Talk:Herod the Great

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[edit] Dates/Dating

The fact that Luke indicates a census in 6 C.E. from 'Cyrenius' who was actually Publius Sulpicius Quirinius and that he says it was the first is in disagreement with Matthew who says that Jesus was born when Herod the Great was alive (he died in 4 B.C.E.). So dating his birth is an adventure indeed if we only use the synoptic gospels to help us. Many dedicated bible interpreters invent another census but this conflicts with Luke who calls it the first and it conflicts with history - there was, as far as we know, only one. So this entire page is quite controversial in its use of 4 B.C.E. for the date.

It seems that many who push for a later eclipse are motivated to prove Luke 2:2 correct, which says (in most translations) 'This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria.' Now, scholars debate whether L. Calpurnius Piso (probably) was governor during 3-1 BC or whether (as Sherwin-White suggested) Quirinius may have had a previous governorship. The record is unclear, but the governor then was most likely Piso, and most historians agree with this. (Disclosure: I am a christian who believes that Luke 2:2 must be accurate, somehow. Yet, I believe Piso was the governor from 3-1 BC.) In short, many seem to feel that a later eclipse will allow them to take Sherwin-White's suggestion and replace Piso with Quirinius, convieniently. However, F.F. Bruce and H.W. Hoehner both stand with a different solution to the Quirinius controversy, which was first suggested in the 1600's, which says that Luke 2:2 has been mistranslated! That it should say "This happened before Quirinius was governor of Syria." This is plausible, because Luke said Jesus' birth was in the days of Herod, and when he says the word "census" he has a need to distinguish this census (probably of Saturninus, governor of Syria from 9 to 6 BC, whose census Tertullian mentions) from the more famous (at that time) census of Quirinius, which was managed by the procurator Cummanus, in the year that Archelaus was deposed (6 AD). Herobill 21:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

In brief, my point is simply this - if the Piso/Quirinius question (as to which governed Syria from 3 to 1 BC) could be settled more firmly, then I believe there would be less controversy and debate over which lunar eclipse predates the death of Herod. Secular historians tend to go with 4 BC, and christians trying to defend Luke 2:2 sometimes try the later dates; but Bruce and Hoehner's defense of Luke is better, and more plausible.Herobill 21:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

(For further study of Quirinius and Piso, see Levick, Roman Colonies in Southern Asia Minor (1967), Appendix V, about the Homanadensian War. In it, she hilights well how Mommsen and Ramsay made the same attempt as Sherwin-White by using an inscription about an unnamed governor of Syria - that was either Piso or Quirinius; but Piso seems the more likely.) See also F.F. Bruce, New Testament History, 1969 and H.W. Hoehner, Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ, 1973. Herobill 21:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

(Previous talk was made on 06:49, 2004 Feb 26 . . by 66.42.54.47) (Following is by me, User:Wikibob)

True, it's been hashed over at great length. The Wikipedia policy that has been established is that neither dating terminology is to be preferred; rather that an article follows the system used by the first editor who wrote the article. Thus, in this article, the correct notation is B.C., because that is the form used by the first author. No need for more contentious debate. 'Nuff said! Pollinator 01:49, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I believe most historians take Jesus' birth to be in fact 4 B.C.E., in any case I intend to substantially improve this page with these notes taken from a recent BBC documentary. There's some uncertaintity so to keep NPOV I'll use "Historians say..." and try to reference the actual historians and archealogists.

At last I've finished the article on Herod, so I'll remove from this Talk the material that is now there. I'll just leave the notes on the documentary. The article still needs cleanup and an improved writing style.-Wikibob 02:30, 2004 Mar 15 (UTC)

Notes from the BBC Manchester/Discovery channel production on Herod.

[edit] Herod's early years

Herod's mother was an Arab princess from Petra, Jordan, and his father Antipater the Idumaean, the family rubbed shoulders with the greats in Rome, Pompey, Cassius, etc.

Herod and his family quickly rose in stature and in 47 BCE his father was appointed governor over Judea, and himself at 25 was appointed governor of Galilee, in the same year he married a woman named Doris.

But after return from a campaign he was offered the betrothal to a teenage Jewish princess named Mariame from a well-regarded Jewish royal family. He then banished Doris and her 3 year old son and married Mariame.

5 years later Romans named Herod King of the Jews.

^{[citation needed]}

Tomer ^TALK 20:00, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Herod's architectural palaces and fortresses

South of Bethlehem lies an architectural complex designed by Herod, named Herodian, a desert Palace.

According to historian Professor Jodi Magness, the Herodian Palace complex at the top of the mountain included a large swimming pool supplied by aquaduct. Herodian has been researched in the last 30 years, and contained royal appartments, guestrooms, arcades, and could entertain his entire court numbering in the hundreds. 40 miles to the South, on the Dead Sea, lies the palace and fortress of Massada, 1000 feet above the desert floor. The fortress is 3 stories high, and according to researchers completely conceived and designed by Herod. Large store rooms for food, secure water supply, arsenal of weapons. Soldiers were stationed at the fortress whoe even after Herod's death continued to garrison there. Steep sides allowed the use of huge rolling stones (still present) to defend against attackers.

H built 20 fortresses across the kingdom, signalling between them via mirrors. Historians, archeologists suggest H was fearful of a threat to his power.

Ref: Prof Warren Carter, on psalms about David coming to Jerusalem, that Herodas (gr.father of H) was a 3rd gen. jew, but that H. had no J. blood, hence why H. married M.

Prof Jodi: H fear of uprising.

Evidence H worked to garner public approval. Western wall of Jerusalem is remnant of huge building masterminded by H., the Temple of Jersusalem.

Hailed by many at time as most beautiful in world. 18,000 workers employed on temple, more money than any other building in Judea. Prof Warren carter: said that it only rained at night, so as not to hinder work. Important not to defile buliding during the word, so H had priests that knew about masonry etc.

[edit] Why many despised Herod

But many still despised H. Why? H appointed by an occupying power the Romans, and H pandered to Romans.

60 miles NW of Jerusalem, the jewel of the Mediterranean. A seaport, with aqueduct supplying fresh water is the best preserved.

Ooops, H named it Caesaria, an insult to the Jews. Filled it with decadant and immoral stuff. Then H built temple to a Roman God, the Emperor, and built the harbour from Jewish taxes. Harbour was sophisticated engineering, scale is being revealed by underwater archeaology. Used a then new bulding technique, floating wooden boxes sunk in a line, and filled with concrete which set in the water.

H at 38 years. appointed his 17 year old brother-in-law as ??, but H worried that the Jews would appoint Aristobulas (sp?) as a full king of jews. Ar was drowned at a party, but not sufficient evidence.

5 years later Octavian defeated Mark Antony, so H switched allegiance to O. O confirmed H as KOTJ.

[edit] Herod executes his wife Mariame

Josephus writes of passion between H and M. M learns of H plans to murder M. M stops sleeping with H. H put M on trial on trumped up charge of adultery, his sister Salome (not Herodias' daughter Salome) was chief witness. M. mother made appearance and incriminated her own daughter. Historians say M's mother was next on H's hitlist and did this to save her own life. 25 years old and birthed 5 children in 7 years. Writings state that M was calm and serene at her execution.

Historians claim this determined H's fate, others claim H was remorseful after M's death, and grieved and wandered palace believing he saw M alive.

H was ill, behaviour erratic, reports of heavy drinking. H's enemies sensed he'd lost his grip on counrtry, was serious attempt to seize power from him.

[edit] Mariame's mother declares herself Queen

M's mother made bid for power, declared herself Queen as H not mentally fit. Josephus wrote: M's mother made strategic mistake and H executed her without trial.

[edit] Herod executes his two plotting sons

H at 65 years, H heard his 2 sons were plotting to assasinate him. Historian says H was unhinged. H executed his 2 sons.

[edit] 4 B.C.E. woman called Mary gave birth to child named Jesus

In the same year at Bethlehem, a woman called Mary gave birth to child named Jesus.

When wise men arrived at H's court it's supposed they knew H had killed M, M's mother, his 2 sons, etc., and were on guard.

Why massacre only in gospel of Matthew? Story is absent from all other sources. Scholars claim there was no massacre in Bethlehem, and the stories got confused from 2 separate accounts.

Historian: from H killing 2 sons got transferred to the murder of many children. HistAnother : possibly massacre did occur but historian Josephus intentionally left it out. Greek orthodox claims 14,000 boys, others 64,000, yet others 140,000.

Another Historian looked at original Greek of Mathews gospel, word for massacre is anarelel (this is best-effort phonetic, need original greek here) not a translation of massacre. Greek word can be used for killing of just one.

For the sake of good record, Grk Mt 2:16 has ανειλεν, 3rd pers. sing. aor. ind. act. (no divergent readings in Nestle 26th) of αναιρεω, from ανα & αιρεω, properly: to take up, lift (e.g. from the ground); but also: to take off, to put to death, to kill, to murder. cf. [1] Perhaps the term is intended to be a veiled reference to the cruel act described in some detail in Psalm 137(136):9.[2] Numbers did not matter: murder is murder. 20:53, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

At time Beth had population between 300 and 1000, and number of babies would be between 7 and 20.

It seems unlikely Josephus would leave out as grave a crime as infanticide as from his writing it is apparent that Josephus did not think highly of Herod; also a massacre of a large scale would inevitably be cited by other sources.Saltyseaweed 21:02, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Herod did so many other, spectacularly bloodthirsty, things, I doubt the death of 20 infants in an agricultural town was even a blip on the radar.

[edit] Herod kills another son

5 days before H died, H killed another of his sons, from first wife Doris.

H died at 70 and was buried at Herodian.

Historian: H helped create conditions to enable Christianity to arise. JC's teachings gave hope to oppressed people.

Source: BBC Manchester/Discovery channel production.

- Wikibob 15:23, 2004 Mar 14 (UTC) - edited by me between 17:44, 2004 Mar 14 (UTC) and 02:28, 2004 Mar 15 (UTC).

Keep in mind that there is absolutely NO historical evidence of this at all, outside of the "bible", which is at best, wildly inaccurate and full of exaggerations, lies and half-truths.

[edit] The Great?

How come, and how did he become, "the Great"? It's something that's always puzzled me, and something that'd make a good addition to the article too, jguk 22:41, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There was at least one other ruler from the Herod dynasty, also called Herod, but he was less significant. "The Great" is a disambiguator. --Philopedia 00:49, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Herod did a number of things that endeared him in the eyes of his contemporaries even as they dispised him for his cruelty, including his expansion of the Temple complex, the massive structure he ordered built at the Cave of the Patriarchs, etc. Under his reign, he managed to retain the air of sovereignty as well, despite the Roman occupation. Tomer ^TALK July 4, 2005 21:00 (UTC)

Maybe a little study of the relevant material in Josephus' writings would help to answer this question?! 22:59, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Once again: BC -v- BCE

Quite aware of the tenacity with which some of my fellow-Christians like to cling on to BC and AD under any circumstances, and also the heated past discussion of the subject in Wikipedia, I nevertheless consider it a pity that in the article itself "Before Christ" is used. This way of dating is not particularly suited for a piece of predominantly Jewish history in an encyclopedia that aims to be free of any form of bias. Whilst BCE/CE have their own problems, they are a step in the right direction. In view not least of the mistake in calculating the year 1, perhaps one day the international community gets round to introducing BWD/WD = Before World Date/World Date, or some such solution; but right now we have to make do with what we have got and be sensible and sensitive about it. 22:59, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I really take pity on any article that uses BCE notation. One of our editors has previously said that in a survey BC is more prevalent by a factor of 50 to 1! BC is the only standard used, understood and preferred by the vast majority of the general public, who are, after all, our target audience. Whatever personal views any of us have, we must be sensitive to the needs of our audience (not of the audience of other publications). Also, we already have a policy, backed up by an ArbCom decision, of "no changes", so let's keep things as they are (ie on BC notation), jguk 05:49, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

The history of the Jews in Herod's day is surely a subject which has historically been of greater interest to Christians than to Jews, isn't it? While Josephus, our main source for the period, was himself a Jew, his works were mostly preserved by Christians, while the Talmudic scholars and their successors were never terribly interested, and what they did say was simply inaccurate. john k 06:58, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

a) Josephus did not write with hindsight, i.e. he could not have known that he would owe the preservation of his writings to Christian authors because of their interest in the sacred sites he describes – especially once they had been built over, and later when for long periods pilgrimages were not possible because of the political realities –, nor which of the subjects he recorded would interest posterity at any one time in history. Josephus' opus is part of the patrimony of his people; and they have a right to focus on some aspects to the exclusion of others during their own journey through time. In modern times the historian has come to be respected for his accuracy regardless of the individual scholars' religious persuasion; and considerable efforts are being made also to understand the man.

I don't see how this is even vaguely relevant. You called this a piece of "predominantly Jewish history." But while Herod's time is of course a part of the history of the Jews, it is one of the particular parts of the history of the Jews which has always been of much greater interest to Christians than to Jews, and which continues to be of greater interest to Christians than to Jews. As such, I don't see how it can be described as "predominantly Jewish history" - it is clearly an important part of both Jewish and Christian history. john k 05:46, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Care to borrow my copy of Josephus? There is even an edition excerpting just the Herodian history. Herod is as relevant to the history of the Jewish people as Hitler is to that of the history of the German nation. As a born West German I trust I have a right to say this concerning German history. 22:33, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Sure, I am not trying to deny that Herod is relevant to the history of the Jewish people. I am merely saying that he is just as relevant, if not more so, to the history of early christianity, and that his reign is thus not a topic of preeminent interest to the Jews. And I simply don't understand your comment about Josephus. Josephus was a Jew, and he discussed Herod a lot, yes. But Josephus's emphases were irrelevant to the Talmudic commentators who codified the modern, post-70 AD, form of Judaism, and to whom Herod was not terribly significant. john k 23:14, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

For a third party view on the extent of Herod's relevance for Jewish history cf. [3].

As regards the Christian faith, the Herod incident is not crucial to it. Even without it the Christian belief would not be affected in any way. 14:25, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

b) What is Wikipedia's "target audience"? Just to claim to have a "target audience" suggests that Wikipedia is not free from bias. Does "the general public" consist only of Christians? Is it only "the audience" that matters or also the contributors, in which case is only "the general public" contributing or also learned scholars, and is there not often a great deal of cross-referencing? Why do we Christians have to insist on a "Before Christ" and "Anno Domini" dating of subjects that go beyond purely Christian interest? Why do we have to walk all over Jewish people and what is closely and indeed predominantly related to them, such as their own history? For example, the so-called Massacre of the Innocents is just one incident in Herod's hugely eventful life that proportionately is therefore of vastly greater interest to such diverse disciplines as intertestamental studies, archeology and Roman history. Can we Christians not be tolerant of those of a divergent religious belief? After all, the Almighty who created us all, gave us a free will as the noblest expression of our human dignity, and Himself respects it; and this means freedom of choice, though also responsibility for one's choices, including concerning religious belief. I have no idea how the majority of Jewish contemporaries think about BCE/CE; but until a more inclusive dating method can be agreed by all peoples, is "Before Common Era"/"Common Era" not a sign of a budding willingness to treat each other according to the human dignity with which we were created?

c) What does it mean to take pity on articles using BCE dating? Is the use of BC and AD intended to be a tool of evangelization? Hit others over the head with it where they cannot escape it, e.g. when they seek information about their own history? As a Christian, a traditional Roman Catholic, I may lament the erosion of Christian living in our country; but in our modern multi-faith society I must also be mindful of the sensitivities of non-Christians. I do not see how someone who does not believe that the Christ has already come, can reasonably be expected to reckon the dates of their history by relating them to the Christ's past date of birth.

23:52, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Anon, just as we reflect (but do not decide) on the facts, similarly we should reflect on how our audience is likely to wish to read things. This is true of all publications, we are no different. Clearly different decisions on style will be made by different publications - something would have gone seriously awry if that were not the case. Here our audience is everyone - wherever they may be worldwide, as long as they may be looking on the internet for English language information - and therefore it is that audience (and that audience alone) that we should take note of, jguk 23:09, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

My two cents are definitely that the "BCE" terminology is even more essential in article that is integral to dating the birth of Jesus-- for both christian and non-christian audiences. "Herod died in 4BC, Jesus was born before Herod died, therefore Jesus was born before 4 BC". Surely, many in the audience would find this a confusing contradiction. I also, like some, find BC/AD to be (very slightly) POV, and would welcome all of wikipedia standardizing BCE/CE usage. I personally find myself wanting to give in to the temptation to become a Era Notation Czar, as I'm sure many of you do. (jguk has done over 1,000 edits changing CE->AD, so he, like I, no doubt has thoughts he too cares deeply about on this subject). But on the other hand, whichever notation is used, everyone knows which year they refer to-- and i suppose i the important point. Most people who use the BC/AD notation on wikipedia probably do so not out of any kind of religious furvor, but merely due to simple convention. Any changes to the notation are still contentious indeed (see Wikipedia:Eras). But the first author on this article used BC, who am I to change it? Alecmconroy 08:14, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand the debate between using BC and BCE. Even if you use BCE (Before Current Era), what is the basis for the starting point of the current era? It is the birth of Jesus. Some hate God so much they would even seek to rewrite the history of Western Civilization. If you wish to be intellectually honest, propose changing the numbering system all together (which the Bible predicts the Little Horn will attempt to do). Go ahead and fill up your hate to the full. The nations rage but. . . . . Unsigned comment by 70.141.151.190

Does this mean I'm the Little Horn? Cool. I'd always figured I was going to have some role in the end times. --Alecmconroy 03:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Herod in the New Testament

Just did a rewrite of "Herod and The Massacre of Innocents" to try to make it a little more NPOV. I tried to clarify what is "Herod, the historical figure" and what is "Herod, the character in the Gospel of Matthew"-- the two may be the same according to some people, they may be different according to others. I therefore tried to use the present tense when relating the narrative contained in Matthew 2, and added a little disclaimer at the end that there is a debate on the historical accuracy of the whole thing. This way we can both present the narrative in its entirety but not definitively rule on whether the story contained in the gospel is historically True. Hope no one hates me for it :) Alecmconroy 06:28, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Parkfoto edited, I reverted, I partially reinstated

I reverted some recent edits by Parkfoto because they were interspersed with mysterious parkfoto.com text and references to Onischuk. I left a message on Parkfoto's talk page, and then started reinstating the edits that made sense: here, here and here.

At which point I noticed the dates for the lunar eclipses are inconsistent, NASA shows a total eclispe on Mar 23 at 5 BCE, while the article has a partial at 4 BC. At the same time an anon is now editing the article, so I'll leave it for now, although there is again the strange text appearing. I may look at it later.

Meanwhile does anyone have cites for the historian Appianos? And is Onischuk a real person? I find nothing using google. -Wikibob 21:47, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Citations Needed, Esp. in the Death Section

Dear Friends: In its current state, this article does not have scholarly citations to support its facts. Since there is considerable debate about the evidence for the life of Herod and what it means, it would be good to add them. For instance, who is advocating the Year 0 hypothesis? (BTW, there was no year 0). To the best of my knowledge. the 4 BC date is still the most accepted theory. After New Year's I'll double check that. In the mean time, where does all this stuff come from? --CTSWyneken 12:26, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

4 BCE is the most accepted theory. I have seen a very effective argument for 1 BCE, however. Here is the link to the web page (Book?): http://askelm.com/star/star011.htm

It seems pretty clear that the current page makes heavy use of this source. However, in its current form it is painful to read. I would sugguest removing references to Jesus in relation to Herod's death, since the date of Jesus' death is also in question. The connection between Jesus and Herod could have its own section, which would help clean everything up.

As for the date of Herod's death, I think it would be best if there was a section arguing for 4 BCE and a section arguing for 1 BCE. External links should probably also be included to save the reader the trouble of trying to follow the details. As I said before, this web page--http://askelm.com/star/star011.htm--would be a good external link.

Here is another link arguing for 1 AD: http://www.griffithobs.org/IPSPlanPlatt.html

Here is a link for the information about the star (same source): http://askelm.com/star/ In my opinion it should be dropped because it does not relate specifically to Herod. It relates to Jesus.

Is there any chance this page could be cleaned up?

--Paul 1:23, 29 June 2006

yes, most of the death section should be, well... completely removed. Especially the star of bethlehem stuff. Theories exist already on that page, and are at least of no use for discovering Herod's death date Thanatosimii 06:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Martin's book self-published?

Ernest L. Martin's book The Star That Astonished the World was published by Associates for Scriptural Knowledge (A.S.K), whose web site appears to be http://www.askelm.com. I note that the last three letters of askelm are the initials of Ernest L. Martin. I also note on [4] that Ernest L. Martin is the founder of A.S.K. Also, every one of the eight books listed under "Book Topics" on the A.S.K. home page is by Martin. To my mind, that makes the books essentially self-published. I don't think Martin's book should be cited in Wikipedia unless reliable scholarly sources can be found that recommend the book. --Gerry Ashton 01:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not NPOV

This article is highly Christian POV. Its only source seems to be from the Gospels and Josephus. ems 03:18, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

The impression I get is that there aren't any significant sources on Herod other than Josephus. Is this incorrect? FiggyBee 14:38, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, how does Josephus represent a Christian POV? Ems appears to be an Orthodox Jew, and I'd imagine that his problem with the article is that it relies on Josephus rather than rabbinic traditions about Herod. A section in the article about rabbinic traditions is fine, but every history I've ever seen of the period relies mostly on Josephus, and assumes the (much later) rabbinic materials to be of limited value for determining the actual history of the period. john k 17:35, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

There not having been any discussion on the matter in almost a month, I'm removing the tag. Angr (talk • contribs) 19:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Nobody pays any attention to those tags anyway. Most Wikipedians never use them. --07:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits of May 29 2006

The recent edits (5/29) by user 213.219.161.27 have caused an awful lot of "jumbling" and bad links. I'd fix them where necessary, but I don't want to intrude on the requests for citations, etc. Would someone, preferably 213.219.161.27, please clean up these edits? 192.234.13.40 17:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possibly useful online reference for Herod chronology

http://www.ctsfw.edu/events/symposia/papers/sym2006steinmann.pdf

Proposes:

Late 39 B.C. Herod appointed king by the Romans

Tishri 38 B.C. Beginning of Herod’s first regnal year

10 Tishri 36 B.C. Herod conquers Jerusalem; Antigonus executed

Tishri 35 B.C. Beginning of Herod’s first regnal year in Jerusalem

20 B.C. Herod begins work on the temple in Jerusalem

Late 19 or early 20 B.C. Work on Temple building completed

12 B.C. Work on Temple precincts completed

11 or 10 B.C. Work on Caesarea Sebaste completed

4 B.C. Murder of Herod’s brother Pheroras; Antipater deposed as Herod’s heir; Archelaus named Herod’s heir

2 B.C. Jesus born

First quarter of 1 B.C. Antipater executed; Herod dies

I agree. Haldrik 03:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article is not the place for discussion of chronology of Jesus

An anonymous user just added a lot of material primarily about Jesus rather than Herod (it also suffers from POV problems). Since this article is supposed to be about Herod the Great rather than Jesus, I suggest that some of the new material be moved to Chronology of Jesus or simply deleted altogether. Grover cleveland

[edit] Onischuk-Parkfoto Contributions Ignored

Birth of Jesus & Death of Herod Interwined - RE: Josephus & the Biblical references. One set of findings regarding Jesus birthdate does reinforce the date of Herod's death. I agree it could be moved to Jesus Chronology,and referenced as a note-link, but the data should not be deleted. If you check the wikipedia history going back to 20dec2005, you will see that I managed to point out several key facts that were unknown at the time - Apianos, Eclipse 9 Jan. and Christs Birth/Guiding Star data that has since been verified by NASA, which thus confirms via my astonomical deductions and thus the assumptions made by scholars who are given credits as references. If you are going to edit my comments and hide my findings, at least have the PROFESSIONAL COURTESY to cite me as a source & confirming reference. Its not everyday you have somebody figure this stuff out on their own, determining with certainity the dates of Herods death and Christs birth, which were very uncertain in academic circles before my work. cheers, dan onischuk www.parkfoto.com

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