Talk:High German consonant shift
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Shouldn't this page be merged with Second Germanic sound shift? Maartenvdbent 20:46, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Done. --Doric Loon 12:37, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Isogloss movement in the last 15 years
Since German reunification, a northward movement of the eastern end of the Benrath line has been observed.
Ah. It was in the article on the Benrath line and from there I followed it back to a reference in the German Wiki. I meant to check it further but haven't done so yet. I decided to mention it because it really is interesting, but I did have some reservations. Is your instinct to delete it? --Doric Loon 20:42, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Symbols in Phase 1
Angr, the symbol you have put in for the ae-ligature with a lengethening sign appears on my screen as a box. We had this before on another page and you found a way to fix it. Any chance you can do your magic here too? --Doric Loon 20:46, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I added the {{Unicode}} template around them. Does it work right for you now? (If not, why not switch to a real browser like Netscape, Mozilla, or Opera?) --Angr/tɔk tə mi 21:44, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yup, that's fixed it. Good stuff! --Doric Loon 22:56, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] dates of the shift
i wonder how general the agreement on the given dates is. the text as written implies that there must necessarily have been a long period between each of the stages, as otherwise sounds would have merged. but this is not necessarily true; multi-level chain shifts can happen over a very short period of time (e.g. the great vowel shift is four levels, < 150 years), and there is no need for one shift to "stop" before the other "starts". there are various modern cases where multi-level shifts occur simultaneously and move from dialect to dialect as a unit. the late date of the fourth shift appears well documented, but it's possible the other three occurred nearly simultaneously but took a long time to spread; this is what is implied in Waterman "A History of the German Language". Benwing 05:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that Waterman is the best source, but of course it is possible that phases 2, 3 and 4 could have occurred fairly rapidly. The text as written does not imply anything else. It does say we have to allow for the possibility that some phases MAY have lasted longer, but the dates given in the table place phases 2, 3 and 4 at least partly in the 8th century. I think the text as written also gives due attention to the fact that the dates are tentative. If you want to write more on the mechanisms in general, that might be good, but the place to do it is in the article chain shift.--Doric Loon 09:56, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
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- Waterman actually believes that phase 1,2,3 were close together and phase 4 much later and perhaps should not really be considered part of the shift at all; there is some logic to this, since phase 1,2,3 affect successively smaller regions whereas phase 4 affects everywhere, including places not affected by phase 1, and affects only a single series, whereas the other affect (to some degree) all three of p/t/k. Benwing 01:32, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
- Well of course the article already notes that not everyone groups phase 4 under this heading, for precisely these reasons. But it is better covered here than in an article of its own. I think it goes beyond the scope of this article to list all the details of every dating theory, so I would not be inclined to add much at the moment. Better to give one plausible set of dates and be content with the warning that these are tentative. But a sentence at the bottom of the chronology section to say that "an alternative view will be found in Waterman" might be quite useful. --Doric Loon 09:31, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
- OK, I went ahead and did that. Perhaps you could add a page number, and put full details of Waterman at the bottom of the page?--Doric Loon 09:44, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Lombardic
DAB, do you have more information on that Lombardic reference? For example, which of the four phases you are talking about? Or a reference? I suspect that doesn't belong under chronology, but you can tell us more, perhaps. --Doric Loon 13:00, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Notation of the overview table
We presently have the sound shifts described in the Latin alphabet, which is fine, except that if you're not already familiar with German orthography the "ch" in kch might be confused with other sounds, and even if you are familiar with German, the hh is not particularly clear. I'm tempted to replace them with IPA, possibly with links to the relevant sounds (something like this: þ), but not speaking German of any variety I'm reluctant for fear of stuffing it up. Moreover, IPA might not be the best option here, but things do need to be better explained. What do people think? J.K. 12:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
- (I've been just a reader of the article.) The usage of some traditional Latin notations looks fine to me, but I would put some short description on the correspondence of the used notation to sounds in front of the table where it is used. The description could consist of notes like this one:
- from High German consonant shift#Phase 1 (so, I'd move it up). (And here it is obvious that IPA is not a suitable alternative here, since the exact features of the sounds are not known.--Imz 19:41, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] GA nomination failed
It failed on account of poor referencing or no inline citations. Lincher 23:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- what do we need {{GA}} for if by now GAs essentially require {{FA}} qualities? Also, no review or nomination is linked, you simply removed the tag. I haven't contributed to this article, and I think it easily qualifies as "good". Hence, I will re-add the template, until some formal "review" or whatever is required in GA bureaucracy these days is undertaken. dab (ᛏ) 20:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Tag bad example
I'm not a linguist, but maybe the example of the third shift is not the best one, since Dutch also shifts for this example. (but probably not on the whole)
80.127.115.114 11:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- Don't unerstand, all the examples of phase three of the shift show Dutch unaffected. Phase four, on the other hand, does affect Dutch. The examples seem fine to me, but do come back on that and say which example is bothering your. --Doric Loon 12:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] rfc
comments are welcome at Talk:History of German: should the article's scope extend to Low German, or is the history of German the history of the 2nd sound shift? Also, how should the ToC ideally be arranged? High and Low in separate h2 sections, or Early and High Middle Ages in separate h2 sections? dab (ᛏ) 20:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Would a discussion of the relationship to the Ingvaenoic shift make these matters clearer?
- I think not. By all means add links. But this is a detailed article on one particular phenomenon. It has too much detail for a general history of the German language article, and will only be cluttered by having bits of other things merged. I think we need a good general overview article on historical German philology, linking to deep but narrow articles on particularly influential or complex events. This article is the latter. --Doric Loon 12:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
