Talk:Herschel Grynszpan
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Talk:Herschel Grynszpan/Archive 1
I have now rewritten the article, so all this old and mostly rather silly Talk can be archived. Adam 15:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Speaking of silly talk..in the revised article there is the very silly sentence:"Furthermore, Grynszpan was an Orthodox Jew from a sheltered background, and the idea that he could also have been gay, or even willing to engage in homosexual sex to curry favour with a Nazi official, seems on the face of it improbable." Grynszpan's background was not sheltered. He was quite street-wise. His religious upbringing is altogether irrelevant. oldcitycat 05:40, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Question: If the photos of Grynszpan which have been used at this article are in the public domain, are all the other photos from the period in Schwab's book also public domain? If so I will upload some of them, but I won't bother if they are just going to be deleted. Adam 15:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
- The copyright of German photos from the Nazi era was confusingly interpreted as public domain at some point in wikipedia history, that's not the case now {{PD-Germany}}. So unless you know that the photographer has been dead for 70 years - then it's probably not worth the effort - the article is pretty well illustrated with images of dubious copyright status anyway.--Peta 03:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
These are French photos, not German ones. Who knows what French copyright law was in the 1930s? (Also, could someone confirm that French law in the 1930s allowed minors to be executed? I thought it was only barbaric places like Texas that did such things, not civilised countries. But Schwab's book is adamant that Grynszpan faced the guillotine if convicted.) Adam 05:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
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- Under French copyright law, it's 70 years after the death of the author too. As for capital punishment - they had it as late as 77 - and cut peoples heads off in public til 39, its not inconcievable that they punished minors in that way too. Google isn't very helpful in confirming this though.--Peta 11:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] any relation to Alan Greenspan?
can someone answer? just curious.
It's a common German-Jewish name. Adam 07:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Comment from Hoovers Institute Archive on Grynszpan
A friend at the Hoovers Institute expert in WWII-era Poland provides the following details based on his look into archived documents:
'Dear Michael,
I found time to search more for materials on Grynszpan. I hoped to find some reference to 1938 events in the papers of the Polish Consulate in Lille, which was heavily infiltrated with the Polish security agents who spied on socialists and communists recruited to fight in the Spanish civil war. There is quite a lot about Jewish political groups but nothing on the subject we are interested in.
Next collection I looked at, was the Polish Embassy in Paris. Surprisingly the year 1938 is not well represented there. For some reason documents from that year were withdrawn or lost. There is however exchange of correspondence (2 telegrams) between Polish ambassadors to Germany and France on November 8-9 in which they tried to confirm Grynszpan's identity.
Ambassador Lipski - from Berlin asked Lukasiewicz in Paris to confirm Grynszpan's place and date of birth and how long he resided in Germany.
Lukasiewicz writes from Paris on November 9:
"Herszel Ferbel Grynszpan born in Hannover March 28, 1921, received Polish passport on August 7, 1937 for the period of 6 months. Passport was issued after the following documents were submitted:
a/ "declaration de perte from May 14, 1937 of the passport issued by the Consulate in Hamburg (most likely G. arrived illegally)" (ZS: since the telegram was sent on November 9, 1938, they suggest that Grynszpan wasn't allowed to travel on it after 6 months)
b/ birth certificate
c/ confirmation of his fathers citizenship received from Radomsko (ZS: a town in central Poland)
"Passport doesn't have any additional annotations and it wasn't extended".
That's all there is. Not much but it confirms that what we already knew. let me know if it makes sense. I can send you a copy of these two documents which are in Polish.
Al the best,
Zbyszek
PS. After Poland regained it's independence in 1918 people who were born before that date on what was earlier Austria and Prussia could apply for Polish citizenship. Consuls from different parts of Europe complained that they were forced to issue documents based on poor evidence. It all got much, much more complicated after the anschluss of Austria when hundreds of thousands of those with birth certificates issued by Catholic parishes (the only source then for both Christians and Jews) showed up on the steps of Polish diplomatic representations. Many of them traveled across Europe looking for a place to settle down. But that is another story. Mikewelch7 16:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Big Re-writes and Cuts
Those who don't care to check their sources carefully are willing to accept a picture of events that was never verified. Schwab indicates this but for some reason this is not accepted by the Wikipedia article writer.Vom Rath was 29 years old, not 28 and he was good at his work. The rumors mentioned were spread by the French shortly after vom Rath was shot. There was never any proof of treatment for rectal gonorrhoea.oldcitycat 07:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC) BTW Gide was hardly a reliable source. It's surprising that this has been ignored here. oldcitycat 04:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I am of a view that its all conjecture anyway. Orthadox kids do go gay, and high ranking NAZIs were gay. Herschel is an enigma and if we are going to start making cuts on the basis of mistrust of other historians, we can cut it down to two paragraphs, maybe three. Mike33 04:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
what are you talking about? i didn't cut anything - i restored that paragraph, which i origibally wrote, to its correct version after some other person rendered it both false and ungrammatical. Adam 05:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC) You had best check your notes on your sources (Schwab..whatever) because you do not appear to have understood Schwab at all. oldcitycat 07:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)06:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- Mmmmmmm.... I just gave you a mea culpa on your talk page. I do hope that if i could find sources for the rubbish that guy expressed (there are plenty of nazi apologists who write million selling books), that it wouldn't be able to sit alongside? Herschel was no saint and made his living as best he could. Whether that was as a rent boy or an international agent for the jewish congress or just a kid finding a bite to eat we will never really know. Conjecture is just that. Mike33 06:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. There is no evidence at all that he was a rent boy, and the origins of the "gay defence" are gone into thoroughly by Schwab in his book, which I suggest you read. Nor is there any evidence that he was acting for anyone else. If there was any truth in either conjecture evidence would have emerged by now. The truth is almost certainly the most obvious: that he acted alone, on impulse, and in order to avenge his family and German Jews in general. I have tied this article very closely to the available sources and it contains no conjecture. Adam 06:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC) You have used very few available sources and your article contains a lot of conjecture.oldcitycat 04:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The two of you seem to be arguing in a world of your own. Any reason neither of you has bothered to read Andy Marino's book? What exactly is this supposed to mean..":Mmmmmmm.... I just gave you a mea culpa on your talk page. I do hope that if i could find sources for the rubbish that guy expressed (there are plenty of nazi apologists who write million selling ..." I would hope you mean Doescher..or various examples of Nazi propaganda about Jewish conspiracies but it's certainly not clear. oldcitycat 07:16, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Obviously WIKIPEDIA is not up to the task of dealing with complex murder cases. oldcitycat 04:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I am very dissatisfied with the way the Grynszpan article has been handled and I intend to complain about it. The sources used are too limited and it is obvious that incompetent people are in charge.oldcitycat 01:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Death?
"He was probably executed some time in 1944 or 1945."
Is this a reasonable assumption? There is no evidence of what happened to him. Another assumption is that he was killed in Allied bombing. The city ranks second, behind Dresden, as the most bombed city by Allied bombers. Also, he could have been taken by the Soviets and sent to a Gulag. Lots of possibilities. Maybe that line should be removed. Thoughts? Jtpaladin 01:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
It is says "probably," and that is accurate. The two scenarios you mention are possible, but the most likely fate of a high-profile political prisoner and a Jew is that he was executed, as were many other political prisoners, in the last months of the war. The article should not engage in speculation about remote possibilities. Adam 02:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Vandalism
Oldcitycat, posting your opinions and comments into the article itself is vandalism. If you do it again I will ask to have you blocked. Adam 03:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
You're not the only one who can complain. You are the vandal.oldcitycat 03:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I think we have been very patient with your long history of silly, irrelevant and often incomprehensible edits to this article. If you do it again, I will ask to have you blocked, and you probably will be. Adam 06:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The problem here is you, Mr. Carr. In fact..one of the things wrong with Wikipedia is your display of control over the content of this article.oldcitycat 06:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
