Talk:Hate group

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[edit] VfD

Ladies and Gents, it's my judgement that the VfD consensus was to keep the material at Hate groups and new religious movements, but not at that location. Furthermore, wiki-precedent suggests that arbitrary article-splitting is not an acceptable practice. Therefore I am merging the material as a purely administrative procedure. I have no interest in or knowledge of the on-going debate save what I read on VfD. Mackensen (talk) 01:53, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Location of text

Admin Mackensed has judged that the VfD consensus was to keep the material but not at "Hate groups and new religious movements". My proposal then is:

I propose that instead of taking it as assumed that "the text" will be kept in its current form and that the only question is 'in which location', we instead concentrate on refactoring this page into two articles:

  • Hate group -- a description of "Hate group", the abstract concept;
  • List of purported hate groups -- a listing of groups that have been alleged to be hate groups, along with details of the allegations and any rebuttals there may be.

I think this will have benefits beyond just consistency with the way Cult and List of purported cults handle a similarly controversial subject; I think there will be less trouble coming to a consensus on each of the respective articles if we keep discussion of specific groups out of the in-the-abstract article whenever possible.

"Whenever possible" would mean that there might be some points in the article which would be easier to illustrate with a specific example, but that we should try to limit them, and use them only when we can come close to consensus on a) they illustrate the point better than would be possible without this example, and b) they illustrate the point better than another example would. -- Antaeus Feldspar 07:12, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Please read the VfD assessment by the admin.
that the VfD consensus was to keep the material at Hate groups and new religious movements, but not at that location.
Your proposal has value as an addition to the VfD results. Nobody is stopping you from starting a List of purported hate groups.--Zappaz 15:18, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There was no consensus to keep the material. Only that some material could be kept somewhere. Andries 15:21, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I saw nothing in the VfD assessment to indicate that the material was to be somehow exempted from the general Wikipedia rule which can be seen on any editing screen, "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it." (emphasis in original). You'd think that if that was implied, every time a VfD ended in a consensus to keep, then the admin who removed the VfD notice would put a {{protected}} tag on at the same time, but I can't think of a single case where that's been done. -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:25, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Of course this article can be mercilessly edited. We know that. Duh!. But you go ahead and do whatever you want to do. Clearly you give a hoot about consensus. Anybody can see that. Read the vFd comments, please, and count how many people supported your proposal? ZERO Uh? So go ahead and start your "putported hate groups" article. At least you will be doing something useful. --Zappaz 03:13, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
You know what, Antaeus :I take the above back, go ahead and do whatever you want.--Zappaz 03:18, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thank you, Zappaz. I'm glad that you're willing to give other people's ideas a fair trial. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:32, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Richard_G at Hate Group

moved from User_talk:Zappaz

Do you really think, Richard's contribution is worth filling that article? MacGregor has hardly posted at Ex-Premie.org. Does his former coming out as a critical ex make him a member of the ex-premie group? If there is any? Where is the proof? Why blow this article up with more statements on Rawat and Elan Vital? I do not understand this. You probably have a different attitude of what an encyclopedia should be and different goals you combine here. Keep blowing. Gary D's "think of the reader" doesn't seem to be your business anyway.Thomas h 18:35, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC).

The edits by Richard, that you deleted, and that I NPOVed later on, do not refer to a MacGregor, but to the person that signed an affidavit, and the content of the affidavit as filed with a Queensland court. I simply cleaned up the text and put it in a form that conforms with NPOV (rather than deleting the text as you did.)
I will pass on commenting about your assessments about me. I have learned that it is not worth my time. --Zappaz 06:37, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)


As I said many time before, I think that more than one sentence on Elan Vital and the ex-premies is exaggerated. Now I want to give a rebuttal to what Richard_G wrote making it even longer. Andries 06:54, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)


Thanks Andries, i see it the same way. Zappaz loves to blow this up, he is working very close with Richard_G as if he owns him something. He saved even the ex-premies article that has been deleted for him and in his name, see [2]. I once thought that he might have some interesting sides beyond the scope of cult/anticult, but i was wrong. Too bad.Thomas h 14:31, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Andries. I have tightened the text with info from the Criticism of Prem Rawat article. Thomas: The information is extracted from official documents in which references to ex-premies as a hate group were made. As such, this account is highly relevant to this article. And yes, you are wrong about the scope of my interests that, by the way, are none of your business.--Zappaz 03:09, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Live by your own rules, Zappaz. You poked your nose into my business and pried and investigated so that you could announce that you understood my interests [3] -- and of course later you declared that your conclusions about my "unsympathy" for a particular side were all the justification you needed to revert my changes. [4] So for you to claim that your interests are no business of anyone else's is of course rank hypocrisy. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:32, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Nope Antaeus, I will not reply to your remarks. Undeserving. -- Zappaz 03:58, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Of course not. Being caught in the act is embarrassing enough, isn't it?Thomas h 05:11, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Section merger

The section "Listing of hate groups" should be merged with List of purported hate groups. I don't see any point in having two lists which are out of sync with each other. -- Beland 03:33, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Very right. All these were already listed in List of purported hate groups. --Zappaz 03:51, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NRMs

The section titled, "Hate groups and new religious movements" is almost entirely duplicated in the article New religious movement. Therefore I'm going to delete the duplicate material from here, leaving a short summary. The material deals with NRMs (and their apostates) that are called "hate groups" by a few people. It would be more relevant for this article, I believe, to address hate groups which use the mantle of religion to cover their hate, for example, the Creativity Movement. -Willmcw 22:35, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it was supposed to be moved from there and leave a summary as agreed on a RfC. I have modified the summary using wording from the original material. --Zappaz 23:54, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't agree with this wording:
Advocates who regard certain fringe religious organizations, new religious movements or (controversially) "cults" as spurious and condemn their methods, call them "hate groups".
Someone does not have to believe a group is spurious in order to label it as a hate group. And why would it be more controversial to label a cult a hate group than a fringe religious organization? I think the version that I wrote is more NPOV, and more logical.
Certain fringe religious organizations, new religious movements, and cults have been labelled "hate groups" by their critics and apostates.
Can Zappaz provide evidence that to support the assertions in the other version? -Willmcw 00:09, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
You are right, Will. That sentence works better. I have replaced it, added some wikilinks and tidied it up just a tad. --Zappaz 04:05, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. Cheers, -Willmcw 07:16, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of hate group.

The definition has a few problems, it seems to me.

... advocates hate, hostility or violence towards ...[targets]... upon spurious grounds, despite a wider consensus that these people are not necessarily better or worse than any others.

Firstly the grounds do not need to be spurious, it seems to me (although they often are demonstrably so).

Secondly "wider consensus" risks being weasel words for "us right thinking Wikipedia editors and readers", unless we want to exclude the Nazis (for example) from the definition. For at the time (and at other times) , anti-semitism, racism and homophobia were by no means the preserve of a select few in Germany, or indeed in Europe or the West as a whole.

Thirdly the more modern groups certainly do not in general advocate hate hostility or violence (with the exception of vigilante gorups). They are more likely to indicate a perceived cause and effect relationship, and propose a "solution", both parts are likely to be percieved as advocating hate, and may indeed have that (or fear and resentment) as a subtext.

Comments?

Rich Farmbrough 15:01, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree somewhat. Nowadays the nuances are finer, and hate groups make big efforts to hide behind a façade of normalcy that is more scary than one of open hostility and violence. --Zappaz 16:35, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How about "whose policies are to a significant extent focussed upon taking action against one or more groups of people or organizations, based on ideological or pragmatic beliefs relating to the negative impact of the target group on society, or on fear and resentment fo the target group." (Still not happy with this, but for what it's worth.) Rich Farmbrough 19:10, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for making a suggestion for an improvement, but that wording is a bit too vague. "Taking action" is such a nice phrase that it could apply to any group, such as a consumer advocacy organization. Hate groups seem to be focussed more specifically on violence, either implied or explicit, and hateful speech. Since the ADL and SPLC are the primary hate group researchers, let me see what definitions they've got on their sites. Those may help serve as a basis for our definition. -Cheers, -Willmcw 00:05, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

All hate groups have beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics. This list was compiled using hate group publications and websites, citizen and law enforcement reports, field sources and news reports. The Center lists only organizations and their chapters known to be active during 2003. Activities may include criminal acts, marches, rallies, speeches, meetings, leafleting or publishing. Websites that appear to be merely the work of a single individual, rather than the publication of a group, are not included on the list. Listing here does not imply that a group advocates or engages in violence or other criminal activity. http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp

The terms hate violence and hate crimes first appeared in the Final Report of the Attorney General's Commission on Racial, Ethnic, Religious and Minority Violence issued in April, 1986. It defined hate violence to be:

Any act of intimidation, harassment, physical force or threat of physical force directed against any person, or gamely, or their property or advocate, motivated either in whole or in part by hostility to their real or perceived race, ethnic background, religious belief, sex, age, disability, or sexual orientation, with the intention of causing fear or intimidation, or to deter the free exercise or enjoyment of any rights or privileges secured by the Constitution or the laws of the United State of California whether or not performed under color of law.

When hate violence is punishable under a criminal statute it is a hate crime. It should be noted that civil statutes (as opposed to criminal statutes) may provide relief for some types of hate violence.http://www.cahro.org/html/definition.html

Hate Group—An organization whose primary purpose is to promote animosity, hostility, and malice against persons belonging to a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin which differs from that of the members of the organization, e.g., the Ku Klux Klan, American Nazi Party. Hate Crime Data Collection Guidelines http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#hate

...[I]ndividuals or groups that, in the opinion of the author, advocate violence against, separation from, defamation of, deception about, or hostility towards others based upon race, religion, gender, ethnicity, or sexual orientation. -http://www.bcpl.net/~rfrankli/hatedir.htm

[edit] White supremacist apologetics?

Hate_group#.22Hate_group.22_as_a_characterization Seems to be white supremacism apologetics by anon. Not so sure if it is (a) suitable, and (b) NPOV. Seems to me to as advocating to "normalize" obvious hate groups. --Zappaz 03:51, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I think the KKK is still a hate group and that the phrase "during Reconstruction" should be removed. -Mihir

[edit] Animal Liberation Front

Re: "Some advocates have applied [the term 'hate group'] to some radical activists who engage in questionable and often illegal methods to achieve their goals, such as ... the Animal Liberation Front." Could the editor who wrote this supply a reference, please? Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 02:00, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, there are many references, SlimVirgin, just Google ecoterrorism, for example. Some examples: ADL [5], Other [6], an FBI report [7], etc. --Zappaz 00:25, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

The citations listed do not directly refer to ALF as a hate group. They call it an extremist or terrorist group. Are those the same thing? -Willmcw 02:05, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
I also can't see any reference to the ALF as a hate group. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:08, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

I do not recall if I added that sentence, but I am certain I have read about mentions of the ALF and the ELF as hate groups. I think it was in a communication from the SPL (Southern Poverty Law Center a hate-group watch organization). I also remember a rebuttal from the ALF and some other apologetics. I will keep looking.. A reference for "Operation Rescue" (in the same sentence): [8]. --Zappaz 04:07, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the ALF until a credible source is found, and I added a link to skeptictank. Is that considered to be a credible source? SlimVirgin (talk) 04:19, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cult awareness network

The article says,

"The Cult Awareness Network (CAN) was sued out of existence after being found by a judge to be a hate group."

Can somebody provide references for this. I am aware that it went bankrupt because of its referrals to Rick Ross who deprogrammed/kidnapped people but I am not aware that the judge called it a hate group. Andries 15:55, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I think until a source is found we should remove this. -Willmcw 02:26, May 12, 2005 (UTC)


This article is clearly partisan and might as well be written by the ADL.

[edit] Hate rock and paganism

In the last 20 years, white supremacists were attracted to a particular kind of pagan religion known as Odinism. The religion originated from tribal myths and theology of the pre-Christian Germanic and Scandinavian tribes, once had a cult devoted to Odin or Wotan, the god of war, hate and death.

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, German nationalists and rightists experimented with Odinism and entered the National Socialist Party (later known as Nazis) in the 1920's and 30s. Prominent Nazi leaders like Erick Ludenknopf, Alfred Rosenberg and the infamous Heinrich Himmler are pagan adherents.

The Nazi-pagan connection reappeared in the 1970's by American practitioners Steven McNallen and David Lane, also a self-claimed neo-Nazi helped create a racially divisive version of the pagan faith by the 1980's.

During the "pagan revival" across Europe from the 1960's to the early 1990's, while most pagan adherents observed a more pacifist, counter-cultural faith, came a development of morbid ultra-violent and fascist-inspired Odinists, mainly centered in Norway.

In 1993, a music genre by the Norwegian rock band Burzum combined gothic, satanic, death and black metals that contained racist (as in tribal, primal or viking themes) and anti-Semitic, anti-Christian and anarchist lyrics.

Later that year, thousands of Burzum followers rioted across Scandinavia and burned down churches, police stations and Jewish owned properties, in part to Burzum's anti-social, racial pagan messages. Burzum's lead singer Varg Vikernes was charged for a murder and imprisoned in 1994 after brief worldwide attention and he remains in a Norway jail.

European countries guarantee the freedom of religion, but are restrictive of the type of music Burzum produces as racist, criminal, and anti-Christian, as Norway passed laws banned that music genre (the sale of, not private ownership of those recordings).

In the U.S. this racial variety of pagan faiths thrive in the state and federal prisons, as in the Odinic Rite Ministry serves 500 inmates in 10 states. Prison guards are deeply concerned on the activities of Odinists may become hostile with white supremacist prison gangs.

The anti-cult movement affiliated with neo-Nazis and hate groups seem to accepted Odinism, Theodism, and Arianism (although unrelated to paganism), a revived early Christian movement of the Roman Empire has declared Jesus Christ not entirely a god, but of man.

Paganism can be a harmless alternative for some persons with deep feelings to nature and pre-modernity of a time before Christianity arrived in Europe, but the particular type (Odinism or Wotanism) is growing and arose from the underground as a new hate group. + 207.200.116.13 03:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SPLW as "white supremacist group"

'Several white supremacist groups have founded Web sites dedicated to attacking their perceived enemies, such as Ken McVay, founder of the Nizkor Project; or Morris Dees, founder of the Southern Poverty Law Center. These web sites, which gather "dirt" on their targets and claim to reveal the "truth," have been known to resort to slander and libel to attack their foes.'

Contraversial methods aside, isn't it incorrect to label the SPLW as a "white supremacist group"?

It sounds to me as if Nizkor and SPLC are being described as perceived enemies of white supremacist groups. But the phrasing is not great .... --FOo 17:23, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] al-Qaeda

I removed the following sentence:

Sometimes Al-Qaeda, an Islamic terrorist organization, is classified as a hate group.[9]

because the citation does not support the assertion. While the title of the linked article is "Hate Club", the text of the piece nowhere uses the term "hate group", or even the word "hate". This sentence cannot stand with such specious backing; if it's to go back in it needs to cite something that explicitly makes the point being claimed. (It should also go in a more appropriate section, perhaps #Hate group" as a characterization, instead of being jammed randomly between two unrelated sentences in the first section.) —Charles P. (Mirv) 22:27, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Defamation League

Duh. The article lists ADL as an org fighting hate groups. That may have been true some eons ago. The ADL has been a zionist-fundie hate group since at least 1968.

Yeah, ask them if Arabs should have equal rights in Israel. Haha.

Also check out tolerance.org and SPLcenter.org, both web pages are operated by the Southern Poverty Law Center, experts of hate groups and the white power movement. Since 1965, the SPLC fought racism, discrimination, violence and intimidation of African Americans in the Southern U.S. and other racial or social minorities across the nation. The SPLC and ADL contacts the federal and state governments to inform the latest on hate incidents. + 207.200.116.13 09:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pro-Hate

I hear this a lot, "I hate hate groups". What the Hell is this? Hypocritical. Personally I hate religion, So I'm in a hate group. If you hate me, are you not in a hate group for saying I'm wrong for my beliefs?

"Hate group" does not mean a set of people who happen to hate something. It means an organization advocating open hostility toward some sector of the populace. So, for instance, if you simply detest religion, you aren't "in a hate group". If you join with others to burn churches down or go around chasing religious people out of the public square, you might be.
Likewise, if you express detestation for hate groups by not joining any, you aren't "in a hate group" against hate groups. If you get together with your pals and lynch all the Klansmen in town, you might be. --FOo 04:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edited article

The article reaks with POV. How is "These groups work by feeding on the ignorant" a non POV? Ignorant according to who? You? Please work to comply with NPOV policy.

  • We're not likely to listen to such admonitions from editors who say Jewish Zionists do control the mainstream media in their edit comments, y'know. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 05:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] put up NPOV disclaimer

These groups have hate hotlines, Internet websites and chatrooms, and hate propaganda distribution networks designed to transform the fears of the economically challenged, the paranoid and the ignorant into violence, and to brutalize minorities and vandalize their property

There are so many things wrong with the whole page let along this part of the article. Anyone who joined the KKK is economically challenged, paranoid and ignorant? Do you know that Presidents and Senators belonged to the KKK and at one point in time had 5 million official members? IF anyone is ignorant I think it is the person who wrote this article.

71.131.245.179 02:14, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Oddly, Wikipedia treats hate groups as if they are a bad thing. That's fairly non-neutral, I'll admit. It's not going to change, though; "hate is bad" seems to trump some other principles here. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
  • If this article is not resolved to a more balanced viewpoint I am going to raise hell. Please lets find a solution that everyone can agree upon without sacrificing the credibility of wikipedia by shoving ignorant opinions down peoples throats. Lets present the article in a respectable way.

Jerry Jones 07:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

  • It's not likely we're going to find a "solution that everyone can agree upon" when "everyone" includes racists and anti-semites. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This article is very biased against hate groups, and should be revised. ATD 18:39, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

No it's not, hate groups will receive negative attention and public opinion unfavorable to them. Some love the attention that gets the hate groups bigger or stronger. Historically, the KKK (the second version thrived in the early 1920's) influenced state politics in Oregon, Indiana, Kansas, and Oklahoma, until politicans fought them out of power through anti-corruption probes. + 207.200.116.13 09:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Racism in the Republican party"

This link: "Racism in the Republican party", was unrelated, biased, and flat out misleading. The title was the worst/most offensive part, but the article itself is irrelevent as well. Deleted it. This was the article, if you're curious: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/29/AR2006012900642_pf.html 68.166.38.31 06:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] hate article

violent groups as holocaust deniers? the hater lacks self worth? did you forget that HATE is the oldest feeling in the whole damn fucking world? this article is stupid and tendencious, and you're just inspiring hate and ridicule against those people. it's a terrible terrible crap, it's impossible to think the reader won't notice the personal opinions inserted in the text.

Well it hard to find a good thing in hate groups to, You can say something very well know from psychitrists that have talked to these people and say it, but you cant back up a good side of hate groups! Theres no sitting on the fence of hate! What do you have that could at all be impartial to hate groups?

[edit] Hate group as a label section

There isn't a source for the statement "In turn, a number of nrms..." so I changed the sentence to reflect the one nrm's claim, and changed the link for Ex-premies to the external website because the internal link to "Ex-premies" is the Criticism of Prem Rawat article, not an article about ex-premies as the main subject. I'm open to discussing this change. Sylviecyn 12:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I note the revision of my revision. Here's the sentence:
A number of new religious movements have used the term hate group to label critics: for example, Elan Vital, the organization supporting Prem Rawat refers thusly to its vocal critics, the "ex-premies", as does the Foundation against Intolerance of Religious Minorities, associated with the Adidam NRM [7].
There's no source that backs up that "a number of nrms..." are labeled that way. If other NRMs do label critics as hate-groups, then they should be listed with a source. Also, I couldn't find any mention on FIRM that supports the statement concerning ex-premies: "as does Foundation against..." If I can't find it on their website, then the casual reader definitely won't be able to find it -- I searched the website yesterday. Please provide the actual citation (webpage) to substantiate the claim, otherwise, the sentence will have to be revised to reflect that only one NRM calls ex-premies a hate-group, and the FIRM reference will have to go, too. Thanks Sylviecyn 12:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
FIRM does not refer to ex-premies. It refers to the persecution of practicioners of new religious movements by apostates and anti-cultists. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:37, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I have clarified this in my last edit. I have restored the wikilink to "Ex-premies", as it it pertinent. If your opinion is that the "ex-premies" is not the main subject of the article to which it redirects, you can request a Redirect for deletion WP:RFD. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:44, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
You started the article "Criticism of Prem Rawat" by using the title "Ex-premies" and it was changed to the more general "Criticism of Prem Rawat. But, back this is sentence. My main concern right now is that this sentence is still quite awkward, vague, and not adequately sourced. You have not provided a clear source that backs up "A number of NRMs..." by using the name of at least one other NRM that labels it's critics "hate-group," and/or a specific, appropriate source that does the same. Otherwise, it should read "One NRM...Elan Vital..." In addition, there are hundreds of articles and links on the firmstand.org site. Which page on that website specifically mentions critics of NRMs being called hate-group by the NRM? There isn't even a mention of the word "hate" in Adidam article. It's not enough to direct the reader only to the main page of Adidam's Firmstand website based on your phrasing and expect the reader to do all the work. Where does this group make that claim? This needn't turn into a revert war over my simple request for cites and more specificity, especially if they're available, as you state. Sylviecyn 15:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
You are right. I checked their site and FIRM does not use the terms "hate group" specifically, although they describe the "prejudice, both overt and subtle, that are currently being practiced openly against many religious minorities" as well as what they considere discrimination and religious persecution by apostates and anti-cultitsts. I have removed the text related to FIRM and made some additional edits. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:27, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about commies?

Communist and far-left parties shall be listed here too. Instead of providing a real solution to the economic gap, Marxism promotes [[hate]] between the rich and the poor, or those who consider themselves and others as such. So, it's easy for frustrated and lazy people to disguise their own envy and make it appear as a desire for equality. Commies promote revenge, (a pretty absurd one) but they call it "social justice" They, in fact, do the same things the article lists:

"Dehumanizing or demonizing the target" Call the target "rich people", "imperialism", "bureaucracy" or what ever you want (the target is so flexible that may adapt to anyone's needs)it is the enemy that does not allow Mankind become the "new man"

"Conspiracy theories, possibly not well backed up or referenced" Everything's is capitalism's fault, it's the worst disgrace, the root fo all evil

"Claiming to be a minority that speaks for a silent majority" That's the way every single communist party defines itself

The demonstration is, hence, quite clear.

So you define what these communist groups advocate and attack your own assumptions, sounds like a straw man to me. - Quirk 11:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
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