Talk:Habiru

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This article is looking excellent these days. Well done everyone for building upon my stub. Zestauferov 02:38, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Recent discussion

Should Habiru/Sources be linked from this page somewhere? +sj+ 10:28, 2004 Mar 6 (UTC) Awesome, thanks! +sj+ 13:59, 2004 Mar 7 (UTC)

[edit] Eber

From Mendenhall, George E. The Tenth Generation: The Origins of the Biblical Tradition, The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1973:

"...When one sees that the Hebrew word 'eber means a "party" in the legal sense in I Samuel 14:40, and, on the other, that the personal name 'Eber is assigned two sons, one of whom is Peleg meaning "division" (Gen. 10:25) - the other, Yoqtān, alone is assigned descendants who are largely identifiable with South Arabic tribes - it seems evident that here is a case of popular etymology. This is further borne out by two facts - first, that a derivative of PLG had already occured in the Song of Deborah (Judges 5:15, 16) as a subdivision of the tribe of Reuben, and, second, that Peleg does not have any association with the types of onomastic traditions of the second millenium B.C. as far as we know, but in the genealogy of Genesis 11:16-30 every name occurs in our sources, either as a place or personal name, beginning with Reu, the son of Peleg. To reconstruct the process we might proceed as follows. In the tenth to ninth centuries, to which the tradition as we have it may be assigned, the following facts were known:

1. The term 'pr was a designation applied to various groups in the old traditions, the shift from p/ to b/ having already taken place in the dialect of the writer.
2. Those 'pr groups were in part closely associated with the origins of the Israelites; part were not but became the nations of Edom, Moab and Ammon.
3. Genealogies and tribal relations from remote periods were still current in Israelite tradition.
4. The tradition regarded both the 'br groups and the tribal groups as closely related.

The process of reasoning may have been as follows: since the tribes are related to the 'br, but the tradtition does not trace them farther back than Yoqtān, the 'Ibrî must be the origin, and the name 'Eber the ancestor. A variant tradition regarded the same groups as descendants of Shem, duly recorded in Genesis 10:21. The line which led to Israel, Moab, Ammon and Edom is a section, division ( = Peleg), which corresponds to the fact that Abraham separated from the others in Aram Naharaim. Later, the P source inserted other surviving traditions connecting Peleg with Abraham. The curious omission of Israel itself in the table of nations can perhaps be explained on the ground that everyone would have recognized in 'Eber the Israelite ancestor. Therefore, may we not conclude that the explanation of 'Ibrî as followed by a subsection, Peleg, corresponding to the Hebrew peluggâ? The similarity in religious, legal and political status (or lack of it) over centuries between the Israelites and proto-Israelites on the one hand, and the 'Apiru as we have here described the term, would certainly place the burden of proof on those who wish to separate them."

Hence my recent edits. Fire Star 20:04, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Older discussion

The Tigunani prism so confidently mentioned in this entry, as if we all knew about it ("Ah yes! the Tigunami prism indeed!") gets just one hit from google. If "Tigunani" is an archaeological site, it gets no other mention at google aside from this: https://listhost.uchicago.edu/pipermail/ ane/2002-February/000553.html I highly recommend a hit at http://www.world-destiny.org/ for a full dose of the flavor of this Habiru entry! Wetman 19:13, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

At last! Thank you for Tikunani Prism! So it's real! Wetman 14:55, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Yes its real as I told you all along. Why do you love to niggle so much every time you have never heard of something. Do you think this is what education by peer-pressure means? Taunting style like schoolboys in the schoolyard? Could you please try a different tone with me. Notice I am asking politely. Zestauferov 15:44, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Turco-Slavonic peoples? "Terms possibly derived from peoples with a related ethnicon amongst later Turko-Slavonic peoples indicates these groups associated them with vulturey & the supernatural (see Upyr)." Does any reader recognize that Zestauferov has discovered that Turks and Slavs both have vampire myths? I think that's the hint from Upyr. Upyr? What, you need "Upyr" explained? Let Zestauferov tell you about the Turco-Slavonic peoples, too! both the "later" onmes and the earlier ones! Wetman 20:17, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I've put this on VfD. -- The Anome 20:23, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Why does everyone immediatly vote for deletion instead of attempting to edit articles? Honestly the insecurity behind such actions just screams out. Go on have a little courage, but if you really don't have enough knowledge to correct it then how can you dare to say you know enough to declare it deletable? For those who do not know already the first thing Wetman does in the morning is check to see what contributions I have made in order to go discredit them and encourage others (lacking conviction himself) to delete them. A very sad state of affairs.Zestauferov 02:25, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Would Wetman please discuss why he thinks his link is relevant?Zestauferov 08:04, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

ies(I inadvertently deleted the Votes for Deletion notice. Sorry folks. I hope readers will look at the only source for "Hetto-Iberians" on the Web, at http://www.world-destiny.org/ and judge for themselves why Zestauferov is so anxious to suppress this link. Wetman 19:22, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC) )

The page you are refering to is http://www.world-destiny.org/a35ibr.htm and it is not my fault they have mixed scientific hypothesis with fiction. The Canaanite dialect called Hebrew or any other Afroasiatic language was not adopted by any significant portion of Protoiberians until much later for a start. Documented Habiru names ARE Hurrian (thus may be termed Hetto-Iberian), but the indications are that "drop-outs" from various city-states and unrelated tribes joined in with them to form what can either be termed a social caste or a non-exclusive cultural group of the levant. But with Wetman, if he has no idea about a topic ignorance rules. Acadenics beware no-one can know of something he has never heard of.Zestauferov 06:38, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)


Sources for a sane Hapiru article:

From The Oxford History of the Biblical World, page 72. [1]

The amarna texts...

"mention a troublesome group of people found in ancient Syria-Palestine called the 'Apiru/'Abiru or Hapiru/Habiru. Scholars eagerly equated these Apiru with bibliclal 'ibri , or "Hebrew", and at first thought that they had found confirming, independent evidence of the invading Hebrews under Joshua. As more texts were uncovered througout the Near East, however, it became clear that these Apiru were found throughout most of the Fertile Crecent .... during the second millennium. They had no common ethnic or national affiliations; they spoke no common language; and they normally led a marginal and sometimes lawless existence on the fringes of settled society. The Apiru constituted, in effect, a loosely defined, inferior social class composed of shifting and shifty population elements without secure ties to settled communities. Apiru are frequently encountered in texts as outlaws, mercenaries, and slaves. Scholarly opinion remains divided as to whether there is an etymological relationship between Apiru and 'ibri, though many scholars thing that the Apiru were a component of proto-Israel"

See ISBN 0195139372

--Ben

From Robert Drews's excellent The Coming of the Greeks is some mention of SA.GAZ, as well as the notion of "hapiru" as a term for mercenaries serving the hittites: See page 60, ISBN 0691029512 [2]

--Ben

Ben you have caused me to be the brunt of no-end of prejudice thanks to your initial references to Hetto-Iberians as nonsense. Anyway thankyou for the references which basically back up the currebt form of the article which although not being that bad now looks like it will not survive the deletio process.Zestauferov 06:54, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)


Sorry about that, Zestauferov. I'm arguing to keep this article now, and may try to do a rewrite myself. --Ben (Incidentally, how do you get the full date readout to show up after your sig? Is there a single variable that'll print that?)
Well its gone now and it really wasn't bad in its final form. But someone incapable of editing and opposed to the "community of editors" philosophy of wiki has gotten their way so that they can massage their own egos by re-writing it and putting it on their self-indulgent list of "Articles I have written" which seriously taunts the policy of wiki not being a place for self-publication.Zestauferov 01:21, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Thank you for the Oxford History citation, Ben. That's a good basis, even if you are personally attacked for it! I've added your Reference and described the Oxford scholars' conclusions to the entry, without intruding my own opinions. All complaints should be addressed to Oxford University. Wetman 22:44, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Who attacked you for that Ben?Zestauferov 07:43, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Undeleted after VfD

I think I may have deleted this page after VfD in error, since one user emailed me requesting a re-listing for deletion. The page has changed considerably since the first vote was cast, so I am unable to determine consensus and I am undeleting it so that they can relist if they wish. silsor 01:44, Feb 17, 2004 (UTC)


Readers can catch up on the cntroversey here Talk:Habiru/Delete. I was surprised to see following his last posting on the subject that Llywrch was the one to remove the VdF notice. Guess its his way of saying sorry.Zestauferov 01:18, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Oh I see Llywrch has done his best to "re-write" the entry (which despite a lot of chopping about reads virtually the same) perhaps that is his way of correcting my last assumption.Zestauferov 07:46, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'm starting work on the rewrite. I'm collecting quotations from mainstream sources at User:Benwbrum/Hapiru. Benwbrum 14:43, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)


Another re-write? Can't you just edit-in new info? Wiki is supposed to be a community of editors not re-writers. By adding info there is even less chance of simply re-phrasing what the experts have already said better and more chance of originality. Anyway the list of quotes will look very good I hope but beware of anti-semetic views Hebrews were nomads so were Habiru so we can see Roux's bias immediately.Zestauferov 15:14, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'm just collecting quotes for now -- who knows what the article will look like once I'm done with that? Benwbrum 15:18, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I don't think you're interpreting Roux quite correctly, but lemme get the quotes up and then I'll try to look into what you're saying. Benwbrum 15:18, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I just noticed that Llywrch edited out an important observation. Religionists oppose the identification with Habiru because since the translation of the Tikunani Prism in 1996 the latter have been proven to have originally been an Hurrian group before they became a mixed social cast (which came first the chicken or the egg in this case the term Habiru used to describe the gypsies of the day or an original tribal group afterwhich all gypsy types became named?) while such people believe that hebrew is "the sacred language of eden" and thus the idea that the proto Hebrews did not always speak this canaanite dialect is too much for their belief systems. It should be mentioned that research from the camp which led to the insistance that Habiru was just a term applied to social drop-outs was originally to counter the argument against a connection with Hebrews based upon the Hurrian names. The evolution of the studies surrounding them is like watching a tennis match between the two (they are vs they aren't) camps which has resulted in the at times contradictory current view amongst scholars. At least that is what I have gathered since I have not read absolutely everything. I simply opted for the middle camp (which some say is a "cop-out") fusing the two that they were Hebrews but the proto-Hebrews did not have the same language as the latter ones and that they were originally an ethnic group but soon became very mixed, just as travellers have evolved out of romanies in the UK. Zestauferov 15:36, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I removed the following:

Georgian historians classify them as ProtoIberian and believe those "the sons of noble Iberes" Dionysius Periestis mentioned in the Garden of the Hesperides "whence tin comes" were descendants of the Habiru who remained in the vicinity of the Caucasus.

In this mishmash mixing east and west (the Gardens of the Hesperides are in the farthest West: so are Iberians: but Iberians are also Caucasus-Iberians: throw in a little tin: invent a fake classical author Dionysius Periestis misspelled, with a quote I can trace through google to http://www.lauralee.com/news/truehistory.htm Laura Lee has lots to tell you about the crypto-history of the worlds, extraterrestrial interventions Atlantis and "Dionysus Periestis" Very entertaining but not Wikipediable. Wetman 14:55, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How do you know if it is misspelled if the name is a fake one? Maybe you know more than you are letting on here? All I was trying to do was clear up the last dodgy part left in the article. All I know is I knew a Georgian historian who said that Iberes was the ancestral partiarch created by the greeks for the Iberians (maybe he got it from Lauralee's site -who knows!) we were talking about Josephus and Thobelites at the time. I found that quote by accident earlier today (it seems familiar though) and thought it might be the one. Geez you'd think that considering everytime I come up with a source you might get off my case a little. Give me time and I will find out if it is bogus or not. Zestauferov 15:35, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How? Because it's not Greek, is it, Because it doesn't bring up hits on google. I never know more than I say. I usually know less! I didn't look to see whose text it was. Why would that be relevent?. But Greeks created patriarchs? Did they charge for the service? There is nothing about "Iberes" at the Perseus Digital Library site http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/ However, I will say that I'm glad the Tikunani Prism has a little background now. Why was it so difficult to correct the spelling (which kept us from finding out what was being talked about)?
I just don't get the point of making up authoritative-sounding doubletalk at Wikipedia? Wetman 16:19, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What are you getting at with that last comment? Not another snark I hope? The reason for the spelling mistrake is because I was not working from romanised letters in my mind. It took a while before I could contact someone in the UK to check my library for me. With regards to Iberes, from the first time I came to wiki I have enjoyed putting info into articles which I know about only through hearsay. Seven out of ten times to my delight someone can come along and correct the info to the original reference. The only problem sometimes is deciding which article to put info which crosses over several areas. There is nothing fantastic about the idea that Greeks believed the Caucasian Iberians were descended from a certain "Noble Iberes" and it is the term "Noble Iberes" which has stuck in my mind and which I first placed under the Heberite entry back in September in the hopes that someone would flesh it out a little. However there comes a time even for me to decide whether something I have heard may be totally erroneous or so corrupt in its transmission that it has become virtually impossible to decipher its origins. If Iberes is a corruption of Erebus and if Erebus is sometimes called "Noble" then that could be the source in which case that time would have come with this reference. P.S. far too many people here allow the scope of knowledge to be ruled by what google turns up, you shouldn't live by the google test really it limits your mind's potential so much.

Lets remember:
  • not all scientific literature on every subject is publised online.
  • not all online material is registered with google.
  • not all scientific literature is written in English.
  • not all scientific literature uses the singular English forms of certain terms.
  • a hit on google does not identify the origin of an idea.

Zestauferov 17:06, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks to Levzur for finally clearing up that problem despite his contribution. Zestauferov 01:15, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I tried to add a factual description of the sources on which this entire subject stands, with dates to help the younger readers who still don't have the Hittite king lists committed to memory ;-). The data is still very incomplete and surely there are errors, since the data was gathered mostly from the Net. Please help as you can...
Jorge Stolfi 17:32, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Speaking of the Net, what should we make of this:
https://listhost.uchicago.edu/pipermail/ane/2003-February/006390.html
Jorge Stolfi

So there is a root word in Semitic & Egyptian (but not necessarily Afroasiatic in origin) word with the basic meaning of Supply (Egyptian: Provide, Canaanite: serve, Akkadian: feed, Ugaritic: Rations) which would fit as an etymology for Lipinski's Ubru as an Ugaritic designation for forigners. As for the question of whether there is a connection here with the Habiru, the term could come from the enslavement of Habiru as servants, but the connections seem to be straining, a little too much and may just be coincidental. It is interesting that in the near Asian agglutinative languages the `BR root etymology (much more satisfactory for the habiru's gypsy-like status) suggests wanderer/vagabond/vagrant/migrant/outlaw/freeman. Zestauferov 04:01, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ya as a Hurrian deity?

Is there any evidence for this, as the article claims? I was under the impression that the Hebrew Yahweh (also called Yah and Yahu in proper names) was actually cognate to Yaw, the Canaanite sea god, Yaho, the Chaldean moon god, (also called Sin (mythology)), and Iah, the Egyptian moon god. These gods were all Afro-Asiatic in origin, not Hurrian.

[edit] Three recent edits

Three recent edits need to be made relevant to Habiru (Wetman 23:37, 16 September 2005 (UTC)).

  1. (One of the( ~1350 BC) el Amarna letters, EA 299, uses the term, " Men, SA GAZ ", actually "LÚ.SA.GAZ" ) (The same letters have "Mayor-Governors" calling themselves: X, the "Man" (of) City-Y, so this became a de-facto title?... "the Man (Town)", the "LÚ (Town)". Is this how the "Hebrews", the "Canaanites", the "pre-Hebrews"( = the "post-Ugarits"(hebrew speakers?)), became established in Canaan, at the end of Akhenaten's reign? )
  2. (In the el Amarna letters, it appears they were taking over the entire Canaan region(?), to the North and East especially?)
  3. (The word to appear in 196 BC(Rosetta Stone,etc.), the Greek "epiphanous", i.e. "Epiphany", has the block of hieroglyphs of PR - R - 'walking feet' /// Kings put the Grk.word "epiphanous"(Eþiphiņee) on their coins, they had "appeared" for the People.)

[edit] some more recent edits (20 April 2006)

So, I made a number of additions, mainly relying on Greenberg's collection of texts and translations; I corrected some figures and names that had been garbled or maliciously altered, using the same sources; and I rewrote or deleted some parts, which I suppose I should explain.

From the section on the Amarna letters, I deleted "The most significant ancient sources. . ." because that is a questionable assessment and not very informative in any case. One could say that they're the source that kicked off interest in the Habiru, that they're the most numerous surviving references from a single time and place, etc. . . . One could, but I didn't. I also deleted "found in the royal archives known as" because it was needless.

I replaced "tribes" with "groups" because as far as I'm aware, there was no indication in the letters that they were, in fact, tribes. This struck me as a very subtle slant, perhaps even an unconscious one, towards the Habiru=Hebrew thesis (the 12 Tribes, hint hint). I deleted ". . .that appear to have been nomads or semi-nomads. . ." because this is a subjective judgement (and also subtly slanted—hey, look who wandered in the desert before arriving in the region!) that at least ought to be cited to a source.

I rewrote the "shifting allegiances" bit to be a bit more specific about what they did, which was essentially fight as mercenaries for whoever paid them best.

From the section on Egyptian records, I deleted "(His son Ramesses II is traditionally equated with "the pharaoh" of Exodus, Moses's adversary.)" because it too was a slant towards the Habiru=Hebrew thesis, only not subtle this time.

I deleted

The Habiru name list on the Tikunani Prism (from Mesopotamia, about 1550 BC) indicates they were originally nothing more than a wandering tribe of Hurrians, but some argue for the disappearance of this ethnic distinction at a very early stage making them a non-exclusive ethnic group.

because perhaps this is one interpretation (though I've never encountered it), but it should be cited to whatever source is crazy enough to make the argument that they were originally a wandering tribe of Hurrians—earlier documents are full of Akkadian names. I'm not sure about attaching Greenberg to the remainder of the argument: he argues specifically against considering them any kind of ethnos, saying they should be considered more of a social class. (as in the last of the three interpretations.)

From the section on the Habiru=Hebrew thesis, I deleted "nomadic and semi-nomadic tribes"—a description that perhaps fits the Bible stories, but not the Hapiru of the Amarna letters. I added "loosely" because the descriptions don't match except in vague outline: about all they have in common is similar names, (roughly) similar locations, and the fact that both were violent. On comparison of the backgrounds and details, they fall apart.

I deleted "except that the Habiru core was originally Hurrian not Hebrew." from the same section because this is at best a flimsy interpretation, not a fact.

This was already quite a good article, but it seemed to suffer from a slight case of incoherence due to working over by at least two people with beliefs strong enough to blind them to neutrality—one holding the old Habiru=Hebrew thesis, the other some odd ideas about Hurrians and ethnicity in general. Anyway, I think I've improved things a bit, though more could of course be done.

--anonymous

[edit] Habiru disappear, Hebrews appear ?

Am I the only one to note that the probable disapearence of the Habiru/Hapiru falls at the same time of the rise of the proto Kingdom of Israel ? (ca -1200) And, I think the article, however well written, does not insist on the fact that the israelites/hebrews would have been seen as Habiru/Hapiru (because they were landless semitic tribes, often nomadic and sometimes brigands) from the main civilizations around.

[English is not my native language, sorry if I am unclear ! please correct me]

--Point well taken. However, we must realize that the absence of Apiru mentioned seems to coincide with the overall decline of the bronze age empires of Egypt, and Hattusa who would have kept records about the Apiru. The last Apiru effectively mentioned are some time around 1150 BC under Ramesses IV. Overall, it seems that even under the closest of scrutiny and new discoveries, the correlation between the Apiru and Hebrew becomes more and more evident.--71.222.48.14 02:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I strongly doubt the Habiru/Apiru were the Hebrews. They are now mentioned in Mesopotamia, the Levant (Syria, Lebanon, Jordan) and Egypt which is much too disparate for them to be the Hebrews. The point about Ramesses IV is not very valid because Ramesses IV had plans for ambitious and large scale monuments--after his father Ramesses III throughout Egypt--hence the need to recruit the Hapiru for his monumental work. After him, came a series of weak New Kingdom Pharaohs who had no such grandiose ambitions. Most were simply content to hang onto the remains of Egypt's Asiatic Empire which was slowly being lost and dealing with increasing internal unrest which led to much tomb robberies. Also, the Habiru are referred to as outlaws in texts as early as the 15th Century BC under the Egyptian king Tuthmose III. This date seems much too early for the Hebrews who toiled in the city of Raamses according to Exodus--presumably a reference to Ramesses II almost 200 years later. I think the Habiru is simply a social term for a group of undesirables or outlaws/bandits rather than a tribal or ethnic term due to the broad appearance of these unwanted people throughout the Fertile Crescent of Egypt, Mesopotamia and the Levant. Let's face it, the Jews can't be in three different places at once. But, this is just my personal opinion. Regards, Leoboudv 09:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

-- Please stop with the old argument of "they (israelites) cant be everywhere the apiru/habiru are mentioned". My point was that Hebrews were probably called Habiru by the surrounding empires. Not that all Habiru were hebrews. Also, I dont take the construction of Piramesses as a marker for the exodus. We all know that the Hebrew Bible was later edited during the Divided Kingdom and that Piramesses was built on the ruins of old Hyksos capitale. From the 15th century onward we have : the presence of Semites in Egypt and their expulsion, the destructions throughout Canaan, then the mentions of Habiru in Canaan, the Shasu in the desert and in 1210 BCE the written mention of Israelites living in Canaan. It is a valid theory that is gaining credibility since the "old consensus" (13th century exodus) is dying off. -- Squallgreg 06:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

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