Talk:High Yield Investment Program

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yeah, but the article is pretty ok..

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[edit] A Critical Review of this article

This article is poorly written. Reasons:

(1) Does not cite any reference. "No HYIP has, as yet, survived for very long without turning out to be a scam." - I know it's obvious fact. Any proof to back this? - Some programs listed on Goldpoll last longer than one year, how do you explain?

(2) Incomplete info. "HYIPs are frequently advertised in spam emails, forums or mailing lists, since people are typically given a commission (for example, 9% of invested funds) when they provide a referral of a new customer." - A special type of website called HYIP monitoring/rating/listing website provides the best advertising for HYIPS. They are the shills and cheerleaders. Open a new section.

(3) Some are speculations. "HYIPs typically are not based in the United States, Europe, or Japan - countries that have strong laws against unregistered investment programs." - How do you conclude this? How do you find out where a scammer reside? Facts: some big scams happened in US and Europe, e.g. 12 daily pro, plexpay.

(4) Missing important info. I read the article but could not answer these: How dangerous is hyip? (Give a documentation of an exposed and probed scam) How serious is the problem? (Give statistics. How many people, how much money were scammed?) What are the legal authorities in this field? (SEC, FTC, etc)


[edit] Legitimate HYIPs?

ummm... Can someone tell me what makes a legit HYIP scheme? This article doesn't tell that. It just tells how to recognize a scam HYIP. How would a legit HYIP scheme be able to legitimally make payouts? --Dan 06:49, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Investing in forex might work if you only pay out 1% a day (no compound interest) or something. Also, you could invest your depositors' money in OTHER scams, and just say you didn't know they were scams when the FBI comes. 218.103.137.181 11:36, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd say 3 of 2 legit HYIP schemes are all about scalping_(disambiguation) sucker waves. If you do lot's of 1-2 second investment at about 1/4 of a LOT you can greatly minimize any possible loss from declining sucker waves. -- Picketf 06:53, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
1% daily interest, not compounded, and 1% compounded daily interest really aren't that different in real life - they're both complete unrealistic (traders of foreign exchange end up losing money as often as they end up gaining on a trade) and unsustainable. And as far as investing money in other scams, there is the delicate matter of timing - you want to get in and get out before the scam collapses, which realistically can hardly be guaranteed to happen. Moreover, you have to get out successfully MOST of the time, since when a scam collapses you lose the entire amount (100%) you invested. John Broughton 00:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Investing in loan and mortgage and for long term investments also real estate can sometimes be very lucrative. Specially if it's handpicked private loan firms that help other institution in debt consolidation (e.g. when they're near bankrupt) these can charge unreal interest rates. Whether these firms operate 100% legal is highly arguable though. -- Picketf 11:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for posting to the discussion page rather than the article page.
Whenever someone points to a business that "can charge unreal interest rates", the best question to ask is "If the return is so good, why aren't a lot of other companies in the same business?" (Suppose someone claimed that you could earn very high profits from selling ice cream cones from a street cart. If that were true, why wouldn't sidewalks be full of ice cream vendors?) John Broughton 16:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Same reason why HYIPs are just what they are. No serious trader invests long term in HYIP because as the model might work short term (in my example a few companies went broke and with online money they get financed at a point no other bank would have lent them money and thus are required to pay a lot more than usual) it is almost certain that such a cenario can not be held up for a longer period of time. Another cenario for HYIP would rent profits for future bird flu vascination developement. There's a good chance the investment yields very high earnings provided the company really is first in developement. The risk though is high and in most cases cannot be evaluated since most investment programs are not disclosed.
So to answer your question why not many investors care about HYIPs = 1. the risk factor 2. not being able to monitor investment options 3. long term investments are close to impossible. -- Picketf 02:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Another way to achieve high earnings is investing in currency exchange. A typcial conservative scenario would be 3 to 5 percent per transaction. Assume the lower of percent per transaction and say only 5 exchanges a day. This is very doable for a legitimate exchange merchant and would bring in 15 percent per day gross. -- Picketf 12:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
That's really a bogus example - do you believe what you're saying? You're basically saying that the currency exchange (location?) uses 100% of their money in the first exchange (say, changing dollars to euros), uses 100% in the second exchange (euros back to dollars? euros to pounds?), 100% in the third exchange, etc. What's more realistic is that an exchange location has (say) $10,000 on hand, and each transaction is for $400 or so. The profit on each $400 transaction (at 5%) is $20. So five transactions means a profit of $100. That represents a 1% gross profit for the day. But, of course, there is the cost of paying the staff, the rent on the location, the insurance for the location, taxes, etc. (In short, currency exchange is a business, like any other business.)
Exchange on buy rates that is. Sorry for lack of explaination. When you buy anything in foreign currency you'd be charged around 4% exchange rate to compensate inflation (more so if it's loan pay). That's mostly why very expensive merchandise is bought in 2 currencies to minimize exchange rate loss charged by seller. -- Picketf 02:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is another real life example for you the live mid-market rates as of 2006.04.18 08:38:02 UTC for Brazilian Real to Swiss Francs is 1 CHF = 1.66392 BRL & 1 BRL = 0.600990 CHF. I called United Banks of Switzerland (UBS) and they told me their rate to buy BRL was 0.6700. That is a pratical increase of 11% I called the Migros Bank of Switzerland and they confirmed that their rate is 0.6700. Imagine now an agency in Brazil operated by 1 person whose salary is set at 300 BRL (140.- USD) monthly changing cash at these rates. (registering only about 1/4 of the exchanges for tax fraud) There you have your example.
And, of course, as interesting as all this is, it has nothing to do with HYIPs, which claim to make very high profits by currency trading (not exchange) or other esoteric (and therefore not explained, or even really explainable) "strategies". John Broughton 16:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
What are we waiting for? Start a currently exchange HYIP today!218.103.137.41 15:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cites for "Interest Rates" section

In response to Monkeyman's deletion of this section, with the edit summary Interest Rate - Unsourced. Please site if readding., I went to google.com and checked the results of searching on "high yield investment programs". In fact, the rate cited (.4% per day) was too LOW, based on the first five links I found that listed a variety of HYIPs. Those sites are as follows (please note that I am NOT providing these as links; I do NOT in any way recommend that anyone go to these sites except to verify my posting here): hyiptracer.com/programs.php hyip.reb usnet.biz/ hyipa dmin.com/all_programs.php www.newbieh angout.com/hyip/ www.dailyins tantpay.net/

I've added the section back, modified to indicate what I found. I do note that I'm a bit puzzled by Monkeyman's deletion - does he really think that the norm is LESS than one percent per day? John Broughton 05:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

The information your present is fine but you need to source the information. That is why I removed it. Wikipedia:Cite_sources#How_to_cite_sources Image:Monkeyman.pngMonkeyman(talk) 13:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Apologies if I seemed to be making unsubstantiated statements; researching the section did result in an improved version, I think. And thanks for policing the spam links on this article, which is obviously a magnet for unacceptable behaviour. John Broughton 17:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Monkeyman - let me see if I can better understand your putting the "citation needed" label for the statement that "HYIPs typically offer an interest rate of 1% or more per day on invested funds"? Would the five URLs that I listed above be adequate "sources" if I stuck them in the article - would having those five URLs be enough to justify removing the label? And if not, why not? John Broughton 17:10, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
John, The problem I have with this statement is that the interest rate might be 1% for the first few months of the HYIP. What happens after everyone starts pulling out? Can we also quote somewhere that the interest rates can be -20% per day in some cases? It is my opinion that the companies/people quoting these incredible rates are doing so in order to get exposure for their site. But to address your question, i think one source from a more reputable site would be enough. We just need to know who is saying this stuff. Image:Monkeyman.pngMonkeyman(talk) 17:18, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
My guess is that when everyone starts pulling out, a program goes bust, as is the case with all ponzi schemes. As far as the interest rate being -20%, I don't think that can actually be the case (though I've never put money into a HYIP). Isn't the 1% a sort of CONTRACT?
I'm perfectly willing to say "claim to offer an initial rate of 1% per day, which, if sustained, would be ... " or something similar. The problem here, I'm beginning to think, is that common sense - looking at a bunch of different sites - supports the sentence I'm trying to write, but that there may not be a newsarticle or SEC release that says exact that. (By way of analogy, consider a sentence like "The sun rose in the east 365 out of 365 days last year." That's true, but it may be hard to find an article that says exactly that.) John Broughton 21:08, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I also agree with this wording. I've changed the "Interest" section to reflect these changes. Feel free to add/remove anything I've missed. Thanks for your work on this article. Image:Monkeyman.pngMonkeyman(talk) 21:30, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
The point is that you can't really have a source for 200% a day without being classed as advertising. Anyway the programs die so quickly that links would have to be changed daily.

[edit] fraudaid

Sorry, I had to removed the fraudaid link. This is a commercial site offering "Professional Services" for a fee. Any information in that link should be included directly into the article rather than simply linking to it. May I also ask, are you affiliated with this site in any way? Image:Monkeyman.pngMonkeyman(talk) 17:14, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, it wasn't that useful a site in terms of original arguments. I was just trying to add additional links so that readers would get a sense sense that there are substantial arguments against HYIPs. And no, I'm not affiliated with this site in any way - it was just among the top twenty or so google results (with virtually all the rest being pro-HYIP). John Broughton 20:57, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea where you get that impression: Fraudaid is a commerical site? Just because there is a link to a commercial service makes you omit the majority of helpful, free info on the website? Fraudaid is one of the best websites that tells you what to do after you are scammed. It contains both original material and links to other websites, and they can't put them all in one page. Or do you think only completely free website may be added? I don't think SEC and Canadian Police are free, the taxpayers pay them.

[edit] cattyshaq

Would it be acceptable to include a link to www.catt yshaq.com? I'd rather not add it until someone impartial thinks that it would be a useful resource. 194.72.35.70 11:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

It's a forum so I don't think it belongs here. Any content they have should be included in the Wikipedia article (as long as it meets Wikipedia:Copyrights). Image:Monkeyman.pngMonkeyman(talk) 13:33, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
It's not acceptable to link to a forum unless it's somehow both unique and authoritative. I've not looked at catt yshaq. com, but I imagine that there are tons of discussions of HYIPs out there. But if you find some useful insights, or pointers to useful things (like attorney general takedowns of specific HYIPs, on the forum, by all means add those to the article - just don't link to the forum. (A forum isn't really a source - it's more like "he said, she said"; you want something - like a link to an official document - that stands on its own, regardless of where you might have found it.)
Thanks for asking, by the way. Good question. John Broughton 17:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Deleted text - May 2006

I'm not going to get into an argument (with an anonymous IP poster with a total of one edit - 128.163.112.205) about whether the following (deleted text) meets wikipedia's requirements for verifiable (and authoritative) sourced information. But I think the information is useful, so I'm posting it here with an invitation for someone else to add it back but with better sources. John Broughton 18:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

The largest hyip scam that ever existed is PIPS (People in Profit System or Pure Investors)[1]. The investment scheme was started by an engineer Bryan Marsden in 2003 and spanned more than 20 countries in the world. PIPS is now being investigated by Bank Negara Malaysia [2]
According to a website HYIP Scam Search that maintains a comprehensive database of HYIP scams daily, as at May of 2006, the total number of HYIP scams was approximately 3500. This is the total number of scams occurred from 2004 to 2006 and excluding scams not reported. About 5 new scams are reported every day. 89% of the scams preferred e-gold as their online payment processors than others [3]
It's me who put them up. So let me wait for a month. I think the information is truthful. if no one is able to give a better source that provides more accurate information, I will put them up again. 04:43, 6 June 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.74.93.155 (talk • contribs).
No opinion? 02:15, 23 June 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.74.92.241 (talk • contribs).
Why don't you go ahead and put it back. Add this link for PIPS: [4] Add this provides updated info: [5] It would be good if you updated your text. John Broughton 20:47, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I removed PlexPay Network from the "successfully indicted" list, because the company have never been indicted. The former president, Frode Jørgensen, was indicted for embezzlement and fraud, but the charges have been reduced to "breach of the lottery law". The prosecutor's office have yet to produce evidence that there were no investements made. The norwegian police have apparently killed off a legal corporation in growth, and I'm eagerly awaiting the following lawsuits :)

Too bad the Norwegian Police are so incompetent, PlexPay may be legal, but offering / soliciting investments on the internet may be illegal. Just get a number of unpaid investors to testify, that should work out. 165.21.155.9 08:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] addition by IP 70.18.219.135

Under US law these "games" would be considered illegal lotteries, since one cannot know whether one is playing early enough to win money.

But in a lottery, you have an equal chance of winning no matter when you buy your ticket. So "lottery" is not the right word.. perhaps "gambling"? What do people such as John Broughton (I suspect you watch this page) think? 203.218.88.254 10:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

hyip "games" do have some similarities with lotteries. Both pay a small number of lucky persons money pooled by a large number of losers.

[edit] about the website HYIP Scam Search http://www.stochasticsoccer.com/kakarukeys/

Some have tried to spam by changing the link. They might question why I added the site instead of theirs. [6] is non-hardline information portal for hyip investors maintained by Sirius Clan, an organization who fights hyip scams. I find their reasearch interesting: [7]. The website does not promote any hyip program (you will find they actually denounce it if you explore further). The website is non-profit (except Google adsense which probably is used to cover hosting cost). HYIP monitors promote and advertise hyip programs for referral commissions. In fact some of them do cheerleading for them. They are helpers for many ponzi schemes. 16:07, 27 July 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.21.155.12 (talk • contribs).

I've looked at the site, and I agree that it is about the best that can be hoped for, for reliable information. John Broughton 16:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] recent addition by 71.10.0.58 aka GERALDmsu

This guy is promoting his own site (claiming to be an internet PI) and his yahoo group which has one member (himself) and bascially no activity for the past year. I removed the link but he put it back. Third party opinion? 203.218.87.69 05:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

You're right. I've done a revert. John Broughton 13:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
THE VICTIMS GROUP HAS BEEN CLOSED TILL 8.18.06, JUST OPENED, WAITING FOR INVESTIGATION TO START. AUSTRALIA ALSO INVESTIGATIGATING. INTERESTING: I POST A SITE TO HELP VICTIMS AND INVESTIGATORS, (PHOTOS, AND, THE BIGGER LIST OF VICTIMS THE BETTER FOR PROSECUTION ) AND YOU ACCUSE ME OF PROMOTING MY SITE? WERE WORKING PRO BONO, AND ALREADY HAVE A LARGE ARCHIVE. WHOM ARE YOU? 21:39, 20 August 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GERALDmsu (talk • contribs).}
Show us the website. We can see. 16:24, 23 August —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2006 165.21.155.17 (talk • contribs).

!!! FOLLOW THE LINK everything is there, he has been arreszted, see photo, links in yahoo group.Gerald!!!

[edit] HYIP Justice

There's no way to add this URL to the first entry in HYIP Justice factfindings dot tekcities dot com Wiki says it's spam. I put hyip scam search there temporarily.

Can someone do something about it? 16:24, 23 August 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.21.155.17 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Removing reference links to unreliable sources

The stochasticsoccer website is clearly not a reliable source, it's someone's personal website, and worse, it is profitting off the hyip scams by providing links to them. This is actually common in the HYIP scam world, there are many sites out there which claim to be offering help, which offer the message, "99% of the hyips are scams, here's how to avoid the scams and find the good ones", when in fact there are no good ones, they are all scams. The very existence of hyip scam databases is part of the scam, as it implies that one can check a HYIP program to see if it's in the database and that this will help avoid being scammed. When of course the very fact that it's a HYIP means that it is automatically a scam. --Xyzzyplugh 00:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

While what you said has merit, it is incorrect. I'll let the website owner defend himself though. Urban dictionary should be removed, of course, but I'm restoring the other two. 129.31.72.52 09:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
In what way is what I said incorrect? The stochasticsoccer page says, at the top of the page, "This website lets you check if an HYIP is a scam. Part of your HYIP due diligence". As all HYIP's are scams, this is clearly falsely implying that some are not. And note the following policy page: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Self-published_sources. This is a personal webpage, and therefore not a reliable source, and the other link you restored was to a message board posting, even a less reliable source, especially given that it is a message board devoted to these HYIP scams. --Xyzzyplugh 15:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
After looking a bit at the message board, it's so infested with scams, clearly supported by those running the message board, that I'm going to revert the last edit to the article to remove both those links immediately. I don't want to get into an edit war, but these scam links don't belong here. --Xyzzyplugh 15:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
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