Talk:Gwen Araujo

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Contents 1 Preposition for transgendered persons 2 Bias of article? 3 "Transwoman" versus "Transsexual" in article introduction 4 "Girl"? 5 Dispute template 6 Bias of article, continued 7 Pronunciation 8 Old name 9 Movie 10 Clan, Klan, or Church? 11 gender

[edit] Preposition for transgendered persons

I've actually posted on the manual of style before in regards to this issue - what preposition do we use to described pre-op transgendered persons? It's POV whichever way we decide, and if we go with their chosen gender instead of their physical one, it's factually debatable too. →Raul654 05:06, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

No, it's not. If it's good enough for the Associated Press, it's good enough for us. The pronouns in this article will get changed over my dead body. Ambi 05:13, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I personally don't care in the least, as long as our articles are (a) consistent and (b) clear, (which until I added the "male to female" statement, this article was absolutely not) →Raul654 05:18, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Ambi. There is already preexisting guidelines to use self identification, see Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Identity, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Sexology_and_Sexuality/Terminology, Wikipedia:Style_guide#Identity. Dysprosia 05:22, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Accepted medical, social, and psychological standards regarding transgendered persons are fairly clear - someone that presents as female is to be referred to by female pronouns. To do otherwise, is hateful, disrespectful, and demeaning. Legally, its still a grey area, but transexuality is beginning to be treated more as a birth defect - the apparent gender of the sexual organs does not match the prenatal development of the brain - a transwoman is most accurately considered to be a woman that due to a curse of nature happened to be born with a penis. Triona 05:24, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Unfortunately, sex is a biological fact, regardless of current political situations. Each cell of a male human has an XY chromosome, regardless of whether the person or the state recognizes said individual as female. -Naif 11:32, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Fortunately for us all, our society is advanced enough (or at least, becoming so) to realize that we are more than our genes. The question is not whether a transgendered person is biologically this or that, it's a question of identity, and on that subject, the individual decides. -Kasreyn 17:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bias of article?

Ali_The_Asprin As a transgendered person myself, I am sympathetic to the family and friends of Gwen Araujo. However, I believe that this article is amazingly biased, factually innacurate, especially as it states as fact conclusions about the alleged perpetrators which have not been proven in a court of law, minimizes Araujo's extremely risky behavior, and essentially attempts to make Araujo a blameless martyr. My personal opinion is that this is just another example of someone trying to create an idealized, sanatized, and fictionalized version of real life events which serves not to inform, but to advance an agenda through deception.

First off, regardless of the provocation, killing another human being is never justified, except in matters of self defense. With that said, there are several assumptions in this article which are clearly opinionary, but presented as fact. Also the author uses terms which appear to be venacular, and deceptively presents them in such a manner that a cursory reading of this article could reasonably lead one to conclude that these are medically accepted terms, such as those that would be found in a diagnostic reference works such as DSM-IV.

1) The term 'transwoman' is not a know diagnostic description and is not an acceptable substitution for a term like transgendered. This appears to be the author using slang, or some recent politically correct term. This is indicative of, and consistent with, the author's less than lucid attempt to essentially present an intellectually dishonest tome as a biographical snapshot of a person, who in life would likely be considered a deceptive miscreant with serious psychological problems, by many, but is reborn in this prejudiced fiction as a transgendered 'Anne Frank'.

I would like to point out a few facts that are not addressed in this piece:

1) Gwen Araujo was hardly passable in real life, at least according to close friends. The 'Rolling Stone' article (another somewhat slanted work) unintentionally points out the fact that Gwen was not passable. The article mentions Gwen's inability to get jobs due to being clearly a biological male. Further the article cites at least one incident where Eddie was beaten badly, and warned by family members of the danger in his behavior.

2) If Gwen was not passable in situations where other people only encountered her briefly and from a respectful distance, are we to believe that three young men seperately penetrated Araujo anally, believed the 'I'm having my period' story, yet never reached under Gwen's bra?? I can understand why they would avoid the (non-existent) vaginal area. Are we further to believe that in all this time the biologically male hispanic, dark complexioned Araujo never once exhibited 'Five O' Clock Shadow'??? When you factor in the long amounts of time Araujo and the suspects spent together, this becomes unlikely. I am light skinned, can grow only a very sparse beard (I can not really grow a full beard), have no prominent 'Adam's Apple' and am adept with beard cover when in female attire, and I would not be able to be around anyone for more than a few hours without facial hair becoming at least somewhat noticable through the makeup and beard cover. I find it unlikely that Araujo would be able to steal away every few hours to convincingly re-apply beard cover and adjust her makeup. No matter how close the shave and how well applied the makeup,are we to further believe that none of these three "Transphobic" males ever noticed a somewhat abrasive stubbly chin? Are we to believe that these three hetro guys never once kissed the "hot chick Lida" while having anal sex? That none of them never noticed that 'Lida' had no breasts, and no cleavage for that matter?? The story is that they only had suspicions after comparing notes, and one of their real girlfriends mentioning 'Lidas mannish characteristics, characteristics that these three hot blooded young males seemed not to notice despite just about everybody else in creation knowing that Lida was clearly male?

In almost all photos of Araujo it really isn't difficult to tell that the person shown is clearly a biological male (Look at Araujo's hands as well). If we apply Occam's Razor of logic in this case the clear and inescapable conclusion is that the three alleged killers of Gwen Araujo knew Gwen's biological status and engaged in sexual relations with Gwen anyways.

If they knew about Gwen's true gender, and consentually, as well as repeatedly, engaged in sexual relations with her, which I contend is clearly supported by overwhelmingly facts, then the author's contention that these men were 'transphobic' (another term which seems to have no real meaning other than attempting to silence any debate about the author's unsubstansiated, and unreasoned conclusions). While this convenient term "Transphobic" is as fictional, and as baffling, as the author's "Transwoman" term, I am sure there are people who are pathologically hateful, and phobic, towards transgendered persons, and that such a term could reasonably be applied to them, But are we to believe the author that all three of these men, who all had sexual relations with Araujo, while according to the author being totally oblivious to her true biological gender despite repeated encounters (In fairness this is also the contention of the mainstream media, not that that this supports any argument at all!) also all suffered from that new "transphobia" disorder? I'm no mathematician, but I am surmising that if all of these unlikely conditions were to be present, we are dealing with a statistical anomaly unlike any other in history.

Pet peeve - Gwen's "true gender" is female. Sex and gender are two different things. Please, especially if you are transgendered yourself, do not confuse the two.

Let's review this:

1) Most people had no difficulty identifying Gwen Araujo as a biological male, yet none of 'The Three' seemed to notice this after initially encountering Araujo.

2) All of 'The Three' had anal intercourse with Araujo allegedly because they believed her to be having her period. However this does not explain why not one of 'The Three' ever noticed that Araujo had no breasts. If we are to believe that every one of 'The Three' truely believed Araujo was a biological female, that they would not have made a grab for the breasts, even though they were engaging in something as sorid as anal sex, that somehow this pretty girl Lida was able to dissuade, or prevent, all of 'The Three' from a booby grope without raising incredibly high levels of suspicion, is simply beyond belief.

3) The author seems to want to have it both ways in regards to 'The Three' she is quick to depict 'The Three' as mindless reactionary bigots, but also incorporates the psuedo-psychiatric term 'Transphobic' which would seem to be inferring that these men all suffered from some sort of mental illness, or at least personality disorder. The fact that there is no such disorder as 'Transphobic' is one of the first in many intellectually dishonest contentions in the piece. I would certainly like to know where the author earned her medical degree, as well as where she examined 'The Three' and what diagnostic criteria was utilized to reach this conclusion. The fact that everyone one of 'The Three' suffer from this incredibly rare disorder is quite an amazing phenomona.

4) If indeed 'The Three' were really so oblivious to reality that they could not identify 'Lida' as a biological male, then Lida was at the very least very deceptive in allowing them to penetrate her. While I may not go as far as some others in calling this 'rape', but I believe it would be considered some sort of sexual assault under any reasonable interpretation of the term, that however is another issue. I would say this is an academic argument in any case. My conclusion (and this is purely my opinion in the way the writer's entire piece is purely opinion, although presented as factual) based on all of the know facts is that:

1) Every member of 'The Three' was aware of Lida's true gender.

2) All sexual contact with any one of 'The Three' was consensual and deception was not a factor.

3) It is quite revealing that in the 'Rolling Stone' article there is a passage where 'The Three' discuss Lida and while smoking marijuana jokingly mention that Lida might be male. It seems as though this is a backhanded admission that they knew the masculine looking Lida was indeed male without saying it outright.

I have more to say but will have to continue this at another time. I feel there could be a well written and objective piece about Gwen Araujo, but clearly that this fictionalized article is intellectually dishonest from start to finish and the objective is to perpetrate a politically correct myth that promotes an agenda, rather than being informative and promote honest, reasoned debate. My own inclination when dealing with an emotionally divisive subject matter would be to be as objective, and as factual as possible and trust the intellect and fairness of the reader, rather than intentionally ignoring facts, prejudging those involved, assigning motivations, incorporating and possibly inventing terms which may seem legitimate to an uninformed reader. Just remember, you can strech the truth, as well as bend it, but you can't break it, and you can't change it. I would hope that my own gender status would, at the very least, shield me from any accusations of being 'Transphobic' from those who may be 'Truthphobic', but I am not too sure about that! :) — User:24.218.202.185 23:19, 22 August 2005

Uh, sorry, but first, I don't really think that claiming that you are transgender yourself, and yet not even being familiar with perfectly ordinary words like "transwoman" is a particularly convincing claim. Not to mention that I have never met any trans*-person who would change the pronouns back to biological sex; which is, BTW, also not something any cisgender person should do. The rest of your rant is entirely speculative. Revert therefore.

And the next time you add a comment, don't try to fake a username, instead, sign your article with -- ~~~~. -- AlexR 09:10, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I really find it amusing that someone who writes an article that is entirely opinionary, and essentially misrepresentation, but who attempts to present it as fact has the audacity to question my integrity, or my status. I would never allow someone to penetrate me, without knowing my biological gender! you are asking for incredible trouble otherwise, and you put yourself in an amazing amount of danger! To not feel this way is selfish and stupid! You are basically saying that 'Lida' was entitled to decieve these men, and they should have been 'OK' with the fact that they were tricked into sodomizing a teenage boy! (And again, I don't believe that was the case!) You are putting her rights above everybody elses, and people feeling this sense of entitlement will unfortunately result in more incidents like this taking place. I feel strongly that there should be some sort of guidelines about revealing your true status Remember, I am not the one here who attempts to present 'theory' as fact. Your conclusions may or may not be correct, but don't say you know what people were thinking. Further, though nothing

The following are not opinions, they are factual:

1) There is no personality disorder know as 'transphobia". There never has been. Its slang! You have no authority or knowledge of what these men were thinking!

2) At least three of Araujo's close friends stated without hesitation that she "couldn't pass". Granted, that is there opinion, but the photos would seem to back this up.

3) How do you know that 'The Three' were "transphobic"? If we are reasonably defining "Transphobic" as a pathological hatred of transgendered people, I could state that you have no proof that that was the motivation..none at all. All we have is the word of 'The Three', the very group of men that are being convicted in this article which is entirely opinionary, though it may incorporate facts.

4) The entire article's authenticity, as well as neautrality is clearly in question, why are you so adament about supressing that? Shouldn't you be willing to engage in a reasoned debate?

5) During the entire article, never once is Araujo's dangerous behavior explored. If 'The Three' were not aware of her biological status, wasn't 'Lida' being deceptive? Not that this could ever justify the monsterous and savage killing these men have admitted to! Aren't these issues, as well as questions legitimate? Don't they deserve honest debate? to be explored? Do you feel that something other than this dishonest version of events, heavy with conjecture, could compromize Gwen's memory. Is it possible Gwen as a human being may have made some bad judgement calls? Is it wrong to raise these questions? I think not! Agenda driven propoganda is always revealed to be just that. I am certainly not motivated by "transphobia" Can you discuss this without defensiveness and hypervigilance?

"Dangerous behavior". Christ. Hasn't the world had enough of blaming the victim? Here's a clue, and I'll make it far more plain than you make your insinuation: there is no justification for attacking and murdering someone, certainly not that they "tricked" you. Has it never occurred to you that, since you seem to be saying yourself that they knew she was biologically male, that - gasp - maybe they were closeted homosexuals, and reacted violently out of fear of discovery? Wouldn't a transgendered girl - and yes, if you are seventeen you are a girl, not a woman, at least in this country - wouldn't a transgendered M->F girl provide a closeted homosexual male with the perfect way to have a sexual relationship without being discovered?

Your words echo the same filth that gets trotted out whenever a woman accuses a rapist: "hey, she had on a short skirt - she was askin' for it!" Wrong. No one asks to be beaten and murdered. Gwen probably wanted love and attention, like any other teen. All teens go through identity crises where they look for some sort of approval and new identity. Few of them look for a new identity as radically different from the old one as she did. Yes, she attempted deception (though I'm not sure why it matters since you yourself continuously point out that her deception failed). That doesn't make her "dangerous behavior" a way to wink and say, "well, she got what she deserved".

The issue does deserve honest debate, and I've tried to answer you in that spirit. I agree that "transphobia" is at best jargon used to describe a very specific kind of homophobia, at worst it is a complete fabrication. The "article" on it here at wikipedia appears to be entirely original research, and I have notified my intention to change that on its talk page. I also don't think it's appropriate for Wikipedia to attempt to read the attackers' minds. If a trained psychologist interviewed them and then published a report on their state of mind, then we could report on that. Otherwise we should stick to the known facts and chronology of what they did, because we can't ever truly know why they did it. It doesn't matter if they were gay or if they hated gays (and by association, transgenders), the point is that it should not be presented by Wikipedia as a mitigation of their crime. We can only report on attempts for mitigatory claims made in court, and whether they were accepted by the jury. Remember, no original research. -Kasreyn 17:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

6) What are your qualifications to diagnose these men? Are you an M.D.? You engage in this judgemental piece of propoganda, and then respond to my initial post, by not anwering any questions, nor responding to any points made, just inferring I was lying about myself as I have never heard of some of these (fake) terms like "transphobia" Does it mean irrational fear of a Trans-Am? Trans Continental Airlines? transgenderphobia would probably fit a bit better!

I presented what I said as opinion, you do not! I hope you can respond without anger, or delete my comments and clarify these questions. I do not believe Gwen was a saint, but a child who needed a better support system than she had. I am hoping we can look at what happened, and learn from it. Presenting Gwen as a wide eyed innocent, and these men as just evil 'transphobic' bigots is simply foolish! Whatever happened, it involved some very tragic events with people who had some serious problems. We are simply engaging in dangerous self deception to believe otherwise!

If you have any integrity, you should note that these are your opinions, and not proven fact! I am not making any revisions to your page from this point on! I would hope you would be willing to engage in a reasonable dialouge.

P.S. I was not trying to "use a fake name", I assumed looking at the code that I could just use one. You being so self righteous and judgemental automatically asumed the worse, and I guess if 'Gwen' didn't know of the term 'transwoman' then he is back to being plain old 'Eddie' according to you! I had never heard the term before reading your "work" and I don't attend 'wigstock' or gay drag queen bingo nights. Some of us deal with our gender identity in a non radicalized, non cartoonish way! — User:24.218.202.185 22:47, 23 August 2005

The only claim you make that deserves an air of credence is that of the non-existence of the pathological condition known as transphobia. While your claim that such a disorder does not exist in accepted reference texts such as the DSM-IV is correct, it is clearly a term that individuals who are familiar with Gwen's case are (or ought to be) aware of. This purported condition was used in the defense of the three men who were tried in the murder of the 17 year old transgendered Araujo. A claim was also made that they were somehow less responsible for their actions because they were in a state of "trans-panic".

You also seem to be stronly enforcing an opinion that anal intercourse was involved in the actions surrounding this murder. The only claim made is that of "sexual relations". This term, when considered along with the statement that these men believed Gwen to be menstruating, leads more likely to the conclusion that Gwen was engaging in felatio, not anal intercourse. This would also explain why the men never touched her non existent breasts.

The focus of the rest of your statements is based on opinion, such as Gwen's ability to "pass". While I agree that Gwen's actions were perhaps dangerous and poorly planned, you have far from succeeded in proving that this article is factually inaccurate.

And nobody has PROVED the accuracy of the article. The part about Gwen not being able to pass was culled from many people that knew Gwen well and stated that Gwen could not pass. In the Rolling Stone article, it was mentioned that Gwen could not get a job because of her visible transgendered status, in other words, that she was clearly a biological male. Most Photos of Gwen look to be a biological male made up as a female. You can insist over and over that this is not the case, but it clearly is. Gwen was also attacked weeks before by people who clearly recognized her tyransgendered status. Yet we are supposed to believe that almost everyone Gwen came into contact with knew she was transgendered until she met up with these three men and their group of friends?? Somehow they were magically oblivious to what most others can clearly see?

[QUOTE] That doesn't make her "dangerous behavior" a way to wink and say, "well, she got what she deserved". [/QUOTE]

I NEVER implied that Gwen deseved to be murdered, and that is a sick contention of your part! Gwen clearly engaged in behavior that put her at great risk of someone raping, killing or beating her. When the Transgendered do not have a support system in place, and by that I mean qualified professionals as well as understanding friends and family, they are at great risk. Gwen's family, as well as friends, were no doubt sympathetic and loving, but Gwen had no other support or therapy. Gwen should have been in a support group at the very least, and perhaps been transitioning after therapy before attempting to passing in public, which is very dangerous in most places no matter how passable the person is or believes themselves to be. Yes, these guys are scum, and thats even more reason to take any motivation they claim with a grain of salt. But the bottom line is: Gwen should have been more cautious.

And lets honsetly answer the question once and for all: Was Gwen wrong in not revealing her gender status before having anal sex with some of these men (And it has been widely reported that it was anal not oral sex!). I find it impossible to believe that if it was indeed oral sex that not one of these purported hetrosexual males made a boob grab! This whole situation does not pass the smell test! 69.182.147.99 10:06, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Transwoman" versus "Transsexual" in article introduction

I'm concerned about the use of the term "Transwoman" in the article's introductory sentences. The original term used was "transsexual". I haven't heard the term "transwoman"; it seems to be a jargon term. The term "transsexual" is more common, and I think would be more appropriate for the introduction. If "transwoman" is in general usage, it might be appropriate later in the article, or presented along with "transsexual" in the introduction (i.e., "she was a male-to-female transsexual, or transwoman"). Does that seem appropriate?

If people have any doubts, we have a perfectly good article on transwoman that is linked from there. Ambi 07:33, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If you don't like transwoman, we can write [[transwoman|transsexual woman]], or even [[transsexual]] [[transwoman|woman]], or we can use the word transsexual as an adjective (but not as a noun, as there are problems with the usage in this form). Dysprosia 07:38, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Transwoman's a fairly widely used term, and is less cumbersome/confusing and potentially, less demeaning than "male-to-female transsexual woman" - it makes the fact that one is transsexual clearly known, it clearly expresses that individuals gender identification, and it can be worked cleanly into text in the same places where "man" or "woman" can fit. I'd also suggest that the term really only need to be used near the start of an article, unless a person's transexuality is a major focus of that article. Triona 11:36, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think the term 'transgenderED' is loaded in that it assumes that it is a choice of some sort created by having something done to you...It suggests that you choose to be and become transgendered as opposed to being a transgender person. Its like saying 'I've become heterosexualised' or 'He homosexualised himself'. The preferred word should be transgender without the 'ed.' Bishop Shelby Spong I think was one of the first people to make that sort of distinction.

This is an absurdly politically correct sentence that is at odds with the facts: "Once it was discovered that Gwen Araujo was biologically male, she was struck on the head "

You cannot be "biologically male" and be "she." Words mean something, and "she" does not mean "biologically male"! User:66.214.88.100

That is your opinion, others have another - whether your gender is between your legs or between your ears is actually not really debated - it is between the ears. You might wish to inform yourself about the matter before making any more defamatory statements, actually. Or find another webpage to rant. -- AlexR 9 July 2005 09:07 (UTC)

You are correct in that words mean something... you are incorrect in assuming that the word "she" only defines a biological female. A transsexual woman lives is a woman and wishes to be viewed as a woman. It is absurd to call somebody who lives as a female and wishes to be viewed as female a "he." Your use of "politically correct" is annoying. Any show of common courtesy could be called politically correct... and it is only within common courtesy to refer to a transwoman the same way as a biological woman.

No it is the truth, she is correct. The statement absurdly contradicts itself within one sentence. It's beyond opinion.

The sentence does not contradict itself, as it is made clear earlier in the article that Gwen identifies as female. "Biologically male" does not automatically mean "identified male," and on Wikipedia personal identification comes before biology.

Can we please quit this rubbish about the definitions of biological sex. A biological male doesn't have the secondary sexual characteristics of a woman (which includes evebn such things as thinner skin, etc). A biological woman doesn't have XY sex chromosones. Gwen was murdered when they fount out that she was a transexual woman, or my preferred (and widely used) term, a transwoman. Same thing, but more sensitive, and easier to understand. Please, lets quit the arguing. Crimsone 21:38, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Girl"?

AlexR, I don't know why you insist that Gwen is not a "child" nor a "girl". Legally, she was definitely not a "woman" -- she was not yet 18 at her death. That makes her a girl. Certainly, except for the fact that she was biologically a male, the prosecutor would have kept calling her a girl, a girl, a girl to the jury. Certainly I've had clients who are charged with consensual sex with 17-year-olds and the alleged victims are repeatedly referred to as girls in court. Please come up with a convincing argument on why Gwen was not a "girl". --Nlu 12:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, because "girl" has certain implications, you know. One is that she was far from grown-up, and that is something most 17-year-olds emphatically deny. Maybe a prosecutor would use that word, but then, a prosecutor does have to convince a jury. We do not, and I find it pretty insulting to call a 17-year-old, who also does not come across as particularly "childish", a girl. Particularly if this person also has sex on her own initiative. This is an article in an encyclopdia, not a legal text.

Not to mention that there is another problem with replacing "transwoman" with "transgender girl": Once you try to decided whether Gwen was "transsexual" or "transgender", you are bound to invite another discussion (and particularly if you do so in the introductory paragraph). You might notice that this is not definitely stated anywhere in the article, and given the mining field this "war of definitions" sometimes can be, that is most decidedly not the worst way of keeping it. -- AlexR 16:05, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

"Girl" is dimunitive and is often read as "not even close to being an adult woman" so I don't think it's unreasonable to want to avoid that term; many females in their late teens and twenties accept the phrase "young woman", in my experience. So rather than deciding between "girl" and "woman", how do you feel about "young woman", sufficiently qualified, like "transgender(ed) young woman"? Perhaps "…young transwoman — a transgendered woman, biologically male but projecting as female" would be a reasonable compromise? It would allow the casual reader to avoid having to research "transwoman", which is not in most people's vocabulary and is as ambiguous as any other term. — mjb 03:25, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I must say I am still not sufficiently happy about it. That many teenage girls would not like to be called girls (just as teenage boys don't like to be called boys often) doesn't make them non-girls. And again, I think the major tragedy in this is that Gwen's life is cut so short -- and, while I am not blaming her for her own death (like, apparently, Magidson's attorney more or less did), she made some rather major mistakes in deciding whom to associate with and whom to get intimate with, mistakes that would hopefully not have been repeated had she been older and more mature and more understanding that these were not men that she should have been involved with. However, there doesn't seem to be a good number of people agreeing with me. But I think AlexR misses the point, in particular; the way that Gwen was murdered (and I think I can call it murder now) is tragic and brutal, and, I'm sorry, but her behavior was not adult behavior. (I know many adults behave this way, but she was clearly acting as a teenager trying to win acceptance by providing sexual favors -- like many other teenage girls -- not realizing that that doesn't bring you acceptance, but only humiliation.) Calling her a (tran)woman simply ignores that part of the tragedy. --Nlu 13:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute template

I have added Template:TotallyDisputed to the article in order to warn the reader that there are allegations of bias and factual inaccuracy that are being discussed on the Talk page. I see by the article's edit history that there's a bit of a battle going on, and the discussion here does not seem to have produced much consensus yet.

One thing that I noticed in the article was that the 'Death' section does not even mention when it is believed that she died. It makes it sound like she was buried alive… — mjb 03:25, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

A problem is that there is no real definitive or convincing account on how Gwen died -- an issue that plagued the prosecution's case during the first trial. I don't think that will ever been known, conclusively. Even the second trial didn't really resolve the matter legally -- by convicting both Magidson and Merél, the jury clearly believed that both of them were involved with her death, but by not convicting or acquitting Cazares, the jury also signified that it was not convinced that either the prosecution timeline (as given by Nabors) or Cazares's account was accurate -- not to mention that we don't have to agree with the jury's determination, either. Indeed, I don't think that one can even rule out the possibility that Gwen was buried alive, however unlikely that was. Indeed, the convictions of both Magidson and Merél implicitly means that the jury discredited both of their versions as well -- and the prosecution relied on Merél's testimony in arguing Magidson's guilt, which, in my mind, muddies the picture more. We will never know who did what in Gwen's death conclusively, I'm sure. --Nlu 13:09, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I see the template was quickly removed by AlexR, yet the allegations of bias remain unanswered. As near as I can tell, the long-winded anonymous complaint in the 'bias of article' section above seems to boil down to one main point of contention which you have not addressed: the characterization of the Gwen's assailants as 'transphobic', which is guessing at their motives — it's certainly plausible, to me, but I can see the point that it may not be documented diagnosis/fact, and the article should not present it as such, especially when it seems to advance the agenda of those who are sympathetic with the victim and would like to portray her in the most positive light possible.

(The complainant feels the case for labelling them transphobic is further undermined by various downplayed or unmentioned reports that would instill a reasonable doubt that the assailants were completely unaware of Gwen's biological masculinity at the time of their sexual encounters, but as you pointed out, the failure to cite sources aside from a passing reference to Rolling Stone renders the bulk of that argument speculative.)

At the very least, you should qualify the opening statement of the article to clarify who is making the claim that the attackers were transphobic, rather than reporting it as a general fact that they were/are transphobic. — mjb 09:33, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, yes, I did, and that is because all you gave for a reason were "disputes on the talk page" which about every 2nd article has. Also, even if there is a dispute, a "totallydisputed" tag only goes into articles with current edit wars, usually, and not just any article where just any person felt there was something "unresolved". Not to mention that all sex/gender related articles get hit with a variety of dispute template and nutcase allegations regularly, which does influence ones willigness to remove such templates.

As for the alleged unresolved dispute, that is a claim , lacking, as far as I am aware, any merrits. An IP put up -- weeks ago -- a long rant that consists of very litte more than conjecture and "must have been, because I think so". The matter isn't discussed very deeply because said IP vanishes in a puff of fould smelling words after being contradicted and called to back up their allegations. (What a surprise ... a real first!) And now, weeks later, you walk in here, have nothing to back up these claims either, and slap a "totallydisputed" tag into the article? Well, you can expect it to be removed again, unless you have a few arguments to back it up. Hint: Allegedly quoting a paper article and then conjuring up a case on half a sentence of that article is not exactly going to win your case. -- AlexR 08:29, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

First off, people come and go, and stumble across articles, all the time. Sometimes it takes months for someone to run across and article and find something questionable about it and to do something about it. Just because the article or talk page was stable in the meantime does not mean it has no problems, and how much of a newcomer I am to this page is irrelevant to issue at hand. FWIW, I came here because I saw a recent report about the verdict on a news site, and I wanted to get some of the backstory on the case. I looked at the article, had to go look up transwoman, then noticed the missing death info. Then I looked at the discussion page, and saw the anonymous rant and your hasty dismissal of it. I looked at the article again and noticed that it did indeed still label the attackers as transphobic, without any qualification of that statement to indicate who came to that conclusion (a court of law didn't, and a doctor didn't).

The 'totallydisputed' template (an unfortunate name for a template whose text is actually quite benign) very accurately characterizes this article as having questionable accuracy and neutrality. By removing it, you are asserting that everything stated in it is fact and does not reflect bias. Yet, as was pointed out, it presents contentious assertions as fact.

You are right in that most of that anonymous rant is speculative and can be ignored, but the point remains that the article is overly sympathetic to the victim, and it does, at the outset, label Gwen's attackers as transphobic, which has not been sufficiently demonstrated, at least not by anything in the article, as being true. Plausible, yes. Certain, no. The average newspaper would never be allowed to print such unqualified statements. Exactly how is there 'no merit' to these points? — mjb 22:58, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bias of article, continued

mjb states "You are right in that most of that anonymous rant is speculative and can be ignore" Really? Just what is speculative mjb? Why don't you provide specifics! The facts I posted are just that. ' 1) Gwen's friends stated repeatedly that "Eddie couldn't pass for female!" No speculation there!

2) There is no mental illness, nor is there a condition recognized as "Transphobia", hmmm! Thats mot speculation either!

3) The only account of the killing is from the alleged killers. That is speculative?? I'd thats a fact!

4) AlexR never addresses Araujo's risky behavior, at least at any great length. Thats pretty factual as well i'd say!

The argument I set forth about what possibly happened was surmise and speculation, and I made that very clear! But mjb use a little common sense here! Most of Araujo's friends said 'she' could not pass as female, in none of the photographs I've seen does Araujo look convincingly female, at least in my opinion. Yet we are to believe that all of these young men

I am in no way saying that Gwen's killers definitely didn't know she was a transwoman, but your photo example is insufficient. You knew she was biologically male before viewing the picture.

1) Has anal sex with Araujo, but hade no clue about Araujo's biological gender.

2) They were all convinced Araujo was indeed a biological female, despite what Araujo's family and friends have stated??

3) All three suffered from something called 'Transphobia' and all had 'Gay Panic' all at once! What are the mathematical odds of this statistical anomaly??

We aren't talking about a whole city here, only three people. Transphobia and homophobia often go hand in hand. It's like saying that three friends who all hate black people and hispanic people at the same time would be a strange occurence. If it -were- the case, it wouldn't by any means be a "statistical anomaly."

Speculation would be promoting the idea that this happened with nothing to back it up. This was a hypothesis! AlexR's silly contention that I no longer showed up here, due to a Alex's excellent rebuttals is very absurd. It was my frustration at his absolute ignorance, and bizzare defense of his fiction which kept me away! :)

AlexR obviously has no interest whatsoever in factual accuracy, but seems hell bent on maintaining an overly simplistic, fictionalized account of the events which depicts Araujo as a beautiful, flawless, innocent creature who met a horrific demise at the hands of evil straight "transphobic" alpha males who existed solely to obliterate this fragile flower.

People like 'AlexR', with their own extreme agendas, as well as total indifference to fairness and objectivity, are the very reason that wikipedia has now had so many credibility issues. The pettiness, and hypervigelance this person exhibits is jarring. 'AlexR' treats this page as though it is his (?) personal website, and that his fictionalized ideal account of events is definitive. One should keep in mind, the only accounts we have of the killing, is from the alleged killers, which should be taken with a great degree of skepticism.

'AlexR' will not actually address valid points of contention, and based on his writings, I surmise he has neither the honesty, emotional fortitude, nor intellectual capacity required to engage in an honest informed dialouge. Any disagreement is met with hissy generaliztion like "That's your opinion", and keeps actual debate to zero. Any attempt on anyone's part to revise the Araujo entry is met with a swift and hysterical deletion by 'AlexR' The self appointed authority on anything Araujo!

I would hope fair minded posters will bring this matter to the attention of wikipedia. People like 'AlexR' with simple minded fantasies ready to substitute for fact are the very reason wikipedia is having major problems with credibility! Let's deal with this situation and stop this insanity!

Yes, you did make it clear that your conclusions were speculative when you said "My conclusion (and this is purely my opinion in the way the writer's entire piece is purely opinion, although presented as factual) based on all of the know[n] facts is that…" so it should not come as a shock to you that AlexR and I both characterized your commentary as being mostly speculative.

In my opinion, you generally do raise good questions about the case and the way it is being described by this article. It is true that there are certain pieces of information that were underreported, and certain suspicious circumstances that, as far as we know, were not topics of consideration during the trials. But the bulk of your rant is imploring the reader to retry the case or harbor certain doubts based on your selected bits of circumstantial evidence. If the GLBT community or convicts' legal representatives are demanding further consideration of these issues, then it can be easily reported on in the article; but if it's just you asking "how can conclusion X be reasonable, given evidence A B and C?", the best you can probably do is research whether the evidence in question was considered in the trial and then report on that aspect accordingly (and carefully).

Things that I don't think are points of contention are that Araujo was attempting to pass as female, Araujo was attacked and subsequently died, certain conclusions about the case were reached by a jury, and certain groups take a heightened interest in the case due to the victim's transgendered status (passable or not). To be constructive, I've gone ahead and rewritten the intro/summary paragraph in order to declare these facts as neutrally as I could. — mjb 02:26, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

---

Whoa, people! Look at the pretty flowers. Let them calm you. --Kizor 18:43, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

I'm translating the article into Hebrew but I'm not sure about the correct pronunciation of "Araujo". Can anybody help? tnx! Odedee 05:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

If the pronunciation is supposed to match pronunciation of Spanish - ie if I'm right in assuming that Araujo is an Hispanic name - then it would be "ah-ROW-ho". I don't know the universal pronunciation code symbols, or whatever they call it (I find it unreadable anyway). Note that the last syllable is a very vocal consonant. A "j" in Spanish is pronounced as if you are making a "k" sound but then rasp air through the area rather than closing the "k". Hard to describe! Hope this helped. -Kasreyn 17:14, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this did help. This matches my understanding. As for the j, I will use the Hebrew letter corresponding to the first H in "Hutzpah". That's the closest, I guess. Odedee 23:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Old name

I think we should remove her old name. Mentioning a trans person's ex-name is generally considered rude and inappropriate information in trans culture and trans-friendly spaces. Who else agrees with me?--Sonjaaa 21:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Not at all. In this case, it's factually accurate (and relevant -- for one thing, without her original name, all the references to "Eddie" suddenly make no sense). This is an encyclopedia, not a blog. --Nlu (talk) 04:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. It may be transgender etiquette but wikipedia manual of style is more appropriate. This isn't a transgender publication, and though we will of course be as respectful as we can, it's unencyclopedic not to include her original name, for informational purposes. -Kasreyn 07:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Kasreyn! Some people here seem to think this is the radical politicized, opinionary transgendered are all innocent victims, and anyone else is "Transphobic (?!)" forum. This is supposed to be an unbiased online encyclopedia, not a radical, hysterical online diatribe!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.34.179.235 (talk • contribs) 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Funny, this debate ... whenever people are asked to respect transpeople, some start whining (quite often anonymously) that it would be "unencyclopedic" to do so, or that respect towards transpeople is something that happens only in "transgender publications" or blogs, or that the demand is "radical", "hysterical" and so on. I dunno, but methinks those people just don't have any manners, and worse, they are so bloody eager to show it. Can't you for a change try arguments instead? Lemme show you how that works:

It is true that within trans culture it is rude to call a person by their old name, in fact, it is always rude to do so. However, we are not calling Gwen "Eddie" in this article, but we merely mention that her birth name was "Eddie". That itself I consider no more rude than mentioning that Cary Grant's birth name was Archibald Alexander Leech. Now, if a transperson - or anybody who ever changed their name - does take great pains to hide it (which not everybody does), and especially if the name is not general knowledge, I would consider mentioning the name here on par with outing some gay or lesbian person who is in the closet, something we don't do in the Wikipedia, either. This is not the case here - about every article about her mentiones her birth name, and I see no reason not to mention it (once, however, is perfectly enough). -- AlexR 10:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

It's only unencyclopedic if it's unsourced. Which, currently, the article on transphobia *still* is. I'm certainly not calling anyone hysterical; just because 24.34.179.235 agrees with me doesn't mean I totally agree with him or her! Everyone deserves equal respect on Wikipedia regardless of their lifestyle choice. My only problem is when activists push political buzz-words and propaganda (both positive and negative propaganda) words on Wikipedia as if they were real. I'm not against the efforts by transgender activists to sway public opinion, but it mustn't be done here. Which means that terminology like "transphobia" must be backed up with sources to avoid the appearance of partiality. Cheers, Kasreyn 20:18, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Errr ... and why are you then using words like "lifestyle choice" (which transgender is not - most trans-people would rather not be trans), or "activists" pushing "political buzz-words" and "propaganda" "as if it were real". Sorry, but that is your activism pushing right-wing buzz-words as if they were real. I also never said that you agree with the IP on everything, so what exactly are you talking about regarding this article? And here we are not discussing Transphobia, so if you have any problems with that article, why buillshit around here accusing people of abusing Wikipedia for propaganda? Especially since you are doing the same thing, only you don't have anything to back up your claim of "lifestyle choice". Except transphobic publications, of course. -- AlexR 20:51, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Sheesh. I wasn't aware "lifestyle choice" was such an odious term to trans people. I was under the impression that it was courteous. What do they prefer? "Accident of birth"? "Roll of the dice"? Please forgive me for not being up-to-date in my terminology. Kasreyn 18:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Then perhaps you should actually think before commenting. Rebecca 08:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Just because I made a mistake (which I've already admitted to) is no reason to be insulting to me. Kasreyn 09:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Movie

The Lifetime Movie Network has made a movie about her. Someone would be so kind to do a little research on it and add it to this article.

More info? Rebecca 05:00, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Lifetimetv.com: Movies - A Girl Like Me: The Gwen Araujo Story --David Edgar 16:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I watched the movie. It was highly fictionalized. Sylvia Guerrero never testified at the trial. Most of the witnesses for the trial were completely made up. The film also didn't portray Gwen's sexual relations with the defendants. Gwen never had a boyfriend who came to family functions. The film's purpose seems to have been to promote a message against hate (which is good), but it was not an accurate portrayal of what really happened. Agrippina Minor

[edit] Clan, Klan, or Church?

In the bit immediately following the mention of Fred Phelps, a "clan" is referred to as picketing. Is this a second reference to Phelps's followers, or to the Ku Klux Klan, or to a third organization altogether? If it's referring to Phelps's followers, it would be best to say "the Westboro Baptist Church" rather than "the clan". If it's the KKK being discussed, clan should probably be spelled with a K. If it's a third organization, then what organization is it? This sentence is confusing. Kasreyn 05:59, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

It's bound to be the WBC, in which case I agree with your suggestion. Rebecca 06:19, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

"Family" would probably be better, since it's generally Phelps' relatives. "Clan" in that context is in the sense of an extended family. But, due to the confusion with the Klan, family would be preferable Nik42 08:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've already changed it to simply the "Westboro Baptist Church", which seems accurate enough. Thanks, though.  :) Kasreyn 08:56, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] gender

since Gwen Araujo was biologically male, shouldnt it refer to "him" and not "her"?

Your title answers your own question (without realizing it I assume). Gwen Araujo's gender was female, her sex was male. Gender is a cultural construct, whereas sex is biologically determined. Gwen identified socially as a female. So if you are wondering about "gender", than no, it shouldn't say "he". And as far as I'm concerned, it should refer to Gwen's gender. The Ungovernable Force 04:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

This has already been discussed. It is more appropriate to refer to Gwen as "her" because that was her gender identity and what she used. Gender identity takes preference over biological sex.

Self identification: When naming or writing an article about specific people or specific groups always use the terminology which those individuals or organizations themselves use. Transsexual people, for example, should be referred to using the personal pronouns (male, female, or another) that they themselves prefer. - Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity)

So it is "her" and not "him." Falsetto 02:16, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

However, to avoid any appearance of POV, I suggest avoiding gendered pronouns unless absolutely required. --Nlu (talk) 06:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, as long as it doesn't make any of the writing awkward. Ungovernable Force^{Got something to say?} 06:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Pronouns are inherently gendered. The guideline is there for a reason, and I will revert any attempts at introducing weasel words into this article. Rebecca 09:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

How are the use of, for example, "Araujo" to replace gendered pronouns "weasel words"? Please read that guideline before you throw these accusations around. --Nlu (talk) 16:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

It already uses "Araujo" in a number of places, as with any other article. There is no excuse for trying to weasel around the long-standing guideline. Rebecca 02:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

If you constantly use "Araujo" instead of "she" it sounds awkward. That's why pronouns exist. Like I said, don't butcher the language in the name of npov when our other guidelines say to use "she." Ungovernable Force^{Got something to say?} 02:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)