Talk:Herbert von Karajan
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[edit] Criticism section
The "criticism" section of this page, IMHO is well written, well documented, and deserves to be there. But I gotta say that it is so long, and there is so little on the other side, that it seems unbalanced to me. I'm not a von Karajan fan and I'm not enough of a classical music cognoscenti to write any balancing paragraphs, but isn't there anyone who could speak with sincere and well-informed conviction of von Karajan's status as clearly the towering figure in orchestral music in the closing decades of the twentieth century?
I knew an old friend of my parents, now deceased, who was Jewish and escaped from Nazi Germany during the war... who nevertheless loved music and believed firmly that von Karajan was head and shoulders above all other contemporary conductors and truly set the musical standard. Dpbsmith 14:18, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- I think your remarks are dead on, Dpbs, and I'm sorry I didn't notice them earlier. After an initial episode of venting my own (rather fervent) distaste I've tried to gradually steer the article back towards NPOV. Hopefully, as you said, someone with more positive views will eventually come along and produce a truly NPOV article. Cheers, Opus33 00:29, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Still seems kind of biased. I've got a few things I want to add anyway. Karajan's conducting has a quality and depth of musicianship. It is often very polished sounding, having voloptious finesse or intense richness of pathos, etc. and evenly matched hues of tone color and balanced forces of thematic elements. Perhaps a lot of criticism against Karajan comes from the fact that he often treated the demanding environment of the recording studio as an intense kind of kiln from which the piece rises in all it's musical glory later in the concert hall--a means for the perfect live performance. 65.203.174.134 02:13, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Von and Kara
Just as a piece of trivia, the "von" and "kara" particles in his name are contrasting one to other:
- kara means "vasal" or "lower-class" (quite common for Vlachs/Aromanians; see List of Vlachs)
- von is used only by German aristocrats.
(I'm not sure whether this is encyclopedic enough to be included in the article).
- I think it's interesting enough to go in the article. Not knowing anything of such matters, I'm very conscious of the significance of the "Von" but didn't know about the "kara." Go for it. Dpbsmith 16:09, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Family origin
The article currently says that "he was born /.../ in a Aromanian family /.../". I've read an article on Karajan in the Slovenian leading newspaper Delo that says that Herbert's mother Marta Kosmač was indeed Slovene by nationality. Because this is the first time I hear this and because of the general style of that particular article, I didn't want to correct the info in the wiki-article, but I wonder if anyone knows anything more on this issue? --romanm (talk) 11:26, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
They were all mixed up in the old KUK Austro-Hung. Empire weren' they? According to Karl-Markus Gauß he was really a Vlach/Aromanian see article if you understand a bit of Hungarian . The article was originally published in the Austrian paper Der Standard Abject 11:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Generally acknowledged as greatest of century?
Hmmm... To say this is really going very far out on a limb, I think, given all the negative things critics have said about Karajan's conducting.
If my anonymous colleague really wants to put this in the article, perhaps it might be best say that there are lots of individual people who think he was the greatest (see for instance Dpbsmith's remarks above), but not imply that this is a consensus. Opus33 05:21, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Well said. I also politely disagree that he is "generally acknowledged as greatest of the century" though there are certainly some people who think so. (I'm not one of them.) "One of the..." is certainly accurate. Antandrus 05:30, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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- Well, if I were to attribute a "greatest" title, it would probably go to Karajan, but generally I think such a title is unfair given the wide variety of artistic genius in conductors of the century, Beecham, Furtwangler, Celibidache, Klieber, Levine, Szell, Reiner, Toscanini, and Klemperer (even Nickisch :-), to name a random few, unless he were very commonly characterized by critics as the greatest, which is doubtful, though towards the end of his life he was voted the conductor's conductor (I'm not entirely sure what that means since it's been a while since I read Richard Osbourne's biography), then I say we satisfy ourselves with "one of the greatest." 65.203.174.134 01:55, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] The Sabine Meyer Affair
Very surprised to not see this included. Is that purposely? In any case it did cause alot hype in the mid 80s as Karajan showed excessive favouritism to a young female clarinetist by the name of Sabine Meyer. Not sure what happened, but another point is that any young performer that Karajan pointed to would be sure of immediate fame overnight. Any takers out there on Sabine Meyer?
[edit] Postwar activities
Deleted reference to Karajan conducting the Orchestre de Paris in the 1948-53 time period as it did not yet exist. Grover cleveland 20:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- Dbpsmith: you reinserted the reference to the Orchestre de Paris in the 1948-53 section, presumably by accident. A casual glance at that article will tell you that that orchestra was not founded until 1967. I'm deleting it again. Grover cleveland 19:10, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Origin in Greek Macedonia?
I have moved the following section from the main article.
[edit] Roots
Herbert von Karajan's ancestors came from Greek-Macedonia, Kozani specifically and arrived in Vienna via the electorate of Saxony - the family's original name was "Karajannis". From the Greek "Karajannis," it became the noble "von" Karajan
It is the only edit by an anon user, and has no references. Besides, it contradicts an older version of the text, which states that his family originated in Ioannina in the Greek province of Epirus. If somebody has a good reference for which story is correct, feel free to update the article. --Valentinian 00:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
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- Hi Valentinian, not sure were the non user got his/her info from but when I did some searching on the Karajannis family, I came across this:
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- Georg Johannes Karajoannes: Herbert von Karajan's Great-Great-Grandfather was born in Kozani (Kozane) in the Karstic Mountains in Macedonia. In 1767 he left Greece travelling first to Vienna and then moving on to Chemnitz in Saxony. He and his brother, Theodor Johannes, founded cotton weaving mills and factories there, thus helping to establish Saxony's textile industry. For their services in the furtherance of trade and industry, Frederick Augustus III, Elector of Saxony raised them both to the nobility on 1 June 1792. As knights of the Holy Roman Empire, the Karajannis family henceforth called themselves "Karajan". [1]
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- Johannes/Jannis/Johann are the Latinez versions of Ioannis(John), which it seems is also part of their last name "Karaioannis", I've also seen it spelled "Karayannis". The site has a detailed description of the Karajannis family, including a few pics. Don't know how "reliable" this info is but this is what I was able to find regarding the Epirus/Macedonia origins issue. ~Mallaccaos, 14 March 2006
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- It is not an ideal source, but at least we now have a source. I've restored the section (and rewritten it. I've used the German Wikipedia as reference regarding the proper spelling of the family name. If I've made mistakes, feel free to update. --Valentinian (talk) 20:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Length of CD
The material about Bruckner's 5th and 8th symphonies makes no sense. The editor speculates that the length of a CD was chosen to be 74 minutes so they could fit on two CDs instead of three. That would be true even if the length of a CD was 40 minutes! In fact, many recordings of Bruckner 5 and 8 fit on one CD - but not Karajan's.
I propose that this material be removed. Grover cleveland 02:00, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
- I've removed it. The material was:
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- It is possible, however, that Karajan had the Bruckner Symphonies in mind with regards to the 74 minute length. The Fifth and Eighth are longer still at 80 minutes a piece, but could therefore be recorded on two discs instead of three. While there is no concrete evidence of this, it remains a likely possibility.
- As worded, it sounds like the speculation or the opinion of the editor who inserted it, which of course is not allowable per the verifiability policy. Opinions and speculation of course can be put in an article if they are the opinions and speculation of some reasonably authoritative source. So, if someone can find a reasonable source for this suggestion, a book or an audio magazine or whatever, they can reinsert it. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
The current material about Karajan's alleged role in setting the length of the CD is totally unsupported by references. Please could someone fix this: otherwise I propose we delete this whole topic under WP:Verifiability. Grover cleveland 10:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following material from the article until it can be verified:
- As a a matter of fact, it was Karajan who argued that the standard length of the compact disc should be set by this most famous and universal of works. However, when searching for the longest existing version of the symphony, Akio Morita, CEO of Sony and a close friend of Karajan's, realized that it was none of the Austrian's recordings (at an average length of 66 minutes), but the 1951 Wilhelm Furtwängler version recorded in Bayreuth by Walter Legge, which henceforth set the average limit of the CD.
Grover cleveland 05:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Politics: Nazi past
The NYTimes August 15, 2006 "The Nazis and the Salzburg Festival: A Disputed Film History", article is primarily about the Salzburg Festival. But it contains this quote:
- "After World War II the story shifts to the decades when the formidable Salzburg-born conductor Herbert von Karajan became the intimidating leader of the festival. Bluntly calling Karajan “a Nazi, a true believer,” Michael Steinberg, a historian, reminds us that Karajan joined the party twice, early on in Austria when it was illegal, then again after the annexation."
Seems there are facts here which can be verified (which the NYTimes generally does) and added to the politics section. There seems to be more room for ambiguity than the article currently allows for.
[edit] Von and Kara
Kudos to whoever that added the Karajan/Beethoven 5th video - it shows Karajan at the peak of his career with all of the famed intensity.
