Talk:Haku (Naruto)

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Contents 1 Category 2 Sexuality section 3 Image of Haku's death 4 Category (again) 5 One-handed seals 6 "Haku's Sexuality" revisited 6.1 Haku's sexuality - principles 6.2 Suggestions for sexuality proponents 6.3 Suggestions for sexuality opponents 6.3.1 Sexuality mediation compromise proposals 6.3.2 More compromise proposals 7 An incorrect statement, perhaps?

[edit] Category

No mention of his very brief appearence later in the series, as a child? It was in the Sasuke retrieval arc, I was expecting to find information like that (and any other appearences I might have missed or have coming up) on this page! --83.67.100.40 13:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I am adding Haku to the LGBT comic book character category, not because of the alleged and unsubstantiated relationship between Haku and Zabuza, but because of the fact that Haku dresses as a girl (the T in LGBT does stand for transsexual. While to the uninitiated, boys in manga and anime, the bishounen, are seen as girly, but in most cases, within the context of the story, they are meant to appear as males. Haku, however, is intended to have the appearance of a girl, as even Naruto mistook him for one when they first met. Based on that criteria, in he goes! Perceive 00:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure he belongs, personally. While he might look like a girl, it's not quite the same as tossing on pumps and highheels... I think the defining point is that he does outright state he's a boy. 171.72.5.226 17:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

High heels aren't the norm for female ninjas in Naruto, either (But if Haku was going to a Western ball, he may very well throw on high heels). Once again, I stress that it is within the context of the story that he is dressed as a girl—i.e. he styled himself as what people in the world of Naruto would take) to be a female ninja. And as for your other concern, most cross-dressers do not deny their biological gender. I'm putting Haku back in.Perceive 17:25, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

In my opion, he is a transvestite. I mean, he is rather gender confused. The Gerg 00:36, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, I think everyone's mixed up here. Haku is NOT a cross-dresser, nor is he a dude acting like a chick. The only thing that makes anyone mistake him for a girl is his facial expression and possibly his voice (though I doubt this, since Kakashi seemed to recognize that he was a boy when he was wearing an Oinin Mask). I've noticed nowhere in any fassion where he acts like a girl. And I dunno if you know, but I think dudes can dress in kimonos. Plus, would you blame him for dressing in one? I think it would look pretty conspicuous if he wore a Kirigakure Headband and a holster packed full of Senbon just to go pick some medicinal herbs. The only time he was a girl was in the...um...I think it was the Malaysian Dub (they even changed his name to Shiro which caused some useless confusion on his clan name, which he either has none, or just doesn't know what it is). And to all those who think so: He's not gay. Zabuza is just precious to him, just like Sasuke was (I think) precious to Naruto when Haku "killed" him and Sakura throughout the series up to Part II. Zabuza's not gay either, 'cause he only realized how precious Haku was to him minutes before he died. Get it straight, people! The Wretched 04:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Calm down. And he is a cross-dresser. It's really quite obvious. You can't possibly say that get-up he wore when collecting flowers wasn't women's clothing, and even Naruto notes the gender confusion. He may or may not be gay (it's ambiguous and we'll leave it at that), but he's certainly a cross-dresser. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 06:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Haku is NOT gay! If he was, don't you think he would have played along when Naruto assumed he was a girl? USE YOUR BRAIN PEOPLE!!!

I would submit that rather than quesioning his sexuality, the question should still be about his sex, in general. There seems to be enough gender-related confusion within the characters, internally, to not just pass Haku off as "obviously" one or the other. After all, just because Haku says he is doesn't mean that he's not trying to hide something. I think there's enough unsurity (and lack of clarity) that it's still a possibility. I, however, am convinced that Haku is a girl trying to pass herself off as a guy, which would explain a number of "issues." But, besides all of that, I wanted to voice my support of the Wretched. Much, if not most, of traditional Japanese clothing and textiles are unisex and, besides all of that, many male characters in anime are faily effeminate without much question to their gender or sexuality. Which is why the idea that characters confuse Haku's gender--and since so much attention is given to it--that it makes me suspicious. He has decidedly effeminate gestures and expressions, which seems to be purposefully done. I think it's also important to note that Kakashi declares Haku's gender when he is masked and in heavy cloak--which is an assumed identity--and assumes, as most people would especially in feudal and most of modern Japan, that Haku is defaultedly male: let's not confuse Japan with America.

Naruto, who "mistakenly" believes Haku to be a girl when he mets him picking herbs, does not make the same mistake when he meets Haku, later (before figuring out the two people are the same). So, either way, I'm not sure you can say for sure that Haku is obviously a transvestite since we're still not sure of Haku's gender in the first place. And, although this idea seems to require more subtlety than Naruto seems to allow for, I think the possibility remains a beautiful question within the series. Yet it's still quite true that Naruto isn't the sharpest tool in the shed...

Additionally, even if Haku is a guy, hero worship is a prevalent theme in most anime without requiring the characters involved to be a homosexual. Hero worship and hero-devotion in Japanese culture seems to be void of most sexuality (at least in its portrayal). But, whatever. This1trik4u 20:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Part of your reasoning is specious. The time Naruto met Haku again after they met in the forest, Haku was wearing a mask, that's why he didn't know it was Haku, or if the masked Haku was a guy or a girl. When the mask is off, Haku presents himself as a girl. Regardless, Naruto's perception is only part of the equation, it's how Haku is drawn. --Perceive 01:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

That is part of my point, actually. Because the mask acts as a blinding agent, we cannot assume that anything said about masked-Haku can actually be applied to the unmasked-Haku (so then Kakashi's and Naruto's assumption about Haku's gender is more generalization than fact)--maybe I wasn't clear about that point; in that case, I appologize. I agree that Naruto's perception is only part of the equation, though. And yet, it still seems a largtely significant part since a number of characters in Naruto (and all of anime, in general) are drawn effeminately but remain uncriticized. I'm just saying that if you're going to critically read the text, you have to look at all of the suspicious details. Nor does my questioning of Haku's gender necessarily negate the possibility that Haku is LGBT. We're just looking at all the possibilities, broadening the discussion: you choose to look at him as a transvestite; I wish to read him as a she pretending to be a he. Both readings (well, one reading and one deconstruction) seem supported by the text. This1trik4u 02:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I have been looking hard for a good Haku discussion and glad to have found one here. I would like to agree with the end of the statement above; after much thought I believe Haku to be a she pretending to be a he. I prefer to watch the subbed Japanese episodes, and the part that stands out for me most is when Haku is relating her bloodline limit water manipulation ability. She states (in the subs) that it's a genetic ability "passed from father to son, etc." ...and then goes on to state "My mother had this special ability." So that line of reasoning would say that Haku has to be female in order to have inherited the bloodline limit of water manipulation from her mother. I've not seen that episode in English so I would appreciate others' thoughts. Thanks! Das Unugunu 15:01, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

Your reasoning is off, likely due to mistranslation. Bloodline limits are passed down through a clan to all its members, male or female. Haku's mother was in the clan that possessed the bloddline limit, thus why Haku notes his mother as the one who possessed it. His father was a a garden variety person. As for your other assertions, complete nonsense. He's a guy, pure and simple. A very feminine guy, no doubt about it, but a guy nonetheless. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 21:28, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

i would say that he is androgynous rather than a crossdresser

Amen to that! Nor is he gay or a girl.

I had some extra time earlier this evening, so I looked back in on the Isle of Waves arc. Okay, a rather significant concession: episode 17, where Haku recounts the death of his parents, when Haku’s mother discovers Haku’s blood-limit she says “why does he have it to?” That’s the only time I noticed that Haku’s gender was referenced pre-Zabuza. Though the use of “he” is sometimes “genderless” (as in flexible in use), it is most often used as masculine, and usually is applied to females in mixed gender groups (so there’s wiggle room, albeit very LITTLE wiggle room). After that, his gender is unmentioned until Zabuza calls him a him, and Haku cathects Zabuza as the ideal-I. This seems to be the only internal evidence that Haku was considered male pre-Zabuza.

However, I have a question. When did Zabuza get expelled from the Hidden-in-the-Mist village? I ask this because at the end of one of Haku’s flashbacks Zabuza tells Haku that they’ll be leaving the Land of Water for an extended period of time. If Haku leaves with Zabuza and never comes back—apart from Zabuza’s attack—when, if ever, does Haku becomes an official Water ninja?

Or is that head-protector just something he picked up at the yard sale along the way? And is that why he is unsure of Naruto’s ninja status despite the obvious Konohagakure head-protector? And is this a sign of Haku habitually assuming identities that are not his own?

I don’t know: I still feel unsettled about Haku’s gender. I guess because the last time I felt this unsure was while watching Dilandu in Escaflowne… He was a she. But he was also a he. And it was a little more than weird. I guess I’m sensing many of the same vibes of, seemingly, intentional confusion. And my final question, then, is if every character who exhibits socially deviant behavior (and, lets face it, being trans-gender is still pretty deviant in Japan) is granted an excuse for that behavior in the world of Naruto, what is the reason/point of Haku posessing traditional feminine Japanese physical characteristics and "assuming" behavioral traits? You have to admit, it's a tad bit random, especially if it was merely for the effect of one "Naruto is ignorant" joke. It just seems to make more sense to me that he be a she pretending to be a he. But my sense hardly matters in the grand scheme of things, especially since it looks like I had been misreading Haku.

So, for now, barring merely circumstantial evidence, he is a he with LOTS of question marks. This1trik4u 06:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

If Haku is a girl trying to pass as a boy, she is doing one hell of a job! If she were trying to pass as a boy, she would not be walking around in the forest in a pink dress picking wildflowers. He is a crossdresser, and there is nothing "deviant" about it. He wants to dress like a girl? Fine, more power to him. You people need to start being a little bit more open minded than taking the stance that (a) a guy who dresses like a girl is a homosexual (if you actually knew any homosexuals or crossdressers you would learn that most homosexuals do not crossdress, and in fact the vast majority of crossdressers are heterosexual men) and (b) anything transgendered is "deviant." In fact, when you used that word, I was deeply offended.

However, your pangender ignorance aside, the matter of his sexuality is not an issue here. We might as well be debating Zabuza's sexuality, or Naruto's, or Gaara's. There is no evidence to point him to being gay, but he is definitely a crossdresser. Therefore, I am putting him back in the category of LGBT comic book characters, because T stands for transgender. 129.59.97.226 04:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey Anon! Please consider registering :) Your contribution here at the wiki might prove useful. However, I would like to ask you to stay cool. As much as I shirk from doing so, I have to defend the 'deviant' comment (as insulting as it is) only because I think This1trik4u used it literally (that is, a behavior that 'deviates' from the social norm). Keep in mind that this statement depends a lot on tone of voice, which there is none of on the internet. If he/she meant it as insulting, then shame. But its also obvious from his/her comments that thinking about this has caused a (somewhat) new perspective on gender. (Also not sure how the user has missed the use of transgendered characters in anime for the longest time). I have to disagree with you on the 'no evidence of him being gay' bit, though. There is a lot of evidence throughout Haku's appearences that he might have been homosexual as well as transgendered (that is to say, using his relationship to/with Zabuza and NOT the mere fact that he is trans). In any case, I hope you'll stick around. CaveatLector^Talk 13:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Haku cant possibly be a girl becuase even in death zabuza still calls haku a guy and i qoute from my friend: Eventually, Zabuza is fatally wounded and as he is about to die he requests to “see his face” in the manga and “be taken to him” in the anime. Zabuza even said Haku was a guy.Hoshigaki Kisame 20:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... You all have very interesting povs, but may I contribute some details that I'm amazed that you people have overlooked? First of all, the gender question, I'm going to conclude that we're using the japanese version as the "definite" canon version, in the japanese anime version, they seldom, if ever, use the correct form of "he" (彼 kare) or "she" (彼女, kanojo) but tends to use more neutral pronouncions such as "that person" (あの人, ano hito) however, Haku is actually an exception as he is more commonly refered to as "boy" (少年, shounen), even after his death he is refered to as this (latest time in chapter 316) and that SHOULD settle the gender question. Second, the transvestite question, it is true that one might easily get the impression that Haku, provided that he is a boy, is a crossdresser... This couldn't be more wrong, or rather, it could be right if Naruto was staged in the western world, it's not... While a kimono is generaly considered to be a female garment, even if males may also wear it, it should be noted that it isn't a kimono, but a yukata that Haku is wearing when he encounters Naruto in the forest, and a yukata is a gender neutral garment, thus we don't have any at all proofs that emphasise that Haku may be a crossdresser, other than being generally "girly". Third, the sexuallity question... Here, I'm going to have to post more of personal opinions and observations, rather than actual facts... In my eyes, I can see a relationship between Haku & Zabuza that looks almost just like the relationship between Musashibo Benkei & Minamoto no Yoshitsune, IE. both Benkei and Haku are displaying such a devotion to their masters that one might easily believe that there is more than just straight professional feelings between the two... It should also be brought to mind that in japanese culture, homosexuality is generaly more accepted than in the western world, and while I might very well see Haku as homosexual, maybe even Zabuza's lover (considering that Zabuza always tended to suppress, conceal and decline that he had emotions, I have a hard time thinking of ther relationship as amourus), I tend to lean more towards the prior explenation, that Haku's relationship to Zabuza is purely one of loyalty.

(Why is it that some people are so homophobic that they can't even consider the possibility that Haku & Zabuza might've HAD a homosexual relationship? ... It's not impossible, I'm telling you.)

[edit] Sexuality section

Someguy, here is your edit:

Haku feminine appearance, as well as his tendancy to wear clothing normally worn by woman (known as cross-dressing), has led to questions concerning his sexuality, specifically in relation to Zabuza. It's not certain if Haku and Zabuza had any form of a sexual relationship, or if their relationship was more familial in nature. There is some evidence to suggest that it is true, but it remains an ambiguous issue. When Haku explains to Zabuza why he attacked the pressure points in his neck, he stated that he didn't want to "mark up (his) flawless body," (the exact statement differs between translations, but carries the same context) suggesting a homoerotic fixation with Zabuza. Also, in the English translation of the manga, Haku has been referred to as Zabuza's "consort", a term which is generally used to describe a spouse. Naruto in particular notes Haku's feminine appearance, as well as his rather surprising devotion to Zabuza.

The first sentence is an unnecessary change from my edits. It says the same thing, only it is less specific. Please read transgender. Also, Haku's transgenderism is not the focus of the questioning of his sexuality, his interaction with Zabuza is. I have edited accordingly. The setence 'There is some evidence to suggest that it is true' is correct grammatically, but the tone and style are not academic enough for an encyclopedia. (Most readers have to catch themselves thinking 'WHAT is true?' It's far easier to use a rewording of the sentence, and it flows better. The statement 'it remains an ambiguous issue' has already been IMPLIED by the dual statements 'Many fans deny...' and 'however, there is evidence that suggests'. Your wording is, once again, unacademic and unencyclopedic. Naruto's observations really don't fit in here (odd, I know. He is the main character, but I don't feel that's part of the body of strong evidence in this case). No offense intended. I justed wanted you to know why I changed the wording of the statement as I did. CaveatLector^Talk 05:48, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not this edit in particular I have a problem with, it's your habit of trying to work in every trivial detail for no apparent reason. Trivia sections are for the things too trivial to add to the main article. You insist on scattering it about for no apparent reason. I also disagree with adding fan opinions. I feel it doesn't make an objective opinion. I readded parts of your version. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 06:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I actually like this wording better. You hit a lot of nuances my wording missed this time around. Kudos! As for working in Trivia, its not that I want to work in every bit of trivia. My goal was to clean the trivia section. Much of it was either not trivial (such as his sexuality), not noteworthy, incomplete, or nonsensical. I certainly don't want to 'scatter it about' in any sort of fasion. Here is the orignal:

• The name "Haku" (白) (which is written in jōyō kanji) means "white", but is also in advertence to his immaculate personality.
• Haku's family name is often thought to be Shiro (also meaning "white"). However, this is fanon, as this confusion is caused by the Malaysian Dub, in which Haku's name was changed to Shiro in Episode 15.
• Haku remains very popular despite his relatively early death, routinely appearing in favorite character lists (as well as some of Naruto's own flashbacks, particularly during the Chunin Exam arc). However, he has fallen out of the top ten favorite characters.
• Haku was apparently stronger than Zabuza, as Zabuza stated that over time, Haku's jutsu skills eventually surpassed that of his own.

Now, discussion pertaining to names and the etymology of names always go within the article around the first paragraph in paranthesis (hence my edit). The second statement doesn't make much sense to me, and at the very least needs to be clarified or cited. The third statement, I believe, is of importance to an encyclopedic article. Outlooks, opinions, and reactions are not 'trivial'. If you feel as though fan opinion should not be in the article, this needs to be taken out of the trivia section as well, or at the very least cited. Other pop-culture articles have sections regarding fan reactions to particular elements of that item. The last fact sort of just hangs there, and doesn't say much or add much to the article as a whole. Wikipedia is not a resevoir of useless facts. My first inclination with ALL of these items was to incorperate rather than just cut them out. That's why it might seem 'scattered'. Please assume good faith. CaveatLector^Talk 06:30, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, Haku did wear a women's gown and let his hair down when "he" first met Naruto. He looked so much like a woman, even Naruto couldn't tell he was male. Link 486

9:08 A.M., September 24th, 2006.

If it were all in the first paragraph, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 07:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

their has been to reverts and changes made to this section i think its turned into a edit war in my opinon the section is relevent but i have tried not to get too involved i have seen the section reverted 4 times already get a mojority vote to see if should stay or somehing just end it NekrosKoma 16:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with NekrosKoma, I find that the sexuality section clears up a lot of rumours and gossip that have long surrounded Haku's sex for quite some time. I don't see why there shouldn't be a section with this title, and I see that there are other people who agree with this.

--Power level (Dragon Ball) ^{(Hey you, wanna talk to me... | Hey, look at what I just did...) 18:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)}

This site isn't a place for rumors and gossip. It's a place for verifiable facts. If it has no sources, it doesn't belong. Nemu 18:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Wrong, the Sexuality section clears up all of those rumours and gossips and whatnot. And by the way, not everything in that section falls under W:NOR, so what you can do is make adjustable changes to make it seem like a lot less speculation and more specification, rather than always reverting it that is.

--Power level (Dragon Ball) ^{(JUST TALK TO ME!!!!!!! | Whoa, did I do that?) 18:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)}

simply removing it because it has no sources is not enough to say it doesnt belong NekrosKoma 18:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is. There's also the fact that it's only an opinion. It can be looked at as many different things. If I were to put "Haku wanted to be Zabuza's tool because he actually pictured himself as a hammer", it would be reverted. Why? Because it's one way of analyzing it with no source. I could pull up the same sort of "proof" this has, but it would still be reverted. WP:OR, WP:NEU, and WP:V all have points that say this shouldn't be here. Nemu 18:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

then you should blank the paragraph before that since it doesn't cite sources and sounds like a opinion NekrosKoma 21:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You know very well that section isn't opinion. It's a summary. Don't use non-sequitors to make your argument valid. The sexuality section, however well it may explain Haku's odd tendancies, is still original research. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I am kind of pointing to the fact that Nemu seems to be simply saying that the section is completely wrong when it could be right though i will admit that the section would seem more important if it cited sources but then according to his logic as see from the way he behaving then if it has no sources then its wrong and in that case it would apply to the entire article, thus invalidating all of it yet he seems so inclined to focus on this one section NekrosKoma 21:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

That section has no sources. It's original research because nothing of the sort is mentioned by the show. The summary has its roots firmly in the material, and can be verified easily. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

This issue is a moot point. All the important points brought upon in the Sexuality Seciton have already been added to the body of the article through various edits.This editing war is useless. I don't think that his sexuality garnered a special section anyway. Let the reader /viewer form their own opinion of Haku's sexuality, just show the evidence, which I think the current version of the article does (sans Sexualtiy Section).Stupidhumanzz 09:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

With your latest edit, I am now perfectly content. Everything there, minus the opinion, has been merged. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 10:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

*sigh* I am fine with sexuality not having a specific section. I created the section because I didn't see a way to nicely integrate the information into main body of the article. I think the article's history (and current state, for that matter) show how virulently Wikipedia editors want to remove mentions of homosexuality or transexuality from articles covering their beloved characters. Let me be perfectly clear, because I obviously have not been before: The reason why I can only REVERT the BLANKING of the section is because I live a REAL LIFE outside of Wikipedia that requires my attention almost 24/7. I have AT MOST 15 minutes each day to check my watchlist on the wiki and look over articles. When somebody blanks a section because 'people won't improve it', the logic doesn't quite plan out. I still feel that section didn't contain ANY opinion whatsoever, and that if it were, say, about Haku having a particular, demonstrated power or jitsu, there wouldn't have been people clawing for its removal. So goes the world, and so has my ability to assume good faith taken another hit. CaveatLector^Talk 03:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to be subtle about this, so be forewarned. You're being paranoid. Not everything has to be an attack on homosexuality, yet you treat basically every instance you can find in such a manner. You're the one who needs to assume good faith, and these complaints about "your" good faith taking hits are guilt trips at best. Furthermore, your lack of editing time is no excuse for your behavior. Commenting takes just as much time as reverting, yet you do the latter far more. You had the time to open up a mediation case, which is time you could have spent contributiong to discussion. The section pushed a point of view, however, subtlely. Better it be gone. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image of Haku's death

True, WP is not censored; however, Haku's death in the anime is far less graphic than that in the manga. Not to mention, it comes in color as well. Any chance we can change the image here? 75.40.122.131 00:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

If you can find that death sequence, feel free to upload it over the current image. I'm working on getting versions of every episode, but I have quite a few episodes to get copies of. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 00:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm guessing no one likes uncut manga images, so should only anime images be the ones placed in the articles? Power level (Dragon Ball) (Talk to me... | I just contributed) 12:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see a coloured version of that manga pic up instead... Hmmm, wonder why no one has done a coloured version of that one yet? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.228.148.27 (talk)

Even if there were a colored version of the manga image, it wouldn't be used as it would qualify as fan art. ~SnapperTo 03:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category (again)

TTN, please note on the category page for LGBT comic characters that the description says 'have been or PORTRAYED as being'. Evidence from the story shows that Haku is clearly transgendered and/or gay. Please stop reverting, and do NOT blank entire sections. CaveatLector^Talk 21:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

While I'm not about to go as far as that, the section is a decent analysis of a particular aspect of the character. I see no particular reason to delete it. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 21:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The section on his sexuality seems to be good, but in the end, it's still origninal research. OR isn't allowed, so it should just be removed. Nemu 21:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The entire article is original research in that case, as nothing is cited. And once again LOOK AT THE CATEGORY PAGE. It specifically includes those PORTRAYED as LGBT, even if it is not specifically stated. CaveatLector^Talk 22:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

That's just a cop out on your part. Most of the articles is based on the direct observation of the series. The sexuality is research based on those obseravtions, making it original. He isn't depicted as a gay person. It's just an opinion until Kishimoto says it. Opinions don't belong on the site. Nemu 22:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so why should the paragraph remain? It's OR and speculation. I could easily write a paragraph about how Orochimaru is a pedophile(though, not worded as well), and it would be reverted for being baseless. It would have the same sort of "proof" that this article has, so why should this one be kept? Nemu 01:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm actually tired of reverting people blanking it. Whatever relevant parts are in there can be merged. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] One-handed seals

The article says that he's the only one who can perform them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Itachi as well? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.173.6.67 (talk • contribs) .

No, he doesn't. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

My mistake, however in episode 82, he seems to be performing one-handed seals disguised by shuriken. Go to about 6:30 into the episode to see what I mean. I fully accept that I'm probably wrong, but he seems to have some sort of gimmick going on. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.173.6.67 (talk • contribs) .

They were just a distraction. He had already performed the seals. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 07:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Then, howcome Itachi could use a one FINGER genjutsu on Naruto during the "rescue Gaara" arc? If he could do that, then I see no reason to believe that he can't make one-handed seals.

Some jutsu don't require handseals to perform. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

What, if I may ask, do you base THAT statement on? Btw, did we ever see when Itachi performed the handseals during his fight with Kakashi (he used a B-rank suiton ninjutsu but he still didn't seem to perform any seals, right)?

Rasengan. I rest my case. Not all jutsu require handseals to perform. Itachi's single use of water jutsu was done very quickly. Kakashi was able to follow the seals, but couldn't keep up. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, rasengan has been the only jutsu this far to not require seals, can you name any more techniques that do not require seals? If you DO come up with one, I'll throw in the towel. When Itachi fought Kurenai, she used seals to activate her genjutsu, but when Itachi countered her genjutsu he didn't use, or rather, he COULDN'T use two hand seals, since he was pretty much bound up... How do you explain that instance?

Like talking to a wall. Look, you're not going to be able to prove he can se one-handed seals. Know why? Because he never does. Not one scene shows him using one handed seals. Pointing doesn't count, using the Sharingan doesn't count, and movements we can't see don't count. Haku is the only one capable of using one-handed seals. End of story. 17:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

So is it that Haku can perform one-handed seals on any jutsu or on specific jutsu like his ice needle thing?

[edit] "Haku's Sexuality" revisited

Hi, I'm here in response to Caveat's request for informal mediation regarding the section on Haku's sexuality. I've looked over the talk page and the article history, and have a few more questions:

1. Is there still a dispute or are people basically happy with the current version?
2. If there is a dispute, would the people who object to the current section be willing to offer or consider some compromise, and, if so, what and why?
3. Are there any sources for this section that could bolster the discussion of the manga and anime themselves? For instance, I know Kishimoto does a fair number of interviews, and some of the manga collections must have introductions and the like. Has the Haku-Zabusa relationship ever been discussed in print by a reliable source?

Thanks, TheronJ 14:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

1. There's a dispute, but CL has refused to adress it many times, saying that he has no time (Though this is over two or three weeks). I assume that he doesn't want to because I find his view on homosexuality to be a POV that clouds his judgement, which, as seen on his talk page, makes him assume bad faith for some reason.
2. There isn't any way for a compromise. He either provides sources or it shouldn't be up.
3. No, there's never been any sort of hint by Kishimoto or the animation studio that Haku might have a relationship with Zabuza. I belive that he's most likely gay, but that doesn't change the fact that it was never stated. It's just an assumption by the fans. Unless an official source states it, or soccer moms suddenly try to get it off the air, there is no need to mention it. Nemu 18:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

1. I agree with Nemu does CL seems to avoiding the discussion thus making me question his exact motive
2. I do think that some of the information in the section is true (some not all) though unsourced
3. no I have not heard anything from the creator

in my opinion really the section just states the obvious but then leaves it up for interpretation because of its lack of sources which could be easily found and i will try to find them when i get home NekrosKoma 18:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem isn't getting sources for the actions. The problem is finding sources for the conclusion. While it may be apparent to us, there is still room for interpretation as you said. That's why it shouldn't go up. There are various explanations for his actions, and unless they are sourced, they're all OR and equally valid. That's why we need sources that he's actually gay. Nemu 19:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Which don't exist as far as I've seen. Something that important wouldn't go unmentioned. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 19:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

ok i think i understand you Nemu though in in a way it is relevant but it is too open for interpretation i don't have much of problem now if it is removed, now you just have to deal with caveat if he still has a problem, and one thing Someguy0830 you arguments are too demanding and one sided for the record i don't like you. NekrosKoma 21:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

And I have no particular feelings for you to one extreme or the other. Aren't we glad we got that off our chests? You not liking me has nothing to do with this, and I don't even see why you'd bring it up. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

because i perfer to tell people i dont like so they know. NekrosKoma 22:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Nekros, I'm sure your intentions are good, but Wikipedia discourages comments like "I don't like you" -- in my experience, they don't really help to reach agreement and build the encyclopedia. I personally find both you and Someguy delightful, however. TheronJ 22:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Haku's sexuality - principles

A couple suggestions:

1. If possible, let's all try to avoid personalizing the debate. Even if true (and I have no opinion), it doesn't do any good to say "CaveatLector is biased" or "Someguy is a wise*ss." Everyone's doing a great job explaining why they hold their opinions, so lets see if we can work with that.
2. Without trying to prejudge the debate, let me suggest some relevant policies and guidelines:

1. Per Wikipedia's civility requirements, let's all bend over backwards to be nice to each other, especially to the people who don't deserve it. (I find that spending a few seconds thinking of something nice to say along with my criticism usually goes far).
2. The relevant section of the original research does say that it's inappropriate to infer controversial conclusions from other data; you need to wait for a reliable source to make the inference. I think it's possible to have a debate on just how far the rule goes. On the one hand, most editors probably wouldn't have a problem, for example, with the suggestion that Waylon Smithers might possibly be gay, even if there were no published material discussing it. (On the other hand, if someone dug in their heels and demanded reliable sources for the idea that Smithers might be gay, the correct action might be to just find the sources).
3. Wikipedia's requirements regarding verifiability, reliable sources, and explicit citations to references mean that technically, any challenged sentence should get a citation, at least to a specific episode of the anime or issue of the manga (or "primary source") and preferably to some newspaper story, book, or article about the fact in question (i.e., "secondary source"). This kind of strict citation is rare in pop culture articles, but it often serves to resolve disputes.

Next up, some suggestions. TheronJ 22:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

With Smithers, I think the whole anit-gay drug says that he's gay. Even if it didn't, he's a lot different than Haku. The writers definitely want people to see a connection. With Haku, we really don't know at all what Kishimoto is wanting people to think without him telling us. We could easily be reading too deap. Nemu 23:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

1. I have a life, a job, classes at night, and graduate school applications to complete. This is not in response to you, Theron (thanks, btw, for taking the time to come in on this). As is quite clear, I have many more important things to spend my time and energy on than a lengthy circular discussion with the editors here. This is why I haven't participated in a while. Not because I am 'avoiding conversation'.
2. The reason why I assume bad faith when people call my 'view' on homosexuality a 'POV', Nemu, is because my 'view' is that I am a human being who deserves the same dignity and respect as a heterosexual does, and hence so does each person who is homosexual, and hence we should not delete references to homosexuality within the artistic contexts in which it appears.
3. The article, if you'll notice, does not SAY whether or not Haku is gay. It says that Haku is transgendered, which he is, by definition. It then says that there is debate over his sexuality (which any google search will confirm, and which the other editors admit), and then it presents two specific instances from episodes that suggest such a relationship. It also states that no outright admission has been made regarding this aspect of his character. This is completely in line with Wikipedia policies, and I feel that the need for justification should lie in the information being excluded from the article.
4. Nemu on my talk page, has claimed that the paragraph 'looks neutral at first' but 'hardly is due to your bias'. I can only assume that by 'your bias' he means the fact that I'm gay, which is disturbing. Other than the cries of WP:OR, which are hardly accurate because nothing in the paragraph is unverifiable (so we should cite episodes? so the entire article itself should now be revamped with episode citations for all the information that's in it), there seems little reason not to include the fact that Haku had a strong emotional connection with Zabuza, regardless of its nature. CaveatLector^Talk 01:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

1. I'm just saying that you haven't been very helpful at all. It just takes a quick glance at one of the policies one day, and then a response to my points on another day. If you don't have ten minutes of free time in three weeks, I feel really, really sorry for you.
2. Your general view is fine, but I'm really seeing a push for him to be gay no matter what. Maybe it's just me.
3. The paragraph has the undertone of saying Haku is gay. The "nothing ever stated" type of stuff really never hides it. Once again, maybe it's just me. I don't know. And again, can we really conclude that he was cross dressing? I haven't seen it for awhile, but was whatever he was wearing (kimono?) asexual? Did he have female foot ware, nail polish or lipstick on?
4. By bias, I mean your assertion that he's gay backed up by your view on homosexuality. It seems a little pushy to me. You can cite what happened, but you cannot cite the conclusion. That's the problem. Having an obsession with him does not make him instantly gay. There are other conclusions that one could draw. Why wouldn't the connection they have be mentioned? That's there and verifiable. The opinion that he is gay is not.Nemu 02:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, he does wear nail polish, so one of three down! Also, for the whole cross-dressing thing, the thing he wears over his topknot appears to be made of frilly lace, but other than that I don't see how his typical outfit could be called transvestite. Treima 02:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions for sexuality proponents

CaveatLector, and any likeminded people, if I may make a couple suggestions:

1. The absolutely simplest way to resolve this is to find a reliable source discussing Haku's sexuality. If you can find something that qualifies -- an interview with Kishimoto, the introduction to a manga collection, the commentary track on a DVD, a scholarly article, a newspaper article about people dressing up as Haku and Zabusa at gay pride parades -- and establish that your source qualifies as a reliable source, then the debate will tighten up and the article will probably be improved. This may take some work, but is often easier than you think, especially if you read or speak Japanese. Somebody on one of the Naruto fanboards may be able to point you to something, or a good reference librarian may be able to help you. (Probably a Japanese librarian, I think).
2. Alternately, let's discuss the information that you can source to specific episodes/issues. Without making any assumptions, what are the statements of absolute fact that are important to you?

Thanks, TheronJ 22:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions for sexuality opponents

Nemu and likeminded editors, what would you like to see in the article about (1) Zabuza and Haku's relationship (not necessarily sexual - by "relationship," I mean master/student, friend, or whatever); and (2) the way in which Haku is presented? What facts (i.e. that Haku wears women's clothing, that Naruto mistakes him for a girl, or his devotion to Zabuza) do you think are relevant to the article, and in what context?

Thanks, TheronJ 22:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Only what can actually be seen should be in the article. We know he has some sort of strong feelings for Zabuza, enough that he wants Zabuza to use him and even gave up his life for him. That's all we should say. We don't need to alude to anything whether it's sexual love, a twisted parental sort of love, a longing to belong to someone, and so on. The reader can come their own conclusion. That and the mention of Haku being very feminine should be enough. I'm still not sure that was fully women's clothing or not. Nemu 23:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Didn't it confirm in the character book that Haku is gay? I'm not so sure about the Haku/Zabuza relationship, however.MoChan 23:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a link to any translated pages or some that we could get translated? I sort of doubt it actually did seeing as people still argue about it. Nemu 23:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The databooks don't confirm that. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sexuality mediation compromise proposals

Based on the discussion above, I have two related compromise proposals.

1) Process: Let's start with a "clean slate" My preference would be to "start over" with regard to any personal interaction.

• Nemu, if possible, I would recommend that you not accuse CaveatLector of being biased, or suggest that he is wrong because of his personal perspective. I have no idea if you're right or not; I just don't think it's helpful to tell people that you think they're biased. Your opinion that Caveat's proposed edits are original research appears to be the core of your position; it doesn't get any stronger or weaker if we enter into a discussion of whether Caveat is objective.
• Similarly, I understand that it's frustrating that Caveat doesn't have as much time to edit as you, and that he/she doesn't agree with you on WP:OR. The timestream thing is unavoidable; some people edit an hour a week, others an hour a day. The disagreement is hopefully resolvable, one way or the other.
• Caveat, I can see why you would be offended by Nemu's suggestion that you're wrong because you're pro-gay (if you are), and I've tried to address the issue. My request would be that we start fresh - Nemu tries to avoid personalizing the debate, and you forgive him/her for anything that's happened to date.

I was planning on it, but I really didn't feel like leaving his points unaddressed. People do that too often. I gave my opinion, so I won't bring it up anymore. Nemu 21:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

2) Summary of problem

Please let me know if I've gotten anything wrong:

• The two sides to this dispute agree on many basic points about the fictional character Haku. They fundamentally agree:
  • that Haku is presented as an androgynous or feminine boy. For example, one of the lead characters, Naruto, mistakes Haku for female;
  • that Haku is extraordinarily close to his sensei, Zabuza, to the point that Haku refers to protecting Zabuza's "flawless body" from harm;
  • that the Naruto anime and manga never explicitly identify whether Haku is transgender or whether his relationship with Zabuza is a romantic one.

• The two sides disagree regarding whether, consistent with WP:OR, the article may state that Haku is transgender or is presented as transgender (strong form);
• The two sides also disagree regarding whether the article may state the conclusion in a weaker form, such as:
  • "The presentation of Haku suggests the possibility that Haku is transgender or homosexual" (middle form) or
  • "It is not clear from the presentation whether Haku is transgender and/or engaged in a romantic relationship with Zabuza" (weak form)

Is that fair? Thanks, TheronJ 21:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Seems fine to me. Nemu 21:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More compromise proposals

I'm having trouble getting past the basic conflict and wanted to lay out a few more ideas, to see if we can get to some acceptable compromise. If I understand the situation correctly:

A) CaveatLector wants the Haku article to include a discussion of Haku's sexuality.

B) Nemu opposes any discussion of sexuality as original research unless it (1) directly restates something that happened in the anime, manga or (2) it cites a reliable secondary source. Nemu's opposition includes fairly general statements such as "Haku's androgynous appearance and close relationship with Zabuza suggest transgender or gay issues", but not direct factual statements (if accurate) such as "Haku is presented as fairly androgynous in appearance" or "Haku displays an extremely close emotional relationship with Zabuza."

Here are some compromise possibilities:

1. Include a section on Haku's sexuality that extends to the limit Nemu will accept. (One possibility would be for Nemu to draft the strongest proposal he can see himself accepting). (My guess is that Nemu won't go for this.)

1. Don't include the section, but work together to draft complete descriptions of Haku's appearance, clothes, and relationship with Zabuza in the other sections. (My guess is that Caveat won't go for this one.)

1. Try some other dispute resolution procedures, like a request for comment or straw poll.

Thoughts? Thanks, TheronJ 21:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

When I first deleted it a couple days ago, I tried to think of somewhere any of it can go, but I'm having trouble figuring out just where it would be included.

"Haku's character carries many overtones of transgenderism, specifically in regards to his androgynous appearance and cross-dressing tendencies."

I find that line to be the only directly salvagable line there. The Zabuza obsession thing is already noted in the first section. – Someguy0830 (T | C)

• Nemu, would you be willing to include the sentence Someguy discusses as an obvious conclustion from the primary source, or do you consider it to be Original Research? Thanks, TheronJ 21:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I have never seen Haku cross-dressing... If you guys are refering to the instance where he is dressed in a yukata, then I would like to point out that the yukata is a gender neutral garment... Yes, Haku may look like a cross-dresser to a westener, but the western POV is not globaly correct... It doesn't matter to me weather he IS a cross-dresser or not, just pointing out a few, all too often, overlooked facts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.228.148.172 (talk) 20:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] An incorrect statement, perhaps?

The line "The fact that Haku has never (intentionally) killed another human is a testament to his purity" is a little off... If Haku didn't kill others, I kinda get the feeling that that would've contradicted with Zabuza's murderous nature (beeing a ninja and all) thus not acting as the "perfect tool" that Zabuza wanted him to be... It could be argued that he didn't "willingly" kill people, but he warned Naruto & Sasuke that, if they thretened his dream to make Zabuza's dream come true, he would not hestitate to kill them... Unless someone can come up with a good reason to keep the text as it is, I'd like to request that the text is slightly modified. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.228.148.45 (talk) 17:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC).