Talk:Hindu nationalism

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Hello All Wikipeople,

This article aims to elaborate not only the political nationalism, which is covered by Hindutva, also more the historical foundations, and the religious, cultural expression of nationalism. Thus this is a much larger project and beyond just Hindutva.

This article is also closely linked to the projects on Indian Nationalism, Hindu and Hinduism - Nirav Maurya —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rama's Arrow (talk • contribs).

Contents

[edit] Hindutva

My main case, as the author and creator of this article project, for Hindu Nationalism's disctinction from Hindutva rests on three points:

(1) There are large numbers of Hindus in India who do not accept Hindutva as their political expression or idea of patriotism or nationalism. Yet these are Hindus, and impact the expression of Hindu society and India as a whole.

(2) Hindu nationalism is far more diverse than the just expanding the formulations of Savarkar, Syama Prasad Mookerjee and the RSS, VHP and the BJP. It is rooted in the ancient history of India, with the period of Islamic invasions and empires.

(3) Lokmanya Tilak, Mahatma Gandhi, Sardar Patel and Purushottam Das Tandon were not Hindutva adherents, but were with a different kind of Hindu pride. Why should they be crammed into Hindutva?

Jai Shree Rama,

Nirav Maurya—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rama's Arrow (talk • contribs).

[edit] Use of {main} template

Do not use more than five articles with the main template. --Stbalbach 17:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] verify tag &pov issues

"brutal Muslim kings", "Valiant Hindu monarch-warriors", "heroes of Hindu nationalism" are pov.

verify tag because no sources are provided and for statements such as

  • "Hindu nationalism is the political and cultural expression of Indian nationalism distinctive to the Hindu people, adherents of Hinduism who form the vast majority of the population of India" (is "hindu nationalism" universally subscribed to, by all hindus, as implied here)
  • "roots of Hindu pride and nationalism go back to the history of India and the days of the Islamic empires in India" (do they? how does one verify that they do?)
  • when a small but militarily powerful Muslim population was economically and politically dominating the vastly Hindu populations of India. (was there economic domination? was there political domination of all india by muslims?)
  • "Hindus draw inspiration and pride from the Hindu empires of ...", (do they? how does one verify that they do, can sources be provided, again, do all hindus subscribe to this view?)
  • "Sikhs were the prime military forces protecting Hindu communities from Muslim pogroms and the vagaries of the Mughal Empire."

Doldrums 12:53, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

pov issues remains unaddressed, can u please post relevent quotes from sources provided which substantiate
  • economic domination of hindu population by muslims
  • the "sikhs were the prime ..." statement
Doldrums 07:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
ALL OF THESE POINTS are verified in the sources mentioned sir, and in most Indian history textbooks.

Perhaps you are not aware of the 1,000 years of the Delhi Sultanate and the Mughal Empire, which will answer all your points on Muslim economic and political domination.

The Khalsa was formed as a retaliation against Muslim pogroms of Sikhs and Hindus.

However, I understand your point on POV language which I will now edit out.

Jai Sri Rama!

Rama's Arrow 16:36, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

my search of the online sources provided did not turn up any support for the above assertions. perhaps you can be good enough to point them out individually, and to provide relevant quotes from history books which support these claims as stated in the article.

imo, this article suffers from problems of pov and verifiability and needs to be tagged as such. sample this from the opening paragraphs.

  • Hinduism has been the seen by many as the definitive element of ... life of the ordinary Indian for over five thousand years.
who is the ordinary indian? is he/she restricted to be a hindu, in which case this is a tautology. for a non-hindu indian how is this claim going to be verified?
  • The politics, science and learning, and the economy and administration in India evolved from Hindu tenets of religion, statecraft and culture.
not to the exclusion of classical european, islamic, modern european influences.
  • The roots of Hindu pride and nationalism go back to the history of India and the days of the Islamic empires in India, the Delhi Sultanate and the Mughal Empire, when a small but militarily powerful Muslim population was economically and politically dominating the vastly Hindu populations of India.
sources supporting a "hindu pride and nationalism" going back to the days of the sultanate & the mughals.
sources for blanket "economic domination", for that matter, "political domination" of hindus by muslims. at no point was all of india under muslim rule, economic domination in the form of revenue collection or trade regulation was practiced, even under muslim rulers, by both hindu and muslim feudetories and officials.
  • The main incitement of Hindu passions arise from the mass destruction of Hindu temples such as the Somnath Temple in Gujarat, the descretion of holy Hindu institutions in Ayodhya, Kashi, Mathura, Allahabad and Haridwar and the killings, lootings and rape of an indeterminate but large number of Hindus during a series of Islamic invasions from Afghanistan and Persia, by Muslim kings like Mahmud of Ghazni, Muhammad Ghori, Ahmed Shah Durrani and Nadir Shah.
how do u support this? opinions polls? of which period? do the sample attempt to cover all hindus?
what is a "indeterminate but large" number? 5? 500? 50,000, 5,00,000? is it larger compared to the killings, lootings and rape during conflicts between hindu rulers? sources.
  • Hindu monarch-warriors like Shivaji, Maharana Pratap and Prithviraj Chauhan were the earliest heroes of Hindu nationalism. Hindus draw inspiration and pride from the Hindu empires of the Gupta Dynasty, the Rajput kings of modern Rajasthan, the southern Vijayanagara empire of Karnataka and the Maratha Empire of modern day Maharashtra.
hindu nationalism of which period? modern-day? how do you know what hindus draw inspiration from? source opinion polls or quote these as statements of individuals or hindu leaders.
the maratha empire is not of "modern-day maharashtra".
  • The Sikh empire of Maharaja Ranjit Singh in Punjab and Kashmir is also key to Hindu pride and inspiration, as the Sikhs were the prime military forces protecting Hindu communities from Muslim pogroms and the vagaries of the Mughal Empire.
which "pogroms"? were sikhs the prime military forces protecting hindu communities everywhere in the mughal empire, from muslim pogroms?
  • Religious and conservative Indian Muslims considered the mainstream Indian nationalism of the 20th century to be the political expression of India's majority Hindu communities. Indeed, the rising Islamic fundamentalism and Muslim suspicion of the Indian National Congress caused conservative Hindus to re-define their own expression of nationalism and patriotism, precipitating of the formation of a more distinctly Hindu political and cultural nationalism.
these are unsupported claims. require quotes from those who u ascribe these views to.

Doldrums 13:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Answer to above questions

Dear Doldrums,

Let me first say that I'm already studying how to improve this article and others I've created to conform better with Wikipedia standards. I'm working on eliminating POV, but understand that this is a contentious issue and people will want to remove a lot of material that is justified in its presence.

Having said that, I must state that I disagree with you on virtually every point.

The status of this article should remain "NEEDS EXPANSION" becuase there is a lot of ground to cover before you can make any judgment on the article. It needs more information.

if u also feel that this article needs much work before it achieves npov and verifiability standards, i suggest that those tags be added to the article. another alternative is for u to develop the article "in peace" in ur user space and post it here once u feel that it has achieved the required degree of npov, verifiability. Doldrums 14:36, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] References

First off, all the sources I've listed are books, not online materials. I don't know what research you've done.

Arrow of the Blue-Skinned God discusses many things about Hindu nationalism, about Hindu and Indian history in the context of the Ramayana in modern Indian life.

Patel: A Life is a biography of Sardar Patel, but gives a plethora of information about the political environment, the events, and most importantly for here, the views of Congress politicians like Gandhi, Tandon and Patel himself on Hindu-Muslim questions, and the all important partition.

In addition, if you can procure the book you should check out the section regarding the annexation of Hyderabad, which concurrently discusses Hindu-Muslim history in India in several passages.

Hindutva is Hindutva, as per Savarkar.

Links to biographical and historical articles within Wikpedia are also references. Indeed, most of your questions would be answered simply by studying those articles.

statements in the article which are only substantiated by works such as the above must be quoted as such. there is a difference between saying "Hindu passions are aroused by <insert cause>" and saying "In his work ..., <insert author> asserts that hindu passions are aroused by ...". this is an issue of verifiability that i suggest u examine closely, as it crops up repeatedly in the article. note also that a wikipedia article cannot be the sole source of a statement in another wiki article.

[edit] Factual accuracy and NPOV

[edit] Sikh history=

  • Please read of Sikh history, the formation of Khalsa in a reputable book or right here on Wikipedia, to understand how Sikh military efforts and the Sikh kingdom helped avoid Muslim pogroms, of the likes perpetrated by Aurangzeb.

Note especially Guru Tegh Bahadur, who gave up his life to protect Kashmiri Hindus.

[edit] Destruction and Pogroms

Please read of the Ram Janmabhoomi Mandir dispute in Ayodhya. Understand that WHILE the dispute IS A DISPUTE, it is the assertion and belief of Hindu nationalists that a Ram temple is the right thing in terms of history and righteousness. Since this article is about Hindu nationalism, we cannot but help discuss the Hindu nationalist way of thinking clearly.

This article is about Hindu nationalist thinking - if talk Hindu nationalism regarding VHP, RSS, they claim its about all Hindus.

You are right that the language should be changed to distinguish the fact that not all Hindus subscribe to all this, but Hindu nationalism does.

[edit] Influence of Hinduism in India

  • Please see History of Hinduism. Especially note how Hinduism has been the largest religion in India for over 5,000 years, and it has deeply influenced and has been deeply influenced by religions like Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism.

The existence of the caste system on a massive scale across India is one strong proof of the widespread influence of Hinduism on Indian life.

Please note that Islam and Christianity only came into picture 1,000 years ago. And even today, Hindus form over 80% of all Indians.

[edit] Shastras

  • Please see the articles and books on the shastras, which were the formative body of knowledge in India. People like Aryabhatta whom we appreciate as ancient Indian scholars all studied this body of work, and worked by it.

The shastras are not exempt from Hindu classical studies, which includes religion, and things like Dharmasastra, which is the Hindu law body.

[edit] In freedom struggle

[edit] Muslim suspicion of Congress

[edit] Hindu heroes

  • You simply have to click on the links for Shivaji and Maharana Pratap to understand how they are heroes in India. If the material is already covered in other Wikipedia articles, then there is no need to prove it here, apart from providing the said link.

[edit] Hindu nationalism stretching far back=

The book by Rajmohan Gandhi incorporates a lot of material that describes how a lot of Hindus viewed the rule of Muslim monarchs in the 19th century and the 20th century.

The book by Jonah Blank incorporates feelings of ordinary Hindus he interviewed on historical Muslim rule, the temple issue, etc.

Hindutva gives you the data on how Hindu nationalists view Indian history, Muslim involvement, etc.

You must view this in the context of Oppressor - Oppressed. Hindus hailed people like Shivaji as heroes becoz they prevented Muslim rulers from conquering their lands, assailing their religion and life with things like jaziya tax (a classic example), and destroying their institutions.

Again, a lot of it is modern perspective from modern accounts, but Shivaji and Maharana Pratap are stuff of legends passed down hundreds of years in Rajasthan and Maharashtra.

They are a stuff of pride stretching hundreds of years, and this pride feeds Hindu nationalism. That's the assertion here. If its not correctly written, I will re-write it.


[edit] Definition of Hindu nationalism

You make a point about the definition applying to all Hindus. It is a valid query, but this article does not try to discover if Hindu nationalism is followed by all Hindus, but asserts the fact that Hindu nationalism is a body of expression adopted by millions of Hindus - as is evidenced by the popularity and membership of BJP, RSS, VHP.

The POV of Tilak, Shivaji, Savarkar, Patel, Maharana Pratap etc. are widely hailed and influencing of Hindus in the politics of India.

While there are millions of secular, liberal Hindus - most of the Congress Party is Hindu - this expression of idea is clearly the nationalism of Hindu society.

The language is erroneous, which I will correct now, but the assertion is valid.

[edit] Process of Improvement

Let me assert that this article is in the process of a major expansion, in which I plan to add a lot of materials.

You are right that especially the first section Foundations is not written well. It contains contentious assertions becoz there is no space to discuss all of Indian history, which is full of contentious materials.

Assertions of Hindu nationalist thought must be pointed out as such, and not as a generally accepted fact. At the same time, what is fact should be left as fact.

I will strive to improve it. Over the next month, this article will undergo a major renovation and expansion.

Jai Sri Rama!

Rama's Arrow 16:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Personal Note

At this point, there have been thousands of debates across Wikipedia that degenerate in a frenzy of hot language and defiant assertions.

I would like to say right now that I respect your POV and your work, and I do not desire for this to happen here, for then we will get nowhere.

You have many good points, upon which I'm acting, but I've provided the reference and backing for the data I've put into the article. If you can bring in referenced material as well, it will help the article's growth.

Jai Sri Rama!

Rama's Arrow 17:04, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Corrections

Hi Doldrums,

I will make the necessary corrections and re-organize and expand the article better with Wikipedia conventions. However I strongly object to posting any signs except the Expansion one, because I stand by the material I've put in, which is basically referenced and accurately founded, even though there are mistakes and problems. Please understand that books are considered better sources than most others.

I hope you understand that I will be able to make the corrections/expansion after one week. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you.

Jai Sri Rama!

Rama's Arrow 15:28, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 'Plain English' is written & read faster

There are a few examples of needlessly complex language on this page. This encyclopedia is for everybody, not just the linguistic elite. 'Plain English' is language that the intended audience can understand and act upon from a single reading.

From www.plainenglish.co.uk

[edit] What 'plain English' is NOT

  • It's not 'cat sat on the mat' or 'Peter and Jane' writing. Almost anything - from leaflets and letters to legal documents - can be written in plain English without being patronising or over-simple.
  • It doesn't mean reducing the length or changing the meaning of your message. Most of the UK's biggest insurance companies produce policies that explain everything fully in plain English.
  • It's not about banning new words, killing off long words or promoting completely perfect grammar. Nor is it about letting grammar slip.
  • It is not an amateur's method of communication. Most forward-looking senior managers always write in plain English.
  • And finally, it is not as easy as we would like to think.

[edit] Plain-English translation

  • Before: High-quality learning environments are a necessary precondition for facilitation and enhancement of the ongoing learning process.
  • After: Children need good schools if they are to learn properly.

See also Wikipedia:Guide to writing.

Veej 22:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What this article needs

Can we present what this article needs to become a Good Article at the very least. It seems like there's a heap of potential for information. Please tell me what we want and I'll be happy to help. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:16, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] who is savitri devi

the savitri devi part in this text is irrelevant. and to be frank, unknown in india. i shall be removing it if i dont have opposition, nids 13:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I support it's removal. "Savitri Devi" (not her real name) was a French woman named Maximiani Portas who had some pretty whacky ideas about National Socialism and has little to do with current Hindutva ideology.Netaji
I think you should leave a link somewhere. It's interesting article even she is a bit whacked.--D-Boy 18:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edited

I've added a lot of references. A lot more need to be added. I'll take this up slowly. Much weasel words have been replaced. Many remain :) Lot of work to be done! --Babub→Talk 05:46, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where does this 10,000 figure come from?

Provide references that the death toll during the Babri Masjid riots was 10,000 or thereabouts or off it goes into the abyss.Netaji 08:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Swatantra party

Swatantra Party was never associated with Hindu nationalism. It was essentially a pre-capitalist offshoot of INC. Minoo Masani, a Parsi, was the main leader of Swatantra Party after Rajaji.--Vikramsingh 17:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

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