Talk:Hatshepsut

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Contents 1 General Bias 2 Transgender Issue 3 Mythology 4 Nitocris claims 5 Manetho and Hatsepsut 6 Removed picture 7 Images 7.1 Civ4 image 8 Corrected Names, Titles and Removed Heiress Theory Presumption 9 Some comments 10 Thoughts? 11 Hatshepsut 12 Hieroglyphs again 13 broke

[edit] General Bias

I studied Hatshepsut last year and a problem was there were many historians biased against Hatshepsut. However that isn't the problem with this article, I got the feeling it is very heavily biased for her.

I am fairly certain some of the information in this article isn't widely believed by historians and is debated very heatedly amongst them. This article tends to only portray one side of the debate amongst historians. Perhaps people who know more about Hatshepsut and her reign could post more information about it? (I'll post what I can remember and when I have time what I can research, but I'm fairly busy so I thought I'd point out the bias as well).

Is this an incorrect use of the Discussion Page? --John Lynch 13:39, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Transgender Issue

The article originally had

Her motivation for wearing men's clothing was political and not sexual.

I changed this to say some historians believe that it was political. Many historians (such as Gardner) believe the worst about Hatshepsut so they claim she wore men's clothing because she was a cross-dresser (I'm not saying cross dressing is bad, but the historians who claim this mean it in a derogatory way). Other historians such as Gae Callendar believe it was only political (I went to a lecture by her). I didn't include either of their names because I am only 80% sure they are the historians who believe as much. So I decided to speak in more general terms until someone can do some research on it.--John Lynch 02:58, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Mythology

I added in the version of her Divine Conception that I learnt. This page has a much more detailed explanation, but it isn't one I learnt so I thought I would put it here until someone has a chance to verify it.--John Lynch 03:13, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I studied Hapshepsut last year and I found out that she was the first female pharoh of Egypt. She married her brothe Thutmose II. Thutmose II died leaving a son, Thutmose III, who was only 10 at the time. Thutmose III wasn't Hapshepsut's son, but he was the legal pharoh. Since he was too young to rule, Hapshepsut took his place. When Thutmose III was ready to rule, she refused his pharohship and continued ruling as pharoh. It was only after 20 years of her ruling that Thutmose III finally took over his rightful kingdom. When Hapshepsut died, all of her files mysteriously disappeard. All of her momunetal heads were beheaded and buried and all drawings of her scratched off. Historians still don't know who did this. Many guess it was jealousy form Thutmose III, or was it someone who didn't believe in woman ruling Egypt? Who knows? Maybe you do.

[edit] Nitocris claims

"...both of those honors belong to Nitocris of the Sixth dynasty. However, we are not 100% sure of Nitocris's rule, so Hatshepsut is the first woman to 100% sure take the title of Pharaoh."

I am removing these claims about Nitocris until, evidence is produced that she had herself crowned King of Egypt. Though we use the word Pharaoh to denote a ruler of Egypt, the term actualy comes into use only in the 19th dynasty, as the father (or head) of the Great House. Hatshepsut not only claimed to be queen regnant but to be the legitimate ruler of Egypt by taking the title King, there was no Egyptian equivalent of our word Queen, as in Queen Elizabeth I, only the Great Wife of Pharaoh. I have looked at various sources and none of them claim that Nitocris went any further in her claim to power, than Sobeknefru. Little is know, of Nitocris and some of what is known is wrong, Manetho's claim she built the third pyramid at Giza for example. Hatshepsut is currently one of the most popular Pharaohs in acedemia today, and I think given that her article is going to be in high demand we should be extra careful about the claims we make in it. After all this is supposed to beWikipedia:WikiProject_Ancient_Egypt's example article; and one we hope to eventually get featured status. -JCarriker 09:46, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

As someone unfamiliar with the subject, I find the treatment of this topic uneven and confusing in this article at present. The controversy about the claim of "first female pharoh" is highlighted in italics in the introduction, and apparently never mentioned in the article (there is an off-hand mention in the "Official propaganda" section). As someone who came to this article, was intrigued by something in the introduction, and was completely unable to find out more about the topic in the body, I don't think this is up to featured quality. --DDG 18:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

No it's not yet. Its still a work in progress. Thanks for your comments. -JCarriker 19:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Manetho and Hatsepsut

- Is possible that Tuthmose III may identify with Miphramuchthosis of Graeco-Egyptian historian Manetho?

- Is possible that Hatsepsut may identify with Miphris or Misaphris of Graeco-Egyptian historian Manetho?

--IonnKorr 22:38, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed picture

Where was that picture of that statue taken. The one picture which is now removed from the article. From a book I know, but where is that statue? If it's in Egypt I am bound to have a picture of it somewhere and could scan it. Garion96 (talk) 04:11, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I believe that statue is in the Metropolitan Museum of Art.-JCarriker 05:43, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I was afraid of that, I have been there but I doubt I have a picture. Will check just to be sure. Garion96 (talk) 11:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Images

At the request of JCarriker, I paid a visit to the Met today and documented the room of Hatshepsut artifacts. Here's a page with thumbnails of the images I uploaded; I took the liberty of replacing the fuzzy lead image in the article, but will leave it up to the contributors more familiar with this topic to decide how best to use these. The information given in the image descriptions comes from the placards accompanying each piece in the museum. I also took some pictures of the smaller head fragments you'll see mounted on the wall in the background of the panorama image; let me know if these will be useful as well. Postdlf 03:40, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Civ4 image

Jkp1187 removed the Civ4 image citing that it was not fairuse. He was directed to the image by a user who was upset that a similar image remained here when Jkp1187 removed one at Mansa Musa. However the usage on Mansa Musa was different than it was here and I have restored the pic. The use of the Civ4 image in Hatshepsut is quite different from the use of the image in Mansa Musa because in this article the image is used in the context of a discussion Hatshepsut in pop culture that includes Sid Meier's Civilization IV while the Mansa Musa pic was stuck in with no context. To my understanding and that of the colleagues (especially Theresa knott) I have consulted with, the usage in Hatshepsut does constitute fairuse. If someone has information that is more particular about why this image would not constitute fairuse please bring it to my attention. Thanks. -JCarriker 19:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Corrected Names, Titles and Removed Heiress Theory Presumption

March 15, 2006. I removed references to Hatshepsut possessing the title of "God's wife of Amun." She never possessed this title, according to Michel Gitton's work, Les divines éspouses de la 18e dynastie (1984: 61-66). She possessed only the title of "Wife of the God," in which "god" refers to the king, Thutmose II (Troy 1986: 18.13, and B2/25). She uses these titles only in her position as queen, but not as pharaoh (Troy 1986: 163), so she does not consider "the title of 'God's wife' as her favorite."

I also removed references to Meritre, which I assume refer to Thutmose III's Great Royal Wife, Merytre Hatshepsut. She is not a daughter of Hatshepsut, but the daughter of the Adoratrix Huy, as shown in British Museum statue EA 1280, in which Huy is shown as grandmother of the children of Thutmose III and Merytre Hatshepsut (Dodson 2004: 133). This lack of royal lineage is confirmed by the fact that Merytre Hatshepsut does not hold any title of sAt nsw, "royal daughter" in any of her titles (Troy 1986: 18.19), which she would do were she the daughter of Hatshepsut and Thutmose II. Her only royal titles are those associated with those of her king-husband, Thutmose III.

I revised and added the definition of an interregnum regent rather than "regent", as that is a specific type of regent in ancient Egyptian culture. Hatshepsut started off as an interregnum regent queen for Thutmose III, but later usurped the throne for herself as a ruling regent and Pharaoh. Present studies indicate she and Thutmose III ruled for awhile as co-regents, but actual dating as to this rule is rather vague (Tyldesley, for example).

Finally, I removed all references to the "royal heiress" theory of the succession of kingship, which ran throughout the article. This theory has been thoroughly rebutted by the following studies:

Mertz, B. 1952. Certain Titles of the Egyptian Queens and Their Bearing on the Hereditary Right to the Throne. Ph. D. Dissertation (Unpublished) Oriental Languages and Literature. University of Chicago: Chicago.

Robins, G. 1983. A Critical Examination of the Theory that the Right to the Throne of Ancient Egypt Passed through the Female Line in the 18th Dynasty. Göttinger Miszellen 62: 67-77.

_________. 1983. The God's Wife of Amun in the 18th Dynasty in Egypt. In A. Cameron and A. Kuhrt, Eds., Images of Women in Antiquity: 65-78. Cranberra: Croon Helm.

Troy, L. 1986. Patterns of Queenship: in ancient Egyptian myth and history. BOREAS 14. Uppsala: ACTA Universitatis Upsaliensis.

In all studies, the theory that the royal line of succession, which required the ascending king to marry a royal princess from the previous reign, was found to be untrue, with Sensonb, mother of Thutmose I, being the first of some 10 exceptions to this theory concerning queens and royal mothers of the 18th Dynasty.

In Robins' 1983 study published in GM 62, she concluded

"Not all kings marry woman of royal birth, or have mothers of royal birth, and this makes no difference to the position of the king or his queens on the monuments. Indeed, with the presumably high rate ot mortality, any form of inheritance which was rigidly formulated on the existence of a particular person would be impractible." (Robins 1983: 71).

Other references:

Dodson, A. and D. Hilton 2004. The Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt. London: Thames and Hudson.

Gitton, M. 1984. Les divine éspouses de la 18e dynastie. Centre de Recherches d'Histoire Ancienne 61/Annales Littéraires de l'Université de Besançon 306. Paris: Les Belles-Lettres.

Barbara

[edit] Some comments

I went through the article and gave it a general copyedit, and here's some things that should be done before another FAC:

• Cleanup the See also section.
• Add more inline references, and convert all bare links to {{cite web}}/{{cite book}}/{{cite journal}} citations. Whether you use Cite.php or Footnote3 references, be sure to be consistent throughout the article.
• Keep a citation immediately adjacent to quoted text.
• Make sure all the facts in the article check out.
• Get some sort of free replacement to the infobox image; it has killed the previous FA candidacies, and it is NOT GFDL.

Titoxd^{(?!? - help us)} 03:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

• Thank you for your comments Titoxd. As the person who has most worked to expand this article, I have given up and will not renominate this article as a FAC again. So it will likely not be renominated soon. -JCarriker 15:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thoughts?

Greetings. I have taken a large interest of late in the mass exapansion of other 18th Dynasty Articles, And so far have tenativly completed Ahmose I, Amenhotep I, and Thutmose I. Now, you'll notice that not far along if I keep moving in sequential order, I am goint to hit Hatshepsut. Unlike other 18th dynasty articles, however, Hatshepsut is not a total mess. There are some minor suggestions that I would like to raise. Would any of you object to overhauling the dating information? The dates of all Egyptian monarchs are not set in stone, but we (some of the members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Ancient Egypt) have been standardizing them more or less to Ian Shaw's or Nicolas Grimal's dates, and then I have been adding an entire section outlining basic logic for when the dates are placed when they are, and how long the reign is thought to last. Second among other minor concerns, since the data in the "Names" subsection is not particularly vital to the flow of the text of the article itself, and can be subsumed into the Pharaoh infobox, would anyone also be adverse to its oughtright removal, with relevant data all kept in the Pharaoh infobox? Finally, I am concerned about the lack of citations. The first three articles which I have worked on have about 40 references each. Now, while I am probably guilty of overcitation, I feel that an article of this length could stand to be cited a little more. There are large sections that need citations. Since this article is already a Good article, I don't think it would be wise for me to overhaul it like I've overhauled previous articles, but it could probably stand a little tweaking, which, in addition to replacing that picture with a GFDL one, could definitly remove all objections between this article and featured article. Thanatosimii 17:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)]

Well, I wrote an article on the dates of her reign. The dates here were high, but so far all the rest of the 18th dynasty has been dated low, since that is the most common system in recent years. The possibility of high has been moved into the paragraph, and the dates are changed to low. I've noticed that there are precious few citations in this article, and perhaps I could look into backing up many of the claims made. Thanatosimii 04:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hatshepsut

Hutshepsut was turn in to a pharaoh and was the 1st girl pharaoh in that time line! So she had to act like a guy.But she did that because thir was nothing to call a girl that was queen.

[edit] Hieroglyphs again

Hello people, some more about the names again-- the golden Horus name is listed as Hr Tst-tawy, Horus, who ties together the two lands. I gotta check but I think that's the Horus name of Smenekhkare. (edit: it's the name of Ahmose I) What is the proper golden Horus name for Hatshepsut?

Also, Nebty name = Fortunate of years? Is rnpt a masculine or feminine word? My notes don't say. Horus name = Ka's of the Powerful Woman? Does the t belong to a feminine wsr.t? --Cliau 13:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] broke

sometime in the recent vandalism spree, the infobox got broke. Now, I can revert the last two weeks or so, but people started editing good stuff over broken pages. This page needs a good lookover for the broke stuff, which I can't contribute right now. Thanatosimii 17:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)