromise - I'd be happy to discuss any further edits, and to see links to studies which show that the griots exactly resemble hip-hop. illWill 22:58, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] griot hip hop

I think it's strange that the text says hip hop existed as one of the traditions of the African griots ("the griots of West Africa; travelling singers and poets whose musical style is hip hop"). To me it looks like a thoughtless formulation, but it is possible there are some who believe this. I don't think i've seen it argued anywhere else, and if hip hop is defined as the cultural composite of the four elements, then isn't it strange to identify the musical style of the griots as "hip hop". I mean I haven't seen them headnodding or constructing beats, they might have been like Flash or Bam avant la lettre. Rhythmic declamation or something akin to what is today known as rapping does not hip hop make, right?

You'll have to excuse us; we've been having vandalism problems on the page. That sentence should read: "Elements of the style and techniques of rapping originate with the griots of West Africa; travelling singers and poets whose musical style contains elements of what would later evolve into hip-hop music." I have repaired it. --FuriousFreddy 05:06, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Move page

For reasons of clarity and disambiguity, this page should be moved to hip hop culture, and hip hop should remain as a disambiguation page. --FuriousFreddy 18:23, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I vote for moving it. --Poweroid

Okay with me. Tuf-Kat 20:00, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. I've done the move, someone here should make the appropriate disambig and probably go through and make sure all the links presently point here are going to the right place. Dragons flight 06:17, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Brittanica error

I have made a listing for "hip-hop" at Wikipedia:Errors in the Encyclopædia Britannica that have been corrected in Wikipedia#hip-hop because I feel Britannica's opening for that article is misleading or outright wrong. The issue revolves around the claim that hip hop is the backing music for rap, the musical style incorporating rhythmic and/or rhyming speech that became the movement's most lasting and influential art form. Tuf-Kat 20:31, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] EB comment and gen. hiphop comment/ques.

Tuf-Kat, I saw your EB comment. It should differenciate more between hip hop music and hip hop culture. (and other little issues like how hip hop does exist without vocals, as a tablist and producer, i actually got into hiphop many years ago because of instrumentals (and not just instrumental tracks of regular songs. but stand alone works.)) i agree about how they awkwardly weighed rap over the other elements.

also on another side note regarding this wikipedia article in general. i was under the impression that Lovebug Starski was the one who coined the term "hip hop." good work tho. i am new to wikipedia, but i'll like to add what i can to this article. (at work now tho.) Threes 28092005


Questions I would like to see more clearly answered include the first recording (successful or not), and first hit recording of the following:

  • Rhyming wrapping
  • Scratching
  • Mixing (editing in several other recordings)
  • Beatboxing

[edit] Battling

Cut from article:

Others feel that this is all a part of hip hop.

The phrase "feel that this is all a part" is ambiguous. Does it mean that:

  • Because it is currently a part of hip hop, it should always be a part (on the grounds that no culture should ever change)?; or, simply
  • These others feel it should be a part of hip hop, because it's "good" or because "they like it"?

Remember, this is a general-purpose encyclopedia. Not everyone who reads this article understands hip hop. Let's not confuse them. Uncle Ed 18:54, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from top

OK - added - "science" as fifth element of hip-hop culture. Absolutely sine qua non - with the possible exception of breakdancing - really there is no way to get around it - consider it the fifth element - the of the hip-hop movement

Solids, liquids, gases, plasmas, and Bose-Einstein condensates are all different states of matter - and every earthly culture negotiates with these states on some level - that's reality. Appreciation of these relationships becomes the literature of our times

- either you deal with reality or you don't - if you're on some trip other than reality, this may not be the place for you to play, cause the real hip-hop keeps it straight and talks to the wise and thosee with the most open third eyes. oh - you wanted objective and the surreal steps on yer toes? tough love brothers and sisters. tough love.

I reverted your change. I've never heard of science being an element of hip hop. Can you cite a source for this? Tuf-Kat 02:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
That's not very likely to happen. Not even KRS-ONE cites "science" as an element of hip hop culture. It sounds like the writing of a Five Precenter. --FuriousFreddy 00:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] why this page should be moved

This page should be moved to Hip-hop culture because we always refer to it as hip-hop. this page should be a redirect and switched with it.

It's fine with or without the hyphen. Hyphenation is really a non-issue. --FuriousFreddy 17:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, I've reconisidered, and that's the correct stance. I was being nitpicky.Urthogie 19:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC) agreed science is not an element of hiphop but it would be nice

[edit] DJing

I might be off base here, but I think the citing of "famous" DJ's might be a bit excessive. Could it be pared down a bit to highlight "key" DJ's? The list of rappers in the MC section seems like a good example, as it cites the most well known of their era/genre's. I know it's tough not to cite your favorites.maxcap 00:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed the red-linked DJ's this morningmaxcap 13:15, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hip hop models

Someone's written an article called Videogirls about the models who appear in hip-hop videos, like Melyssa Ford and Esther Baxter. Actually it's on AFD at the moment, but it seems like notable aspect of the culture, interested editors might want to help fix it, or add some content here. Kappa 07:19, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

It's currently on vote for deletion. I voted to keep, but rename it to Women in hip-hop videos(you can see my reasons why on the VfD). Once its renamed I'd be glad to help with the content. It's important that we get it renamed before we take futher steps with it.--Urthogie 11:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hip hop as dismabiguation page

I'm suggesting Hip hop be turned back into a redirect to this page (Hip hop culture). Please discuss at Talk:Hip hop#Redirect or disambig. Thanks! Ewlyahoocom 04:59, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strange

I guess drugs, gangs, violence, and the objectification of women have nothing to do with hip hop culture at all. I guess I'm just completely mistaken, misinformed, ignorant, and let's not forget racist. Haizum 09:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


If you really believe that then yes you're are. There's alot of hiphop heads that are the exact opposite.

[edit] External links section

The external links section seems excessive to me, are alll these links of value? Please refer to WP:EL maxcap 18:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] clothes.. awe yes..clothing trends

Hip hop plays a major role in what we wear.. okay maybe just for the people who the follow trends.. should there be a timeline as what was hip and what was not for the clothing?

I say no, maybe you're a wannabe black who wants to destroy humanity, but most people don't follow the trend of evil.

[edit] Skateboarding

could skateboarding be included in the "other elements" section? Has skateboarding truely become an element of hip hop? Seen the Lupe Fiasco video? thats just the tip of the diamond iceberg. I am wondering though, your thoughts. When did hip hop and skate culture start to merge. Maybe sometime in the early 90s? Just a thought, I know as a skater that hip hop is definitely equal if not (and probably) more associated with skating than harcore/punk rock (which was a closer association in the early and throught the 80s and early 90s. I'm gonna check the skateboarding article to see what they say there. Xsxex 23:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Violence

As another user identified, this article will never be complete without references to actual hip hop lyrics. The glorification of drugs, violence, materialism, and objectification of women are examples. What does it say about the artist's world view? How did this world view develop? How was hip hop influenced by urban poverty, and how has it influenced the modern urban poor.

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