Talk:Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia/Archive2

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Article name: HRM and Halifax, Nova Scotia redirect

One great big mess

We now have a incoherent collection of Halifax/HRM-related articles. The History of Halifax page is very well-written (though lacking a reference to its role in the Titanic disaster), but the page Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city) is a mess. I can repair the grammar and typos but I’ve neither the time nor energy to re-structure it. The page appears to have been badly mauled by the frequently-blocked contributor Matthvm/Patycat.

I thought that we (the local Wikipedians) had a reasonable solution to the “name that city” problem — the HRM page would deal with the greater metropolitan area and link to various sub-articles (Halifax Harbour and so on.) Pages for Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city), Dartmouth, Bedford and the rest should be small and strictly focused on local information. Contributors should ask themselves, “Is this item of significance to the metropolitan area? (e.g., The Halifax explosion) Or is this item only important within a local context? (e.g., Peter Kelly was the last mayor of Bedford)

If in doubt, bring the matter up on the Talk Page before taking a chainsaw to an already reasonably well-written page.--OldCommentator 13:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

It's also high time that someone archived the older material on this page. I'd do it myself if I knew how.--OldCommentator 13:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

What is to be done

Getting back to the question of reorganization, we should try and come up with a vision for what these articles should look like.

First, as someone from out-of-province, I want to understand something. What is, legally and technically, the current capital of Nova Scotia? Is it HRM, or is it the old city Halifax within HRM? I think it's the former, and my past comments are based on that, because everything else I've seen suggests that the old city no longer exists in a legal sense.

Next, I've written before about "moving" this article to Halifax, Nova Scotia, but I'm not really set on that — that is, I don't think simply renaming this article to Halifax, Nova Scotia would solve everything by itself. I suppose my main goal is to see Halifax, Nova Scotia be an article of some kind (not a redirect) about the present capital of Nova Scotia.

Here are some possibilities:

  1. Move Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia to Halifax, Nova Scotia, and include a lead in like what Ouuplas suggested before, e.g. "Halifax, Nova Scotia, formally the Halifax Regional Municipality, is the capital of the Canadian province of Nova Scotia." There are then two possibilities of what to do with Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city):
    1. Leave it at Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city) and make it an article about the current community of Halifax within the HRM. I would think most historical information about the city before the HRM should go in Halifax, Nova Scotia as that would be more prominent.
    2. Move it to History of Halifax, and make it entirely about the history of Halifax the city before the HRM.
  2. Like what WayeMason suggested in December, make Halifax, Nova Scotia a sort of extended disambiguation page between Halifax Regional Municipality, Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city) (the former city and the current community within the HRM), and the constituent communities of the HRM.

Needless to say, the articles about communities inside HRM, like Dartmouth, Nova Scotia can remain untouched (just like Dundas, Ontario or Ancaster, Ontario still exist now.)

I found the comment by WayeMason above from last August on the difference between Halifax and HRM to provide the most compelling reasons I've yet read for not equating "HRM" with "Halifax". In particular, the fact that people from the HRM use "Halifax" exclusively to refer to the former city and HRM to refer to the municipality.

This is probably common for recent amalgamations (certainly in my hometown of Dundas people use "Hamilton" to refer exclusively to the former neighbouring city before amalgamation, yet the whole amalgamated city resides in WP at Hamilton, Ontario). But precedent isn't a leash: if the HRM creation was indeed more of a "marriage of equals" than other recent amalgamations in Canada, then a different structure is called for.

I'm currently leaning towards #2, but I could be swayed in different directions. As I said, what I most want to see is that Halifax, Nova Scotia not be a redirect. --Saforrest 20:14, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Leave it alone --20060715 21:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with this sort of behaviour. If you actually read what I wrote above, you'd see that option #2 addresses the issue of clearly distinguishing HRM from Halifax, which seems to be your main objection.
From your other contributions, e.g. to Nova Scotia highway articles, you seem to actually want to contribute to the Wikipedia project. So why don't you put the sockpuppet accounts aside and discuss the issue rationally here? --Saforrest 00:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Why are true comments that are negetive towards renaming been deleted against Wikipedia policy ?--JO 10:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you're referring to this. I deleted that because 1) the reply was to a two-year old comment, 2) you replied in the middle of the other person's comment, possibly causing people to confuse your text and the original one, and 3) you've made your opinion more than clear elsewhere. --Saforrest 17:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
A couple of observations from an outsider to the discussions so far:
  1. It seems pretty clear that the Halifax Regional Municipality is NOT synonymous with the place commonly known as Halifax. There is some overlap, but Halifax the place is distinct from HRM, the governmental entity.
  2. Personally, I'd be inclined to give preference to the more specific place over the governmental entity for the name "Halifax, Nova Scotia", with very clear and prominent disambiguating links to HRM. From what I've seen of very casual browsing, the name HRM is used to describe the governmental authority--so I do not think it is appropriate to move HRM to Halifax, NS. I suppose that having Halifax, NS as some sort of disambiguation page *might* work, but from how it is described above, I think there might be a lot of unnecessary overlap with the HRM article.
So in sum, I think it makes more sense for article about the specific place to be at Halifax, NS with HRM staying where it is and with clear disambiguation statements in both. If not that, then Halifax, NS should probably be a disambiguation page, although that seems a bit over the top to distinguish between two closely related articles. older ≠ wiser 14:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The way I understand is that HRM is not the place but the region were the muncipal services are provided with the boundaries of the old County of Halifax which by the way does not exist anymore .Halifax is a "place" or community and any Nova Scotia Map and road signs separates it from Dartmouth ,Bedford, Sheet Harbour and etc. Technically if HRM wanted to and problaby would not do ,would succeed from Nova Scotia given that it has a population greater than PEI . If you travel through the region you would find that the Regional Council put up signs stating e.g. "Shad Bay community of Halifax Regional "Municipality Meaning HRM is a group of indiviual places which differ from each other .

Thanks for the response. What exactly, is the formal name of the capital of Nova Scotia? Is it "Halifax" or the HRM? --Saforrest 06:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
It the community of Halifax as far as I know --66.110.6.119 13:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Friends and collegues, sorry I have been gone for so long... I do live event management stuff and work all summer... after the Halifax Pop Explosion is over I will be back at the same level as last spring. So, moving forward....

1 - the capital is "Halifax" on old documents, and increasingly "HRM" in new with caveats, see below.

2 - HRM is the legal entity so even if we have a Halifax Nova Scotia page, we still need an HRM page, because it is absolutely incorrect to have the government, culture, media stuff for HRM on the Halifax or any other page.

3 - I read recently that Nova Scotia officially has no CITIES. None! Because we have shire style county level governments. I want to point out that while this is confusing because it is somewhat unique, its also the facts. We have no city here.

This is an error which the current system of page-naming only serves to perpetuate ("former city", etc.). There were cities before there were any legally incorporated, documented, or defined entities. There are, it is correct to say, no "legal cities", or no "official cities". But it would be simply dumb to wander through the province and conclude "Hmm, no cities here." There is at least one city inside the boundaries of Halifax county, whether or not it has any legal status. (These kind of cities tend to be vaguely bounded, so I won't guess whether there are one, two, or three.) "Halifax, Nova Scotia" should be an article about the city which formerly was formerly a legal entity and capital of Nova Scotia, and is now merely a (roughly defined) cultural entity inside the new "municipality" capital. This "former city" stuff is an aberration.

4 - I think as I have said elsewhere in the past that eventually Spryfield, Fairview and Rockingham areas will not be refered to as a part of "old Halifax" or the "Capital District" or whatever, but that is for the public to decide, we are simply not there yet, and while it may come some day it is not our job on wikipedia to anticipate it.

5 - Talking about the Capital District, that is the name used by the province and HRM for the peninsula area. So the capital of Nova Scotia might arguable be the Capital District of Halifax Regional Municipality.

6 - to me the issue has to be restricted to whether we move the former city page onto Halifax, Nova Scotia, or create a disambig page at Halifax, Nova Scotia. If you read the discussion on former city, you see I moved it because people on wikipedia who are not familiar with the issues started changing the Halifax, Nova Scotia page into a "city page" right away. It was extremely confusing, and we ended up with a tonne of duplication between this page and Halifax, Nova Scotia...

In conclusion, I want to remind everyone need to report on what is actually there. What is actually there is very confusing. We need to describe what is actually there as clearly as possible, but unfortunately, to be factually accurate requires presenting this confusing situation that is not easily comparable or understandable to someone unfamiliar with recent municipal history in Nova Scotia...

Its good to be back... WayeMason 23:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

"Regional Municipality" part of name

Well this discussion page has become quite a mess in the past few months... Are there any suggestions for how to organize the various threads in a coherent fashion? I'm sure that I'm not the only one finding it very difficult to follow the discussion! I haven't been as active in Wikipedia in recent months but do try to check in on some articles from time to time.

I also hesitate to jump back into this entire debate as WayeMason and I (along with several others) were heavily involved in it during the last go-around (see the top of this discussion page). A couple of things jump out at me that should bear repeating, so here goes:

1) There is only one municipal unit within Halifax County (aside from 2 First Nation reserves) and that is the HRM. All others have ceased to exist as incorporated communities, however their names live on, given the multi-century history of some of these settlements. I think this settles the argument about what entity is the capital of the province - it is HRM, 100%.

2) The official name given for the community is HRM, not "Halifax". Politicians, media and residents alike, collectively refer to it as HRM when describing the area, so it's not a mere government body. HRM takes its name from Halifax County, not the former city. The model for this situation was the Cape Breton Regional Municipality amalgamation immediately prior. If Halifax County had been called something other than "Halifax", we wouldn't be having this discussion right now! :-)

3) We (WayeMason, myself and others) chose to redirect Halifax, NS to the HRM article since so many edits relating to HRM were finding their way onto the Halifax, NS article - this was wrong as the HRM comprises a far, far larger and more geographically (and culturally and economically) diverse area than the former city of Halifax ever did.

4) I don't really have any suggestions for how this situation could be improved... The name is cumbersome - agreed. It's the name being used by the municipality, so unless one writes to Mayor Kelly (the former mayor of the town of Bedford, which doesn't exist any longer, and who is an ardent supporter of the HRM concept) requesting the official name be modified, we really don't have much of a choice.

Plasma east 20:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


This is further to my point regarding the Cape Breton Regional Municipality (aka CBRM) and how it relates to this discussion of the naming of the HRM article.
CBRM takes its name from Cape Breton County, and aside from 2 First Nations, is the only municipal unit within that county - exactly the same model that HRM is based upon. Note that HRM takes its name from Halifax County, and NOT the former city of Halifax. In short it is a new entity and Halifax <> HRM.
The names for CBRM and HRM have a common thread - the term "Regional Municipality" is prominent. Everyone refers to these locations using either the full title, or the initials... It's clunky, but politically palatable for residents of outlying communities that were amalgamated with the larger urban areas.
One should note that some Wikipedia articles with lists of Canadian population centres, etc., reference "Cape Breton, Nova Scotia" - the authors of these lists have used the incorrect name as "Cape Breton, Nova Scotia" could refer to the island, the headland, the CBRM, or anything else in Nova Scotia containing the words "Cape Breton" within it.
The same ambiguity now appears to surround the term "Halifax, Nova Scotia", since this could refer to the HRM, the former city of Halifax, the Halifax Peninsula, or anything else in Nova Scotia that contains the word "Halifax" within it.
These regional municipalities are not cities, since they contain a mixture of urban and rural settlements. What would have been more logical (for the sake of Wikipedians not from this region, struggling to understand Nova Scotia municipal politics) is if it had been a straight-forward amalgamation of the urban areas into a larger City of Halifax.
This occurred in 1969 when Fairview and Rockingham and Spryfield were merged into Halifax. This same approach could have been used in Cape Breton whereby we would have a larger City of Sydney. Unfortunately this wasn't the case and we have the regional municipality model, and people refer to their county-wide municipality with the term "regional municipality" having gained wide acceptance.
Plasma east 12:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Naming it something other than "Halifax Regional Municipality" would cause more problems than it would solve . I live in Markham now and lived in Armdale before it became HRM, to me and others its still Armdale and Halifax is still Halifax . There is a difference between Halifax the community and Halifax Regional Municipality and the people on my mailing list do not have " Halifax Regional Municipality" on thier adresses yet.
That seems to be my feeling too. When people in HRM refer to "Halifax", they are mostly referring to the former city of Halifax. Residents of Sheet Harbour or Lower Sackville or Dean refer to their respective community names, but they are part of the wider HRM.
The logic behind the naming of the current set of articles (HRM, Halifax NS redirect to HRM, and Halifax NS - former city) relates to the fact that they were getting a very incoherent mish-mash of information from well-intentioned contributors, but it was making for a very confusing article (Halifax, Nova Scotia) which contained information on all the historic information for the former city, as well as information on the modern-day municipality called HRM.
Initially we kept the Halifax, NS article alongside the HRM article, but there was duplicate information being added, thus the decision to redirect to the HRM article and place the historic information pertaining to the former city into Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city).
The big obstacle to having a separate Halifax, NS entry is that a lot of Wikipedians who are not aware of the difference between HRM and Halifax, NS will unintentionally edit the former city article with present-day information that might pertain to the entire HRM. The municipal amalgamation was forced upon the entire county in 1996 and the name HRM was, and remains, a compromise name to allow all communities in the county to feel inclusive...
The current set of articles was the most logical solution we could come up with, that would convey the information and reinforce the distinctions between what existed pre and post 1996, while channelling the contributions of other Wikipedians into the appropriate direction.
Plasma east 12:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Speaking as an American who just learned about this change of political geography in Nova Scotia when coming to this article, I notice that this situation (what to call the region, which is the "official" part, what does the old name now refer to, etc.) seems quite similar to the consolidation of the boroughs of New York into a single city. There, "New York County" is synonymous with the Borough of Manhattan, while residents of Brooklyn use "Brooklyn, NY" as their address rather than "New York, NY" even though Brooklyn is a part of the city of New York, and many others, too many to mention here. Halifax, Nova Scotia should refer to something, and I think it makes most sense for it to refer to both the old city of Halifax and the new municipality as a whole, depending on context. It should not be considered _incorrect_ for persons of the area to claim to be "from Halifax, Nova Scotia". It must be agreed by many that "I come from Halifax Regional Municipality" sounds very ugly.
mal7798 04:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Linking to Halifax

Having been living in Halifax I find some of the articles that not in Halifax proper are being referenced so far from "Halifax" but the link goes to Halifax Regional Municipality . This is confusing to the people who are reading . I suggest using the link to downtown as a reference to Halifax the community--Torontoman 18:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Mattvm, cut it out with the sockpuppets! Ouuplas 03:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about I am Torontomam --Torontoman 10:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Archiving this page

I've re-archived this talk page, this time using a page move rather than cut-and-paste. The archive is now at Talk:Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia/Archive1.

I was also surprised to learn that the discussion about sockpuppets was not in the previously-created archive, even though it was removed from this page at the same time as the other archived content. --Saforrest 10:47, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Community and Neighbourhoods

Hi gang! I am back!

The community and neighbourhoods section is garbage. What are we talking about here? Every dot on a map? Every dot + neighbourhoods? Every dot plus neighbourhoods plus neighbourhoods that do not even exist anymore? I am going to try and edit this this week, I think it looks horrible, and is actually rather useless. Thoughts? WayeMason 23:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


It can be divided up into local sections like the "Eastern shore " or another page would be an idea .--Bill 00:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

What if we use the HRM planning areas, which are the sections you see on the map, on the page? Then put communities under appropriate area? WayeMason 00:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Now thats a good idea --Bill 00:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. It will be great right up till city hall changes the g-d planning areas, AGAIN! :) WayeMason 12:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay after studying the issue this week, I propose that the top article on HRM should have the planning areas/communities that HRM currently uses... each of these would then in turn be its own article, many of which already exist: Bedford Dartmouth Halifax Timberlea/Lakside/Beechville Eastern Passage Cole Harbour/Westfall Hammonds Plains/Upper Sackville/Beaverbank Shuenacadie Lakes Prospect Road Chebucto Peninsula Preston/Cherrybrook/Lake Loon/Lake Major Lake Echo/Porters Lake Lawrencetown Eastern Shore (West) Eastern Shore (East) Musquodobout Valley/Dutch Settlement Then each neighborhood or community would then be listed under the appropriate article. What do you say? WayeMason 23:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I think someone needs to go through and combine all the neighbourhood articles (e.g. Bel Ayr Park) into lists that are part of their city articles (Dartmouth for this example, if I understood the geography right). Separate articles for each neighbourhood is overkill and not appropriate for a global encyclopedia. Maybe take a look at WP:LOCAL for some ideas as to what should get its own article and what should be combined into a "parent" article. DeMatt 22:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Flag

The flag with the bird is not the Halifax Regional Municipality flag its the former city of Halifax flag and is not used by HRM , the flag with the HRM logo is the official flag and is used officially at all HRM building ,fire and police station. The Halifax city went with the the city of Halifax and should be in that article . See website --Bylaw History--Bill 10:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

No, my friend. The blue kingfisher flag, just a yellow bird, outlined lightly in black, on a very light blue background, with no stupid arrows, windjammers and st andrews crosses, was the City of Halifax flag. The one you are concerned about is the HRM flag, which was created by committee after amalgamation, on a dark blue background, and includes the arrows from the Bedford Flag, the ship from the Dartmouth flag, the Kingfisher from the Halifax flag, and the cross from the provincial flag for the county. It is so ugly it hurts. The Halifax logo is the HRM corporate logo, which is different from the HRM livery, ie flag and coat of arms. However, the flag is so ugly that even the HRM uses the corporate logo flag instead. WayeMason 10:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Driver Attitude

I placed a cleanup tag on this section because I just don't feel that it reasonably describes HRM. It might describe one or two streets with high pedestrian vs. vehicle counts (such as the east end of Spring Garden Road, or part of lower Barrington Street), but by and large, you don't have cars stopping for pedestrians willy-nilly across the region. Try jay-walking out at Dunbrack & Lacewood, or on Portland Street, or on Highway 1 in Timberlea or Highway 7 in Westphal, or Wyes Road, etc. and you'll quickly and unfortunately find that drivers are the exact same as any other urban centre in North America. I've raised this issue before in what is now the archived discussion section. Unless we can empirically prove that drivers are courteous and all-loving to pedestrians, I doubt it needs to be mentioned, as I'm sure such tendencies exist on certain streets in many other urban areas too and they don't warrant mentioning. At the very least, this section should be merged and pared down as it does not realistically portray the situation one iota. Plasma east 11:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Most of the section was ripped from this site: http://experts.about.com/e/h/ha/Halifax,_Nova_Scotia.html. For shame. 65.94.0.113 02:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC) lowerarchy
If there is any further proof needed that this claim is completely false, read on. Plasma east 13:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
The Chronicle-Herald
Wednesday, November 8, 2006
Rough day for pedestrians crossing Halifax streets
Six hit in 24 hours
By KRISTEN LIPSCOMBE Staff Reporter
Six pedestrians were hit by cars while crossing Halifax streets in a 24-hour period beginning at suppertime Monday.
All were injured. In one case, a car drove over a man’s legs and took off.
The first of the mishaps happened at about 5:45 p.m. when a woman was struck in a crosswalk on Coburg Road, Halifax Regional Police said. The impact threw her into the air and she suffered hip and leg injuries, police said.
The driver was ticketed for failing to yield to a pedestrian in a crosswalk.
Just before 7:20 p.m., a man slipped and fell while crossing the street at the intersection of Young and Isleville streets and couldn’t get up in time to avoid a car that drove over his legs, police said. The driver made no attempt to stop. The victim called 911 himself.
Police are still investigating the incident as a hit and run.
Shortly after 8 p.m., a man walking in a crosswalk at Cogswell and North Park streets was hit by a car and knocked to the pavement, police said. He was treated for minor injuries.
"Three in one evening is a significant number," Const. Jeff Carr said. "The weather was poor . . . and that may have had something to do with it.
"We remind drivers that they need to drive with extra caution when the weather is adverse."
Then at about 9:20 a.m. Tuesday, two women were hit in a crosswalk at South Park and Brenton streets. One of the women, a 24-year-old, was dragged for several metres underneath the northbound car, leaving her with an injured arm and serious cuts and bruises.
"Fortunately, her injuries are non-life-threatening," Const. Carr said.
The other woman sustained a minor head injury, police said.
An 83-year-old man was ticketed for failing to yield to pedestrians in a crosswalk.
Later Tuesday, a 16-year-old girl was taken to hospital with a broken leg after she was struck while crossing Chain Lake Drive just after 6 p.m.
The vehicle had a green light and the girl was walking against the light, Sgt. David Reynolds said Tuesday night.
"She has been charged with failing to obey a traffic signal."

Cleanup, sub-articles and categorization

I've created sub-articles for most sections requiring them, placing links to these from the main article. The main article could still use refinement to get a good flow for readers but it's not nearly as long as it was before. I've also created new categories to place related articles into - please use them, or modify them as you see fit. I'm about wiki'd out for now.Plasma east 20:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Good work I like it--Bill 22:28, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Here's some new information that could aid or cause more confusion as to the status of the name "Halifax.":
Halifax (City now Metropolitan Area) was incorporated in 1841. Confirmed 1 March 1921. Status changed to Metropolitan Area when the City was dissolved by the creation of Halifax Regional Municipality on 1 April 1996 by Bill 3.[1]
Dartmouth (City now Metropolitan Area) was incorporated in 1873. Name confirmed 1 March 1921. Status changed to Metropolitan Area when the City was dissolved by the creation of Halifax Regional Municipality on 1 April 1996 by Bill 3.[2]
Bedford (Town now Urban Community) was approved 1 March 1921. Incorporated as a town 1 July 1980. Status changed to Urb. Comm. (2) when the Town was dissolved by the creation of Halifax Regional Municipality by Bill 3 on 1 April 1996.[3]
Halifax (Geographic County) was one of the five original counties of Nova Scotia created by Order in Council on 17 August 1759. The boundaries of Halifax (Geo. Co.) contains Halifax (Mun. Co.) which was dissolved by the creation of Halifax Regional Municipality by Bill 3 on 1 April 1996.[4]
Plasma east 15:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The article Metropolitan Area states it differently . Dartmouth even before it was dissolved as a city was part of "Metro Halifax" and still is .Acording to the HRM website both Halifax and Dartmouth are separate communities [5] . HRM and the NS government do have different terms for them . Also the article "Halifax Regional Municipality" should have not be redirected from "Halifax, Nova Scotia" because it should go to the article "Halifax (former city) " which is no different than "North Pole Alaska" as been a place rather than a Municipal unit which confuses a person who wants to find information on Halifax the place than Halifax the Regional Municipality. After people in Eastern Passage get thier mail addressed to Eastern Passage, Nova Scotia not Halifax, Nova Scotia .--Bill 21:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

So should the Wikipedia definition govern Nova Scotia articles, or the Nova Scotia gov't definition? Every jurisdiction has a different definition. I notice that Wikipedia articles on cities like Calais, Maine would likely not follow some type of general statement about cities, if population were taken into consideration exclusively. Re. the redirect, I'm not quite sure what Haligonians vs. HRM'ers would wish for the "Halifax, Nova Scotia" article to point to... It points at HRM for now because we found many Wikipedians, some from and many not from the municipality, were editing the "Halifax, Nova Scotia" article with information that belonged under HRM. It isn't correct, but it seemed to work at the time.Plasma east 21:46, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
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