Talk:Henry Morgenthau, Sr.

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Henry Morgenthau, Sr. is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to better improve and organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.

Good job, Shimgray. Yet, the parts I had written which you removed were not a matter of "POV," as you described in the history of editing notes; quite the contrary, the witness for the facts you were uncomfortable with come from Morgenthau himself.

If you've read the "Story Behind the Story," you can see the book was ghostwritten, beyond doubt. The date of the book's release coinciding with WWI's end has nothing to do with its propagandistic intent; publishing takes a while, and the ambassador had no way of predicting the turns of events since he decided to take pen in hand. Morgenthau was interested in getting the USA into the war; as you know, the USA entered the war late in the proceedings.

Morgenthau worked from a platform of dishonesty and racism, regarding the Armenian chapter. The poison of his book has caused much harm, and there is no need to whitewash his intentions today.

[edit] Slandering of Morgenthau by Torque, the author of the racist site, tallarmeniantale.

I added a reference to the fact that Morgenthau was also the Grandfather of American Historian Barbara Tuchman.

This website can not be used as reference to any Wikipedia article, it compares Armenians with instects, animals, and lower than animals etc. The reference to Morgenthau, and his distortions have already been addressed in the Armenian genocide talk page archives. Fadix 21:40, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

His role in relation to the history of the Armenian Genocide is contentious; the first major work on the subject in the West was his Ambassador Morgenthau's story, still used as a source, which discusses Turkish atrocities against the Armenians. However, it has often been alleged that Morgenthau concocted specific incidents (and, indeed, that he never left Istanbul), exaggerated the general case, and sharply deviated from private letters in his published work. It has also been claimed the book was ghostwritten. The text also demonstrates a dislike of, and animosity towards, the Turks, which is often seen as supporting allegations of partisanship.

Let "show" from where his "stories" came from. An example, one of his sources, a Consul to the East, Leslie Davis, has witnessed the events. It was even asked to him to get very reliable informations, which he did by asking to a Turk to show him for a day, the places where Armenians were slaughtered. Besides, his work reports are nothing compared with German records that are more direct, and mind here that Germany was Ottoman allies. Fadix 21:59, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Some examples of this bias within his writing (Morgenthau is on record for having given his Armenian assistants [Hagop S. Andonian and Arshag K. Schmavonian] permission to write some of his letters) portrayed the Turks as less-than-human creatures: "inarticulate, ignorant, and poverty-ridden slaves" (p. 13), "barbarous" (p.147), "brutal" (p.149), "ragged and unkempt" (p. 276), and "parasites" (p.280). The Ambassador also wrote: "The descendants of Osman hardly resemble any people I have ever known. They do not hate, they do not love; they have no lasting animosities or affections. They only fear" (p.99). By contrast, he cites "The Armenians are known for their industry, their intelligence, and their decent and orderly lives. They are so superior to the Turks intellectually and morally."

Not exactly, Torque once more is either distorting what really happened(Andonian), or probably ignore or misinterpret what Lowry actually has written about the work. No one has written Morgenthau dispatches but him, they can be traced back to the documents he himself received from the East, those are different than the letters used to write the book. His brutal description of Turks is apparent back from those dispatches, and are absent before he was sent there. The answer lies behind what he heard and the reports he have read, his disgust of what was happened directly influenced his opinion of Turks, much like witnesses of the crimes and brutalities in the occupied Europe during World War II. Morgenthau is not a robot. Fadix 21:59, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Story was begun in late 1917, and began being serialised in newspapers and magazines in mid-1918; it is often suggested (through correspondence Morgenthau had with President Wilson) that it was written with the intent of bringing the United States into the First World War, but a look at the dates indicates it came too late for that. There is evidence that Morgenthau nonetheless intended the book as a work of propaganda, for domestic consumption by a population often actively hostile to the idea of being involved in a foreign war. However, even were this the case, it would not automatically imply that the contents were untrue, merely that he saw them to be politically useful.

False, Torque again is misinterpreting his own revisionist materials he can't digest. It is claimed that his reports were to force the United States into the war, and not the book, since during his writing of the book, he was one of the first to learn that the US has planed to enter in the war, therefore, I see far how the books production could have been to drag the US in the war. I also see how a book for public consumption could influence the decision of the government. Fadix 21:59, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

On the other hand, there are several indications demonstrating the ambassador's deviation from reality. For example, on July 16, 1915, Morgenthau cabled the Department of State with his dispatch that "a campaign of race extermination is in progress." However, in September he recorded in his private diary that he heard from Zenop Bezjian, Vekil [representative] of Armenian Protestants, that half a million Armenians were displaced and presumably alive, and the ones "at Zor were fairly well satisfied; that they have already settled down to business and are earning their livings."

Another distortion, in late 1915, in fact there were hundreds of thousands of Armenians that survived through the transit of Allepo, and the Zor city, and this was what he heard from Zenop Bezjian. But the coming months, a circular order coming from the Ittihadist government, ordering the transfer of those that survived back in the concentration camps, 21 major convoys, each very huge, were sent back in the slaughter house. Fadix 21:59, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

• You might like to be a bit more careful with your attributions - I wrote the first and third paragraphs there; Torque's edits are the second and fourth ones. If you look again, the stylistic differences should be obvious. The whole thing was a bit of a POV mess when I started on it; [1] gives you some idea. (I've been meaning to get back to this article for months - I was on holiday when Torque readded his POV stuff - but I was on holiday then, and you know how things slip)
• I'm not particularly sorry to see the whole thing removed, but I did feel that - as far as I could tell, being only briefly acquainted with the subject - that they were suitably equivocal and NPOV. (his role is contentious; there have been allegations regarding partisanship. "He didn't much like Turks" seems well-accepted, I believe. There are a lot of extant claims, if memory serves, that it was written as a work of propaganda; it seemed worthwhile to summarise these and mention that even were these the case - it's hard to say at this remove - that it does not obviate the content of the book.
• Since his historical role now seems to heavily involve this period, I do think it's worth putting the (relatively NPOV) discussion of Story back in, which I'll do unless you have strong objections. Shimgray 22:18, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

That was quick. Sorry if I offended you, I did realise that you added some stuff, but I realised only after I accused all on Torque. I do agree that the book is considered as propaganda by many, Lowry did wrote an essay answering the book, but Lowry is a very controversial figure, more than Morgenthau. But I thought that the actual section as it was, should have taken much less spaces, it took as much spaces as his biography, as if people know him for that only, when he was more than this(he was the ambassador). Besides, the one that succeeded him, after he was replaced, has sent similar dispaches, so it is a simplification to directly dump the book as propaganda. Fadix 22:28, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

As for the last part of what you wrote, I have no objection you bring what you wrote in, even thought I believe it should be clarified. Fadix 22:38, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I think it is fair to say the book is significant - it's what he's historically most noted for, it seems, and it's probably the context for people coming here to read about him. So it's better to address it than have it ignored; I figure a couple of paragraphs is fair enough, though anything much more and it might be best to go in a seperate article. Is there anything you particularly object to in the NPOVed version, or shall I just stick it back in and let editing take its toll? Shimgray 22:43, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

The second and forth paragraph objections are a matter of factuality, not only about simple misrepresentation of position. Besides, I do not agree that he was best known for the book. He is known also for his work for the foundation of a Jewish state, which is not covered there at all. Fadix 22:58, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

This in my opinion is a a good base on how this article should be written: http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/morgenthau.htm Fadix 23:04, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

We pretty much have all the biographical content from there. Anyway, I still hold it's worth having something on the book, even if it's less historically notable than I was led to believe -and wasn't it his son who was most involved with setting up Israel? Shimgray 23:16, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

True about his Son, but he is considered of having saved the Palestinian Jews from starvation. “The Assimilationist Dilemma: Ambassador Morgenthau's Story” by Barbara W. Tuchman. In this text, Barbara W. Tuchman traces back his implication there, he as well is believed to have stopped the evacuation of the Baghdad Jews, planned by the Ottoman government. I do agree that there should be something about the book, but it is a matter of fact that the accuracy of the informations in that book are largely, near entirly questioned only by those who deny the Armenian genocide, also German(Ottoman allies) reports regarding the Armenian conditions would make of the books "stories" about the Armenians, jocks. So I hardly see how anyone could imply exagertion, as if the events discribed have been exagerated by him, when Ottoman allies reported much worst. Afteral, the only who has really criticized the book, is Lowry, who was exposed to work for the Turkish government. Roger W. Smith, Eric Markusen and Robert Jay Lifton have published about his implication, an article that appeared in the Holocaust and Genocide Studies, that could be accessed here. http://users.ids.net/~gregan/ethics.html Fadix 23:31, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy Section May Not Be POV

While it is important to have the information about the official position of the Turkish government, my personal opinion is that the text of the section is misleading and may give the impression that it is the majority opinion of international scholars. I suggest adding more text explaining the arguments of those scholars who believe Morgenthau's account to be accurate. Augustgrahl