Talk:Hamitic

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 napoleon 1.1 additions by HV 2 Hams children 3 afrocentrists 4 Definition 5 hamites/african ethnic groups 6 Israel 7 Phut or Punt? 8 Ethiopia 9 NPOV issues

[edit] napoleon

The text makes the following rather odd claim about Napoleon's activities in Egypt:

"With the "discovery" of Ancient Egyptian civilization European academics were faced with an uncomfortable fact: as far as they could tell, ancient egyptians had been dark skinned Africans, and yet they were still capable of great works and an advanced civilization, long before those things had existed in Europe."

Firstly, the Egyptians were credited great works long before Napoleon. There was a tradition in the 18thC of crediting Egyptians with mystical and intellectual wisdom, and graeco-roman references to Egyptian achievements were very well known. So Napoleon discovered nothing new as such, just initiated modern scientific and historical study of Egypt.

Secondly, why would Napoleon and his scholars assume the Egyptians were 'dark skinned Africans'? They had no reason to assume the Ancient Egyptians looked much different from modern Egyptians. The skin-pigmentation used in Egyptian art is not especially dark. I know of no evidence uncovered by Napoleon's forces tht suggested the Ancient Egyptians were darker than one would expect. This passage seems to be tainted with Afrocentrism. I am altering it. Paul Barlow

Yes, Egyptian accomplishments were well known in Europe before 1798, and there was some scholarly interest in the subject. Many people even speculated on the subject of Egyptian race, so you were right to clarify the article. However, the French invasion sparked a marked growth in interest and study in Egypt. According to one article I have read, in the early years of the 19th century there was an explosion of interest in the "race question" in Egypt, with most Europeans tryign to prove that Egyptians were not negroes in any way.

Ancient Egyptians were "dark skinned" in relation to white Europeans who considered themselves above all other races, and at the time considered most Africans to be more or less one of a kind. Egypt in the 19th century had a wide mix of races living in it, so any logical anaylisis would indicate that similar people lived there for many centuries. I think that "afrocentrist" might be a bit extreme in describing the article. Nonetheless, thanks for some clarifications.

Peregrine981 23:47, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

i've seen vague references to a proto-hamitic language. does anyone here know anything about this?

The references must have been very vague or very dated. There is no such thing as proto-Hamitic, there is proto-Semito-Hamitic, although the term proto-Afro-Asiatic is preferred. Read the Hamitic and Afro-Asiatic articles properly.

PatGallacher 13:20, 2005 Feb 27 (UTC)

i know that proto-languages tend to be known through reconstruction- which is a very hypothetical thing- so how can it be absolutely determined that there wasn't a proto-hamitic language? Gringo300 01:21, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

There would be a proto-Hamitic if there was a genuine "Hamitic" group that had evolved from a common ancestor-language. The point is that linguists these days do not recognise the existence of such a group. Paul B 10:13, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] additions by HV

HV has added the following:

"In Russia an equivalent to the Hamitic Theory came up: the Japhetitic [SIC] Theory by Nikolaj J. Marr, which explained the origin of the peoples of the Caucasus as descendants of Noah's son Japheth. This theory was very popular even in Soviet times and it was likewise used to establish a hierarchy of the peoples in Russia in terms of civilization."

I'm removing this because I don't think it's relevant to the topic of "Hamitic". The only simililarity is terminology derived from Noah's sons. Marr's "Japhetic theory" was never about race, and it only used the Biblical name as a label. After all it was the official 'Marxist' linguistic model in Soviet Russia until the 30s, so it's hardly based on belief in the Bible! Instead I'm creating a new page on Japhetic theory (linguistics).

I think aome of HV's other additions need a bit of tweaking too. Paul B 13:15, 20 March 2005 (UTC)

I don't think its inappropriate to mention the Japhetic theory in the article... any particular reason why it was completely removed? Peregrine981 13:13, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

As you may have noticed, I accidentally saved the page half way through writing my explanation. Sorry. See above. I don't think the two theories are at all 'equivalent' Paul B 13:20, 20 March 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hams children

Now if I am not mistaken Ham is the father of the black race, japhet of the white and Shem of the Semities. So why is it that in this artcle the blackness of say Cannanties and Egyptians is played down compared to say those in punt or cush. Someone here may not necessarily agree with what the bible says but thats what it says.

The Bible says nothing of the kind. It does not say anything about "black," "white," or "Semitic" races. It does not say anything about races at all. john k 06:37, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] afrocentrists

the trend here to blame everything that connotes ancient egyptians with sub saharab africans of today as mere 'afrocentrism' is disturbing. africans come in all colors and types, quite literally. namibians, congolese et al do not resemble ethiopians and people from somalia. apart from north africans and the sudanese who have mixed in with arabs throughout the centuries, there seems to be a discrepancy in physical features within africans that is not due to mass migration or intermarrying. the same with swedes and the portugese. that said, any reference to ancient egyptians being dark has nothing to do with a vast conspiracy by afrocentrists, the accusations here are nothing short of pathetic. ancient egyptians could well have resembled the abyssinians. ancient abyssianian art typified themselves as being taller, healthier with straight hair in contrast to their defeated foes, some dipicted them as being lighter as well. studying ancient drawings and validating them as a scientific fact is very undergraduate.

Yes, of course there is wide diversity in African populations. Much of that is due to migrations, of both native populations within the continent and of outsiders coming in at various times. Human populations have continuously been on the move over history. This article attempted to explain how the term 'Hamitic' has been used over time to try to make sense of these difference, and how in particular it has been deeply implicated racist assumptions. My comment above about Afrocentrism were specifically in response to an earlier version of the article which claimed that Napoleon's troops were disturbed by the fact that the Egyptians were "dark skinned Africans", as opposed, presumably to light skinned Africans. There is no evidence of this that I know. Paul B 19:06, 9 June 2005 (UTC)

Evidence to the contrary is debatable as well.--Ezeu 10:51, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

What evidence to the contrary of what? Paul B 11:16, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

Would it be accurate to say that the term "Hamitic" was applied to speakers of the non-Semitic and Southern Semitic Afro-Asiatic languages, to speakers of Nilo-Saharan languages, and to those who appeared to be ethnically related to the aforementioned (like the Tutsi)? john k 15:30, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it was ever applied in toto to Nilo-Saharan speakers, but I may be wrong. Different authors used the term in different ways. In general it was as you say. The most widely accepted use was to refer to to non-Semitic A-A speakers. Some authors proposed a wider "Hamitic" family. As a "race", the term usually meant something like "black Africans who look as though they might be related to Berber or Semitic peoples" Paul B 15:45, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

This should perhaps be made clearer. Like many of our articles on outdated racialist schemes, this one spends more time explaining how the term was racist and specious than it does explaining how it was actually used. Obviously, it should be explained that it was racist and specious, but we should also have a better sense of what the actual theory was. john k 16:17, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] hamites/african ethnic groups

there are thousands of african ethnic groups. i really think the article's references to ham and justifications for slavery are vastly oversimplified. it is not a simple subject, any way you look at it.

Gringo300 15:42, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Israel

Israel is important for the obvious reason that the whole saga in Genesis is from the point of view of Israel - it's about explaining the origins of various "nations" that have significance to ancient Israel. This whole secton is about the Iraelites. Later usages of "Hamitic" are rather more defined by European geo-ethnic perspectives, so the whole Canaanite/Phoenecian aspect just disappears. The emphasis on the notion that Hamites = South of Israel is part of the explanation for the shift between the biblical usage and the later usage. Paul B 01:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I see your point of view but many people don't believe that the Genesis or Torah was written by man some believe it comes from G-d therefore it has a universal point of view and would not be fair to take one particular point of view say israeli over a arab one for example. Plus Phut or Punt mean Libya or Somalia which went to algeria and tunisia which is north of Israel so not totally accurate. Also Israel was part of Canaan before the semitic people came so it can't really be south of israel considering canaan went into a bit of syria.

Just because "some people" believe it to have been written by God, does not mean that we should take that view in the article. It should describe beliefs, not endorse them. Anyway, even if true it would not alter the fact that Israel is is the central position from which other locations are described. You are right about Phut/Put being usually identified with Lybia. I was about to change that. Paul B 01:27, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Well jews believe it is written by G-d and many chrsitians don't so which view do we take? None the less describing where these are in relation to Israel doesn't help for this reason. Israel is inside Canaan before the semitic people came according to the article on wiki anyways so it is not a good way of describing everywhere. It is like describing the Roman empire in realtionship to Austria its not very helpful because it is inside of it. I don't see why we just don't use the borders. Sorry about editing didn't see your thing to come here.

Some Jews and some Chrtistians believe it was written by God, other Jews and Christians hold that it was 'inspired' by God, but is not to be understood literally. I don't really follow what you are saying in the rest of your message. I don't know what you mean when you write "Israel is inside Canaan before the semitic people came." Do you mean that the land we now call "Israel" was part of the land of "Canaan" before it was taken over by the Israelites? Well I guess that's true, but I'm not sure how it helps. The term "Israel" in phrases like "south of Israel" is just being used to define an area of land for the reader as clearly as possible. Paul B 01:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Phut or Punt?

Some bibles use different names so should we just put a slash.

I don't think it helps to put Punt because that leads to confusion with the Egyptian concept of the Land of Punt. It links to a disambiguation page for Punt that has no biblical connections. Phut connects with the article of that name. The only alternate spelling it gives is Put. Paul B 01:27, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you but look http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0838891.html It seems as if there is no clear cut answer

[edit] Ethiopia

The reference to Ethiopia has gone, and it had gone before you reverted. Please read the text first. In any case Wikipedia naming conventions are clear. We use the commonest names in order to make the text clear to readers. "Ethiopia" is not a "eurocentic" name, or at least it's not really relevant whether it is or not. It's just the current English language name for a particular area of Africa. Readers need a word that clearly locates the place being described. Anyway, you can edit away as much as you like from now on, since I'm going to bed! Paul B 01:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV issues

This article is too one-sided and biased towards conclusive thought of negativity towards the concept. Hamitic peoples are no more or less legitimate than Semitic and Japhetic peoples. Why insert POV against it, with no due equal proportion of proponents' sides? The Bible merely states that Africans are descended from Noah's son Ham. Maybe there is some racist motivation for excluding Black people from Noah's progeny, but it is clear that Noah's children are on all sides of the Mediterranean. Hasbro 08:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I understand your point. The article covers several different meanings of the term. The Biblical meaning is one, but since Ham is the "bad" son, it clearly has negative implications, which were later elaborated by theologians. The later concept of a "Hamitic race" is largely unrelated to the Bible. Paul B 08:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The tone of the article is thoroughly negative, which explains the POV dispute. There should not be any value judgement attached to the term, or its usage--that is left up to the readers. Hasbro 09:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Value judgements have always attached to the term, so that's really part of the meat of the article. Ascribing Hamitic identity to people has been suffused with value judgements. Describing those judgements and noting the opinions of critics does not make an article POV. If notable contrary views are left out there would be grounds to object. Paul B 10:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The article contends that the usage of the term has always been negative, inaccurate and that is why Hamitic is no longer widespread. The article fails to address the rise of secular revisionism. The term "Indo-European" is a secular social science interpretation of the Judeo-Christian "Japhetic". The reasons why we don't call "Negroids" Hamites today is for the same reason a White person can't call them "Niggers". That doesn't disqualify the subject addressed by the term. They just come up with new, more politically correct words and names. Hasbro 10:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Indo-European is a linguistic concept that arose completely independently of the Bible. Read Jones' paper on the subject. It's linked on his page (William Jones (philologist)) He tried to fit it into Biblical stories - hence the temporary adoption of the term Japhetic, but the basis for IE had nothing to do with the Bible. In fact it arose from contact with non-Christian Hindu culture. The article clearly states that at one time Hamitic was a positive term ("A "Hamitic race" was also identified, referring to those Africans whom Europeans considered "advanced", or most similar to themselves and to Semitic peoples."). The reason that 'Hamite' is no longer used has nothing to do with the reason why 'nigger' is considered to be pejorative. Paul B 10:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I wonder why you refuse to look at the term without setting a value, which is why I wrote this complaint on the talk page in the first place. Hamite, to me, is a neutral word describing the innumerable descendents of Ham. That is the literal, substance-based definition of Hamites. Anything more (value assessments on certain people postulated as Hamites) tends to step into contraversial, argumentative territory. What I meant about the Indo-European thing is that old terms with Biblical basis are now replaced, with a lot of political correctness and cultural perceptions the driving forces behind that. Hasbro 11:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I really don't understand what you are getting at. The article refers to the range of values that have attached to the term. There is one sentence about the term Hamitic being perceived as pejorative by some people. As it happens I did not add the sentence, and some people manage to find almost any term pejorative if they want to. But in this case there is a rationale for that view, since many negative connotations have been attached to sons of Ham. See curse of Ham. However, the ethnolinguistic meaning was at first either neutral or positive, as the article clearly states. The linguistic usage was specific and technical. We have to look at the history of that model and see how it was intertwined with racial hierarchies of the time. It is that specific aspect of the topic that has been characterised as the "Hamitic myth". Paul B 12:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

If you read curse of Ham, it should explain that it is really the curse of Canaan, none of the other sons was ever cursed acording to scripture. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 13:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I find the claim that "The term Hamitic itself is sometimes considered pejorative" a bit difficult to fathom. The term is not in common use any longer, and has never been in common use at all, so negative connotations notwithstanding, I doubt the term caused offence then (in a general sense), let alone today. And as Paul notes above, that is the only sentence that is reason for any POV concerns, so I've removed it. --Ezeu 19:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I haven't looked at this article for a while. It needs a rewrite - that includes the negative use of Hamitic and the more positive uses. Paul B 18:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)