Talk:Halal

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Contents 1 Requested move 1.1 Survey and discussion 2 Eating of Frogs 3 Method of killing fish 4 Halal similarity to kosher 5 Animal rights groups: Sources? 6 Hunting Halaal 7 Halaal userbox 8 separate Dhabiĥa page 9 Islamically? 10 Anesthetics not halal? 11 Major changes 12 Neutrality 13 NPOV 14 Halal And Kosher Section 15 is hen a haram 16 merge this page with dabiha and islamic dietary laws 17 Clarification 18 various forms of halaal 19 Irony 20 Genetically modified foods

[edit] Requested move

Proposal  :	Halal → Halal
Rationale :	Why are we using the "halaal" spelling rather than "halal" for the article? A Google search yields 8,230,000 results for "halal", while "halaal" only returns 260,000 results. The Arabic pronunciation, at least in my mind, is better represented by the "halal" spelling. Would there be any objection to moving the article to "halal" instead?
Proposer :	quadratic 03:44, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey and discussion

Please add  * Support  or  * Oppose  followed by a brief explanation, then sign your vote using "~~~~".

• Support, although (a) Google not a reliable authority; (b) I'm no expert on Arabic transliteration; but (c) "Halal" is the only (public) way I too have ever seen it transcribed. David Kernow 09:42, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support every aspect of what David Kernow says above. --Stemonitis 14:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support per nomination. AjaxSmack 07:44, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support yes, and we'll always have both spellings in the intro. --a.n.o.n.y.m ^t 05:12, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Done. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 08:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eating of Frogs

I have never heard that frogs are forbidden because they live on land and water. However, there is a hadith in which the prophet said it is forbidden to kill frogs. Since we are only allowed to eat slaughtered animals, and to slaughter a frog would be forbidden, therefore it follows we can't eat frogs.

[edit] Method of killing fish

The methods forbidden for killing fish are mentioned, but the allowed/prescribed method or methods are not given. Can someone add this?

[edit] Halal similarity to kosher

I added this part; i'm not an expert on halal but the Muslims of my acquaintance assure me that what I have added is true. If those more learned than I feel that I am wrong, please feel free to correct and I assure you I meant no harm/slight/or slander. Gzuckier 17:27, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Added "The Quranic verse 5:5 declares the food of the people of the book is halal..." to that. ;-) -- sabre23t 07:36, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm going to move this because "Halal" is much more common than "Halaal". WhisperToMe 00:09, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is a problem with the factual accuracy of the line saying that some interpretations of Kashrut allow the mixing of milk and meat. Mixing milk and meat is one of the major definitions of what is not Kosher. Unless a specific, qualified source can be cited, it's an inaccuracy and should be removed. yonkeltron 10:38, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Is it worth adding that some Muslim immigrants to Western countries choose to settle near Jewish neighborhoods for this reason? For example, the large South Asian Muslim population in Midwood, Brooklyn.--Pharos 01:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Animal rights groups: Sources?

I'm curious to the sources of any statements by animal rights groups claiming that the Muslims' method of slaughter create unnecessary pain. Is there any?

There's some info in the shechita article. Supposedly the methods for slaughter are basically the same, so I guess it receives the same criticism. 惑乱 分からん 10:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Appears that the arabic equivalent to "shechita" is "thabiha", according to Muslim dietary laws. 惑乱 分からん 10:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Just read an old article about it on the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2977086.stm here. Arianna 13:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Kosher slaughter does not require a blessing to my understanding.

[edit] Hunting Halaal

Most tribesmen seems to operate on various modifications of halaal, particularly when hunting, and not necessarily when far afield of purely out of necessity. Although common, how can falconry be halaal?

Good question, depends on who you ask I suppose. There are a lot of more "fold Islam" rules that aren't publicized. They are often called "unIslamic" but, they are quite Islamic to those who practice them I suppose. gren グレン 11:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

There are specific rules that permit the eating of meats captured when hunting with dogs and birds of prey; not sure about the

details. Palmiro | Talk 14:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Hunting with trained hunting animals (dogs, falcons) is permitted when three conditions are met: 1- The animal is trained to kill, not consume the prey 2- The animal responds to the orders of the hunter of release, return, and halt 3- The name of God is pronounced at the sending of the hunting animal

there are a few more details but that is the gist of it. other details include what to do when another animal is found with the hunting animal around the prey.Wilis.azm 00:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Halaal userbox

There is now a suggested userbox for practitioners of Halaal. To check out the proposal, go to Template:User_Halal and continue the discussion. 惑乱 分からん 10:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] separate Dhabiĥa page

The dutch wiki has a separate article on Dhabiĥa, I think this might be better, if anyone can translate ...

Can't translate Dutch, but I am creating another page for Dhabiĥa Starwarp2k2 23:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Islamically?

The adverb "Islamically" is used in this article. "Islamically, the prescribed method is to cut through the large arteries in the neck along with the esophagus and trachea with one swipe of a nonserrated blade and drain all blood and impurities from the animal, because as noted above, the consumption of blood itself is forbidden." Is this even a word? Can someone do something "islamically"? What is this adverb modifying? I'd change this to something like "According to the Quran...," or "According to Muslim customs..." but I've never read the Quran and I'm not well versed enough in Muslim eating habits to make this claim.

-- I believe the word "Islamically" is used widely, but it is technically not a word. I looked in various dictionaries but could not find it anywhere. I am changing the word "Islamically" to "According to Islamic tradition, the conventional method...".

My searches yielded that cutting through the arteries is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran, but is a tradition (sunnah?) followed since the time of Prophet Mohammed PBUH, and maybe even earlier, in order to minimize the pain of the animal being slaughtered, as well as to drain the blood of the animal. Someone please verify or deny this conclusion, because it is used to justify the change mentioned above. Starwarp2k2 21:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)--

[edit] Anesthetics not halal?

I find no source which states that anesthetics are not permissible as per Islamic law. Can anyone prove otherwise?--Starwarp2k2 02:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major changes

Starwarp2k2, I know you mean well, but I think your major overhaul contains a number of problems that need to be addressed:

1. Is the distinction between the '1st type of Bismallah' and the '2nd type of Bismallah' generally accepted or something of your own invention? If it is the latter, it counts as Original Research.
2. This is a general encyclopedia, not an Islamic encyclopedia so we should be focussing on what actual Muslims do, and not try to determine what is correct according to Islam.
3. The multiple mentions on what is correct/incorrect and words that are 'mispronouced' is POV. Wikipedia describes, it doesn't tell people how to behave, or what is the correct religious practice.

To be honest, I've gone through and tried to figure out how to improve your changes, but at this stage I think reverting back and would be a better option. I'm interested in other people's opinions, before I do anything. Ashmoo 02:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your criticism Ashmoo, I'm glad someone is ripping apart my work. Here are my responses to your concerns:

1. The distinction between the two types of "Bismillah Halals" is generally accepted. I have not been able to find any clear cut website which elaborates on the various definitions of halal and acknowledges this, but I am definately working on it. Halal, in general, is a difficult topic but hopefully I will post a source soon.
2. I realized this POV issue earlier today, and have already begun going back and replacing things such as "this is factually incorrect" with "this contradicts the Quran" and including my sources. I have not finalized the editting of this article, and if possible, I would appreciate messages from anyone who is able to find additional instances of this POV problem.
3. I believe the POV issue was addressed above. If you have anything else I missed, please let me know.

As far as the pronunciation goes, I believe you are referring to "dhabiha"/"zabiha". Few know this but "zabiha" arises from the Indian Subcontinent. The lettering of Hindi/Urdu of India and Pakistan is similar to that of Arabic, but different in some aspects. The introduction of "z" in place of "dh" is one place where Arabic is altered to be written in Hindi, and thus the pronunciation is altered. I personally cannot read Arabic, but in order to verify this claim, I had an Arabic speaker give me her opinion. She verified the claim, but I understand that this classifies as Original Research. I am continuously searching for an online source which acknowledges this. What is your suggestion in this scenario? I understand that as this piece of information stands in the article, it can be considered as Original Research.

As you can probably expect, I believe that reverting back is a bad idea because the original article did not even recognize the fundamental distinction between "halal" and "dhabiha". I'm interested in hearing your reasons for reverting. Again, thank you very much for your editting and criticism.Starwarp2k2 03:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

First off, Starwarp2k2, I'd like to say thanks for taking my comments in good faith. I was struggling with finding a way to make my point without sounding abusive, and wasn't sure how you'd take it. After rereading the article and the previous version a few more times I think we can solve the issues without a revert.

Regarding dhabiha/zabiha. From an outsider's point of view, I'd just say that Arabs call it dhabiha and Indians & Pakistanis call is zabiha. When words are loaned from one language to another they often change prononciation. For example, the French don't pronounce the 's' in Paris, English-speakers do. This isn't mispronunciation, it is just that French and English have different words for the same city. If the pronunciation is a major issue amongst Arabs speaking Muslims they the controversy needs to be described, with sources. But I think it is a minor point that probably doesn't need mentioning. This brings up an important point though. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. The article should not focus on describing the different meanings of the word 'halal'. But rather it should describe the idea of halal. It is a subtle difference.

More generally, all the different interpretations of halal (is that the correct phrasing) are only attributed to 'some people' or 'some believe'. We need to know how popular each view is. (And generally websites don't count as notable sources, we need quotes from scholars of Islam/notable Islamic scholars). Regards, Ashmoo 04:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

As you said, we both mean well.

Dhabiha/Zabiha: I see what you are saying, and I believe that your interpretation of the situation surrounding the pronunciation is pretty accurate. I'm signing off of wiki editting for a day or so, and will edit it after I get back. If you feel it necessary, go ahead and edit it yourself.

I'll do my best as soon as possible with the more reputable sources, as well as with changing the "some people". It'll be difficult and will take some time because of the scarcity of unbiased and legit sources, but rest assured, even if you don't see those problems solved within the next few days, I'll still be working on them.

Just a question, do interviews of religious clerics at the "local" mosque count as Original Research? Thanks.Starwarp2k2 04:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

If it was you who did the interview I would say it would count as Original Research and also would be very hard to Verify, which is another pillar of wikipedia. A local cleric might also fail the Notability test. However, if you are talking to the cleric yourself, you could get him to point you in the direction of a well respected commentary which would pass the WP:Notability test and you could cite that commentary as a source. Ashmoo 04:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

I believe the article now represents a neutral POV. What do others, especially Ashmoo, have to say about this? Can you point out any occurances which represent an non-neutral POV? I propose removing the -NPOV- tag from the top of this article.Starwarp2k2 01:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed this source [1] as it fails the WP:Notability requirement. Ashmoo 04:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

We are editting simultaneously. I noticed that, and agree with your decision.Starwarp2k2 04:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Just quickly, could be standardise spellings, to save me going thru and editing all your changes?

• believe
• haraam

Ashmoo 04:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Will keep them in mind. Sorry and thanks.Starwarp2k2 04:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Another quick one: Does using the word ayat add anything over using the more commonly understood verse. Readers who aren't knowledgeable of Islamic terminology will instantly understand if 'verse' is used, but will have to remember what 'ayat' means. Ashmoo 04:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no diffierence between "ayat" and "quranic verses". Just a different language.Starwarp2k2 14:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

If their is no difference then I would prefer 'verse' as this is an English language encyclopedia. What do you think? Ashmoo 22:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Perfectly fine by me. If it helps to improve readability...why not? I'll take care of it.Starwarp2k2 00:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I removed the POV tag as I think it is ok now. I still think there are some slight POV problems, but believe they will be solved once everything conforms to WP:CITE. That is, opinions on what is/isn't halal are attributed to actual people/organisations, rather than stated as fact. Ashmoo 04:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Will keep working on it.Starwarp2k2 14:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Halal And Kosher Section

I propose changing "Although they bear significant resemblence, most Muslim authorities believe they are not interchangeable." to "Although they bear significant resemblence, most religious and secular authorities believe they are not interchangeable."

For a Muslim authority: [2] For a Jewish authority:[?] For a secular authorities: [3]

I tried to find a Jewish authority stating that kosher!= halal, but couldn't find one. If someone can find one, is this change acceptable?Starwarp2k2 21:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] is hen a haram

please tell if anyone has the requisite knowledge. since hen eats insects and small creatures, is it haraam in traditional fundamentalistic islam

please reply soon, and do leave a copy of it on my talk page. eagerly waitin.

nids 13:26, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] merge this page with dabiha and islamic dietary laws

i strongly suggest to merge this page with dabiha and islamic dietary laws. but still, i m waitin for further suggestion.

nids 09:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I second that opinion, but not by merely deleting everything in the Dietary laws page and adding it to the Halal Page. This is because the article for halal already contains much of the information in the Islamic Dietary Laws page.Starwarp2k2 12:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification

It says in the "Explicitly Forbidden Substances" section of this article that:

     Animals slaughtered in the name of anyone but Allah 

are forbidden.
However on the Islamic dietary laws page, it says:

    For the meat of an animal to be halāl it must be properly slaughtered by a Muslim or a 

 Person of the Book (Christian or Jew), while mentioning the name of God (Allah in Arabic);

In the second case, God could represent Yahweh, Jehovah, Holy Trinity or the various other names of "God" used in Christianity or Judaism - which do not specifically represent the same diety as the Islamic God, "Allah". I understand that all these words translate to "God", but shouldn't we use the same name to be consistent? Ozzykhan 19:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

You've touched upon a heated debate: "Is God the same as Allah?" As far as I know, there is no conclusive answer to this argument.[4][5][6] These are only the first few sites I checked, I'm sure that every site and scholarly opinion differs on the topic in some way.

In conclusion, I think that whichever terminology we use, "Allah" or "God", it will constitute a non-NPOV. For sake of simplicity and not wanting to delve into an argument that has no end, I vote to leave it as it is. Anyway, the information on the Islamic dietary laws page needs to be moved to either Halal or Dhabiha as necessary, and the then the page needs to be deleted.Starwarp2k2 00:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I suppose when the two articles are combined/moved there won't be any "discrepencies"!Ozzykhan 02:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] various forms of halaal

i would just like to note that a number of these different Halal categories are virtually non-existent or extreme minority opinions, which per WP:NPOV, do not merit mention. please provide sources for these claims. thank you. ITAQALLAH 06:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

:With all due respect, all but one are very common and widespread views. Backed by an authoritative opinion or not, there are significant quantities of people who follow all of them. 

if they were common and widespread, they would have been documented somewhere. verifiability is the key here. WP is not a place for original findings. i personally don't think that this opinion is notable or widespread at all. ITAQALLAH 17:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

:I understand that they need sources. The problem with the topic of halal is the lack of unbiased and valid sources.

there are plenty of fatwa websites out there. if this method has been endorsed, i am sure a few of them will have it. ITAQALLAH 17:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

:I am also reinserting the source you removed because of your reasoning: "the link merely says that saying bismillah, it says nothing about permitting haraam meat through this method". The source says: "In this hadith only Bismillah is mentioned, therefore the 'ulama say, if one only recites Bisrnillah before eating, it will suffice". It clearly states that there are 'ulama who support the first type of Bismillah halal, and so I can't see your reasoning. Had I used this same source for the second type, your removal would have been justified, but the source is adequate for this section. After this explanation, if you still want to remove the source, please discuss.Starwarp2k2 16:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

i think you have misunderstood what is being said. here is the full quote:

"In this hadith only Bismillah is mentioned, therefore the 'ulama say, if one only recites Bisrnillah before eating, it will suffice, but it is better and recommended that the full 'Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim' be recited. The 'ulama have also written that it is better to say the bismillah audily so that others who may have forgotten may also remember it. "

it is discussing the permissibility of saying "bismillah" instead of "bismillah ar-rahmaan ar-raheem". it has nothing to do with making the meat halaal if it is haraam. the whole point of discussing the basmalah here is because they are showing that it is from the sunnah to say the basmalah before you eat (at all). please read the entire page in its correct context and it will become clear that it is discussing the virtue of saying the basmalah before one eats. nothing to do with the concept of "bismillah halal". to say that it is only in reference to forbidden meat is WP:OR. i hope the misunderstanding has been cleared. thanks. ITAQALLAH 17:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much Itaqallah. You are correct, I misinterpreted that website. I apologize.

Also, you said: "if this method has been endorsed, i am sure a few of them will have it". A method does not need to be endorsed for people to follow it. Nevertheless, I apologize and have replaced the incorrect source with another one. The site does not agree with the ideology, but in denying it, it recognizes it's existance: '"Finally, there are some people who say “it is permissible to eat it (i.e. non-Zabihah meat) after saying Bismillah at the time of eating”"'. I hope this clears things up.Starwarp2k2 19:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irony

Is it just me, or does it seem odd that the provided picture of an Australian Halal certificate is for a chocolate Easter Bunny? Maybe it just appeals to my sense of humor! Fizban 11:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Good point! If anyone is offended, maybe they can find something to replace that with. The truth is, there are plenty of kosher-certified Easter bunnies as well, so I really shouldn't be surprised about the Halal ones. It's all marketing. --Keeves 11:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genetically modified foods

Does anyone know if genetically modified foods are approved/not approved by Halal laws? Kurieeto 00:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)