Talk:Guqin

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Guqin is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do.

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Guqin appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 20, 2006.

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This article has been rated as FA-Class on the quality scale. (add comments)

To-do list for Guqin:
Create stubs for most of the main qin societies. Begin preliminary article for guqin notation. ~~Create stubs for some major qin players.~~ ~~Expand entry for Ritual use of the qin section.~~ ~~Re-do gallery of finger techniques. Upload photos of correct posture and replace some or all existing ones.~~ ~~Expand entry for Rhythm in qin music section.~~ ~~Add entry for Inscriptions section.~~ ~~Add staff notation of standard scale and range, etc.~~
edit - history - watch - purge

[edit] Acknowledgements

The main contributor of this article (Charlie Huang) would like to thank the following people for their help in this article:

Badagnani for copy-editing
Wang Fei for help and permission to use information/images of the this and its sister articles, and corrections
John Thompson for suggestions of improvement and copy-editing
Cheng Yu for her support
Julian Joseph for corrections of mistakes and errors
Christopher Evans for suggestions
Marnix Wells for suggesting a correction of POV
Jim Binkley for his valuable information on qin construction
Stephen Dydo for suggesting additions
The qin community as a whole for their support

[edit] Articles on the qin

The progress of the main qin articles:

[edit] Others

The progress of minor qin articles:

[edit] Discussion

1 Acknowledgements
2 Articles on the qin
- 2.1 Others
3 Discussion

Please add new points of discussion and questions about the article at the bottom of the page.

[edit] Article

Excellent work on the guqin article, Charlie Huang! You are quite a scholar of this instrument. --Badagnani 11:08, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm a qin player myself (2 and a half years self-taught), with a few sessions with li Xiangting and a week of lessons with Zeng Chengwei (I can finally play Liu Shui!). I came across this by accident and thought I could improve it. God, I must have contributed well over 70% of it by now! Of course, there is still some more to do. And I have a manga to complete by the end of September... *sigh* --CharlieHuang 12:50, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

OK... Doesn't seem to be much left to add except editing mistakes, etc. Would like to add more on duanwen and aesthetics but it seems the size limit has exceeded somewhat after all those Chinese character additions... ho hum. --CharlieHuang 1:30, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

OK, I don't think there is anymore to add. Expect updating things, spelling mistake corrections and future additional stuff that anyone can add. I added the Chinese characters so it looks well researched and planned. --CharlieHuang 12:00, 01 November 2005 (UTC)

Added more additions now, including more pics of duanwen, strings, qinpu, and a new promotional pic of myself to replace the old one. Now, I'm re-arranging stuff and material as well as decorating the article so it looks very good indeed! --CharlieHuang 14:31, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nice article, but...

But for the sake of consistency and grammatical correctness, maybe you should put all the Chinese characters that appear in headers in ( )? e.g. Mentions in Chinese literature (文體記在) --Michiel Sikma 20:46, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

This is a good idea; I had wondered why the characters were necessary for section headings; they're good to have for proper names and the names of various techniques, but possibly not necessary for the headings. But, if this article is to be used by bilingual Chinese/English speakers then the characters could be useful. --Badagnani 19:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and you should make an audio recording sometime, I'd love to hear how this thing actually sounds :) --User:Michiel Sikma 18:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

It sounds great! Just for you, I'm going to add a "Listening" section under External links. --Badagnani 19:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

It does sound nice :) It's also interesting to hear the old compositions. I'm sure John Fahey would have loved it. --Michiel Sikma 20:46, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Box

I'm having difficulty trying to add Japanese names to the box. I managed the basic Chinese names but do not know how to attach the Japanese names section on it. It doesn't show up, or it gets a seperate box which I don't want. Is it possible or it isn't allowed to have more than one language in the boxy thing? --CharlieHuang 12:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Forget it. It's not that important now. --CharlieHuang 18:29, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Techniques

I'm planning to add a table of various techniques used to play qin. It would be illustrated with photos of course of my own playing. I would do about eight entries. But I might turn it into a seperate table in a seperate article, though that might be troublesome coz I might need to add notation and that would create extra work for me to write, scan, collate and upload some 50 odd seperate little pics which I'm not into doing. Probably stick to the first and extend it if I can manage, probably without notation. Of course, I could try to create the notations by crude use of combining several characters and radicals together, but that might not look that good in the end... --CharlieHuang 10:52, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Wow. Just checked it out and something almost crashed my system. I think there are too many pictures to load easily on old computers (like mine). --Badagnani 11:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

LOL! Well, I suppose I am getting slightly carried away, a bit. Such is the passion! Can you feel it? I'll do this little table of images then end of pics for this article.

BTW, my computer is over 9 years old (have very little upgrades) and it still works fine! Though it is slow, but it has no problem viewing pages with as many as 100 different pics! --CharlieHuang 11:46, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Many people have this passion only for pop music and/or sports! :) Your computer must have been "built to last." Mine is fairly slow. --Badagnani 11:51, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, at least I have passion in something constructive and potentially worthy of input. Of course, my family would rather me do some boring stuff like working in the office, or something robotic like accountancy, et al. Those will drive me to jump off a cliff! Music and arts is what keeps me alive. And it is fun and it grows and grows without limits. Plus, you're satisfied at the end of the day rather than having sleepless nights.

I want to get a new PC, coz mines is so old that it can't be upgraded to Bindows XP! And that has got stuff in it which would make my life easier, like being able to write Chinese on the writing pad using the tablet and it types it out on screen, rather than having to plough through lists and the hit and miss direct typing input method. And I'll be able to do things like play some modern games on it, coz I can't on my current PC coz it's not up to the job. --CharlieHuang 15:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

OK finished! No more pics for this article, unless it is necessary. --CharlieHuang 14:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Featured article work

OK, I`ve removed the Chinese headings and reverted the top three items into one paragraph as put forward by the opposition (and anyways, I think it would be better as they were OK together). --CharlieHuang 11:47, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed and moved the big lists. For the smaller ones, I'd leave them for now until I get into the mood of creating separate articles on them, or squash them into paragraphs. The Historical Players should remain a list as it is more logical that way. --CharlieHuang 12:14, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed and merged a lot of stuff. Somethings are iffy for me coz removing a lot tends to make certain places more thinner than I am comfortable with. It would require a lot more time and work for me to try and add more stuff in order to patch much of the holes and thin sections that the deconstruction work has exposed. --CharlieHuang 00:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Don't remove too much! --Badagnani 00:32, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I won't. I don't want to remove anymore coz it will be reduced to sawdust! I've moved rather than remove a lot of stuff, to other articles. Things that I removed and must re-type if I want to retrieve if I need to is the list of Important Qinpu and that's it really. I don't want to compromise to the point of losing the article's informability, which is the purpose of me writing it in the first place. If it turns into an exercise of little snippets of info going bang bang bang at the reader, then there's no point to the article! --CharlieHuang 15:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, I've added a lot of inline citations bringing the total to 14. That has to be enough. Also added further references (and yes, I do own those books that have a full bibliography except for a few, just in case you're wondering) of the books I used in writing this article. --CharlieHuang 18:24, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

What a lot of work! I've abandoned most of the website citations and re-furbished the references, adding more, plus a general treasure hunt in my library of books for page numbers et al. Of course, I could add more, but that might take me a month or two, plus a very long reference and footnote list. I hope that is at least acceptable now. --CharlieHuang 20:22, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] WE HAVE REACHED FEATURED ARTICLE STATUS!!!

Wow! Thanks to everyone who contributed and supported this article! And just in time for the new year as well! Domo artigatou gozaimasu! --CharlieHuang 00:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations!! When will it appear on the front page? Badagnani 00:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Who knows?! Is there some mind-numbing process we have to further undertake? --CharlieHuang 10:31, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hereafter

Right. After all that, the next thing I'm gonna do is maybe add a few bits on qin forms/shapes since that is something that isn't covered in the article. Then, I'm going to migrate to the other sister articles, like the qinpu one, to work on those and (try to) finish them to as good a standard as I possibly can. --CharlieHuang 21:27, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Next addition will be a table of common tuning patterns, which I put up when I get the time. I'll try to keep it short to avoid creating another article. I'll only create a separate article if I decide to do a complete table of tunings. --CharlieHuang 23:26, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Converted the table of tunings and qin names into template form to reduce article size. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 20:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TROLL ALERT!!!

Some idiot has destroyed my article! Since it has been on recently, I'd wait for a day before he gets lost before reverting. --CharlieHuang 14:16, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymological note on the word 'string'

So what's the current and/or past Hanzi for guqin/musical instrument strings? Etymologically "correct" or not. LDHan 14:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

You can use either really, both describe exactly the same thing, a string that is strung on a musical instrument. Mainland China tends to use the one with the bow radical. However, old books (i.e. people of ancient times) almost always use the silk radical one. --CharlieHuang 20:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guqin Main Page nomination preparation

The guqin 「古琴」 (or simply qin) is the modern name for a plucked fretless seven-stringed Chinese musical instrument of the zither family. It has been played since ancient times, and has traditionally been favored by scholars and the literati as an instrument of great subtlety and refinement. The qin has a recorded history of at least 3,000 years. Early qins exist from around 2,500 years. The body of the qin is constructed out of two different woods (paulownia and catalpa) that are hollowed out and joint together before lacquer is applied to the surface.

The qin has a special notation system, which is at least 1,500 years old. There are over 3,500 different melodies, preserved in around 130 tablature collections, called qinpu. The method of playing the qin involves plucking the strings with the right hand, while the left hand either presses and slides up and down the strings to alter the pitch, or lightly touching a string at a prescribed point causing a harmonic to sound. There are less than 3,000 qin players in the world, only a few have totally mastered it.

Because of its focus on the intellect, the qin has declined in the past century as a result of political disturbances from views that it is a by-product of feudalism. However, the qin has been on a revival since the last decade and has gained a lot of interest, especially among Westerners who find its gentle sounds, and its philosophy of peace and being at one with nature very appealing in the stressful and artificial constraints of the modern world. (more...)

Please expand and edit. --CharlieHuang 12:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

What does "nom prep" mean? Badagnani 18:41, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Nomination preparation. We'll fix it up to an good standard then stick it on the 'Today's Featured Article' nomination page and hopefully the mod will select it for a future main page feature. --CharlieHuang 13:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've written the introduction, but it is too long. I will have to cut it by at least a third without losing the gist. Minor or unimportant things must go. --CharlieHuang 16:03, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I've submitted it for the Main Page. We can now only wait. You can view it here: Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article. --CharlieHuang 16:29, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Woo-hoo! Sucess! The article will appear on the main page on the 20th April 2006!!! Do look out for it! --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 18:42, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Punctuation

OK, to keep track of the Chinese punctuation in the article, I'm going to create a list as reference for myself:

「」: Personal/subject matter names, quotes, etc
『』: Technical names and terms
【】: Books
〖〗: Product names/terms
《》: Names of melodies, literature, titles, etc
〈〉: Name or term specific to the subject in question (e.g. name of techniques, tunings, etc)
〔〕: Special term of a particular subject
( ) : Translations into English or Chinese equivalent

--CharlieHuang on work computer. --212.115.41.38 10:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User instrument templates for the guqin

I've created the whole set of User instruments templates for the qin to add to their userpage Babel (or wherever) here: Category:Wikipedian guqin players. Doubtful they'll be any other qin players but me, but t'will be nice to know! --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 17:35, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I've created a template to mark articles I'm informally administering, since I'm probably the only one in Wikipedia with the knowledge and authority to do so, for Guqin related articles. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 12:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gallery of finger techniques

〈挑〉 Tiao	〈勾〉 Gou	〈劈〉 Pi	〈撥〉 Bo
〈滚〉 Gun	〈上〉 Shang	〈掐起 / 搯起〉 Qiaqi	〈掩 / 罨〉 Yan

Note: The examples above are given as a demonstration of how finger techniques may look, and do not reflect a 'perfected' standard of play and should not be considered as authorative.

I've had to remove it and stick it here for the time being, coz one of my peers say that some of the techniques in the pictures are 'wrong' (i.e. not 'perfect' to a standard required for this article). My peer in question thinks that it might mislead the reader into thinking these techniques shown in the photos are 'correct'. I'm slightly puzzled by his/her claim because I would assume that the reader of the article will know nothing about qin and most likely not a player or learner; and the gallery was meant to be a sampling or a quick demo of what things may look (you can't tell from reading the descriptions), that is meant to be demonstrative overview rather than authorative. Besides, this article teaches about the qin and not how to play it. Anyways, until I find better examples (that are free of copyright) then this table will go here in this talk page. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 10:39, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, I have 'premission' to use photos from Li Xiangting's book to illustrate it. Although I prefer colour ones, it might have to do. Another thing is that I might have to use some scans from old qinpu illustrating some techniques to make it varied. I'm also planning another article that lists various fingerings with their notation and descriptions. That I'll save for when I have a window of free time. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 12:14, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, the new pics I uploaded are pending on the fair use rationale bit. If they get deleted then the gallery will have to be kept here further until I can get access to my camera to produce new photos of the techniques. I'm currently using ones for a book (with permission from the author), but it seems to unnecessary complicate things. Other than that, use some pics from old tablatures, but some of them are nor that clear... Might do that if they decide to delete the new images. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 12:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. Should be premanant now. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 15:51, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Simple English version of article?

I was thinking, should we create the article in the Simple English version of Wikipedia? We will cut a lot of things and details out, and most of the Chinese characters and focus on the main aspects. Will be a nice project on a rainy day. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 17:57, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Done. I've transfered the whole article there and cut off huge chunks. It now needs to be thoroughly copyedited to a simple and concise format, removing broken links and templates and images that aren't working as well as general slimming down. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 11:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is it only me?

There seems to be a problem. Why do I see that parts of the first two paragraphs bolded for no reason? And it is almost always after the unicode templates... Is that the error or do I have to abandon them for more basic measures? Also, can't seem to view parts of the IPA; doesn't seem to be my computer as it did display them not long ago... --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 16:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted it back to longhand form. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 17:28, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Media files

I've uploaded three of my own recordings onto the commons and added them to the article. Thanks to my new computer, the sound quality is very good, unlike my old recordings I did on my old computer, which sounded very empty, artifical, metallic and twangy. I might add more later if I have the time or be in the mood. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 15:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

More added, with one improvisation. I don't think I will record anymore at this point in time. When I get a better qin in the future and improve, I will re-record all the scores (expect the impro of course) and replace the existing ones. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 20:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Add some sound clips to illustrate the different sounds of the qin, as well as to illustarte the points in the aesthetics section; and a 'complete' (as far as the table of tuning is concerned) set of sound clips of the various scales and tunings being played so you acn hear the differences. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 14:12, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Add a video of me playing Feng Qiu Huang. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 19:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese

Why is there only the traditional form, not the simplified form for the chinese symbols? Bibliomaniac15 00:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I've been thinking about adding simplified forms, but my peers (who are qin players from the mainland) said nothing about it, so I'd assume they had no problem with it. Being a scholarly article about something as ancient as this, I thought traditional characters will suffice. But if you feel the need for the inclusion, then I will add them when i get home from work today. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 08:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I have added some simplified forms to those words which are necessary. Most of them can be guessed. For books, I will refer to the character set in which they are published in. I've did most of the article; but I will do more when I have more time to do a proper job of it.--Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 17:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

You can't please everyone — adding both tradition and simplified makes it slightly messy, can we just stick to one format? We can refer readers to the Chinese wiktionary for other purposes. Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 17:05, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes. But there's this debate I heard about with trad vs simp characters. As far as I'm concerned, I was taught traditional, so I use traditional. Other things is that you don't get more traditional than this instrument; most literature on it is in trad characters. Plus, I'd assume that the educated people will be able to read them. My peers from the mainland have no trouble with reading both. In any case, I won't be adding too much, unless it is necessary (like the book names that I will do later). --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 18:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, then what one should do is use pinyin alone, use simplfied/traditional alone, and then clarify the other symbolisms in a linked article...I mean we don't give the different ways to type Cao Cao every time we reference him. ;-) Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 18:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes but, Cao Cao needs only be referenced once and then you have no need to again. This article contains a multitude of names that 'may' require different versions. But I do agree, it can get rather messy. If it starts to become redundant, then we'll removed the 'supporting' character set and make it more uniform rather than go down the PC route.--Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 20:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other languages

Another question is: why does there need to be both Hiragana and Katagana (wouldn't Hiragana suffice?), Zhuyin (I would think Hanyu Pinyin suffices since this isn't a Chinese article), and all these Korean and Japanese romanizations? Might as well add Yale Romanization too then. 216.2.193.1 06:14, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The instrument was known and used in Japan, Korea, and other Asian nations, and used during various historical periods, thus sources will have the name of this instruments in various ways. Badagnani 06:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to be thorough, but if you feel there is too much, then I will delete some categories. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 08:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 詩經

「琴瑟在御，莫不靜好。」 "Qin and se are in my carriage; There is no-one who likes silence..."', the translation is probably wrong... --K.C. Tang 00:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Give us your best guess as to a more accurate translation, then. Badagnani 06:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Mind you, I'm not that up to scratch on my Classical Chinese. If you feel the need to correct my translations, do so without the need to ask questions. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 08:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Corrected translation. Got confused with the 莫不 clause... --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 08:58, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

all the translations are your own? in any case i can't judge, being a 古文-challenged 常人...:(--K.C. Tang 10:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha! You trying to read some of the classical qin texts! I don't get most of it, but just continue reading them coz they look beautiful to read! But after a while, you do sort of begin to crack it, and I am beginning to understand basic CC. Of course, I can't say that I'm literate in it like many people born in China at al... --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 11:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

"With qin and se in your hands; T'will emit its quiet plesant tones..." maybe you can revise this translation, which is grammatically incorrect...cheers--K.C. Tang 11:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Howz about: "With qin and se in hand; They will emit their quiet plesant tones..." ? --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 12:34, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mao numbers

The article contains the following sentence:

In the Shijing [...], several poems mention the qin (with their Mao numbers).

What are "Mao numbers"? —Babelfisch 00:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

"Mao" probably stands for Mao Shi (毛詩), a famous ancient commentary of Shiji. Mao Shi often used as a synonym of the poetry collection... but i've never heard of the term "Mao number"... --K.C. Tang 02:54, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

John Thompson called them Mao numbers so I assume they were the correct term. If you got a better term, then please tell so I can change / alter it. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 08:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I could change it to 'position number' as listed in the SJ? --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 09:05, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

these numbering systems are Western, i guess... the Chinese don't know the poems by some numbers...--K.C. Tang 10:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

In any case, I think JT wanted to know how to refer to them. It's like giving a quote from Shakespeare without giving reference of where, which act, which scene it comes from... --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 11:05, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, i've changed it to the number according to their order in the anthology. Hope that is more understandable. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 17:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

We need someone who knows something about the instrument to clean out the external links and remove linkspam. Yay! Isopropyl 01:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Erm, I know a lot about the instrument (otherwise, the article will still be in stub form)! Most of the external links are legit (from legit sites on qin, societies, news articles, etc); most have very good information. I've avoid all direct linkspams and promo sites. Most are rather informative, though I admit I haven't reviewed it for some time; one or two links might not be appropriate now. But please put links you feel not appropriate here so I can diseminate them here. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 08:30, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Great job

Love the article. Great job, everyone who worked on it. --F a ng Aili ^說嗎? 02:58, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suitable image?

Greetings. There is an image of a modern concert (employing Tang dynasty instruments) that may include two of these instruments. Note that this illustrates the use of stands and the positions of the instrumentalists. I have higher resolution originals for the left and right of this three image composite which I could upload if appropriate. Question: is the leftmost player in position to play? (She appears positioned near the end of the instrument.)

This image was taken at the Heubei Provincial Museum, September 2002

- Leonard G. 03:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, though the photo is an attractive one, none of the instruments is a guqin (they are probably guzheng). Marquis Yi, whose unearthed instruments are described on the photo's page, lived around the 5th century BC but the Tang Dynasty was c. 600-900 AD. The other instruments (except the bronze bells, stone chimes, and drum on pole) are 20th century models (the ruan lute, pipa, etc.) and the erhu fiddle wasn't used, at least in this context, during these ancient periods. It isn't clear what the second musician from the left is playing, though it might be a xun, and the next musician over looks like he's playing an amplified sheng, an instrument developed in the late 20th century. Badagnani 03:41, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I concur. None of the instruments are qins, and I don't think qins will be played in such a context. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 08:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I'll want to find a picture of an ancient form of the qin to illustrate. Will take a bit of time to find a clear one. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 09:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

No, I looked very carefully at a close up and there is (a replica of) an ancient qin! It's on the table in front of the girl playing the pipa, though too small to see and the pic is too general to justify putting it in the article.--Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 16:03, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow! I suspected that this would raise an expert, and it did. Thanks for the informative response. Best wishes, - Leonard G. 16:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, we are musicians afterall! And I'm the only qin player in wiki (I think... if there are more, then I'd have known by now)! --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 17:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Good eye! I didn't notice that qin before (if that's what it is), and even at the highest magnification it's hard to tell. Anyway, here's a photo of the Marquis Yi guqin: http://www.newyorkqin.org/journal/volume1/volume1no4p3.html

Badagnani 22:10, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll set up the picture later to go in the article. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 16:25, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Done! --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 07:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The word "the"...

I just recieved this e-mail from someone concerning this article:

"Hi, Charlie It is a wonderful article that has so many valuable information about Guqin. In general, please correct the mis-use of The. For example, in the third paragraph, The Guqin. ¡°The¡± should be removed, when you talk about Guqin in general ¡°the¡± in front of Guqin should be removed. Whenever, there is ¡°the Guqin¡±, it means ¡°this Guqin¡± or ¡°that Guqin¡±. ¡°The¡± is a short form of ¡°this or that¡±. For example, I have a Guqin. The Guqin has a very nice sound. Here The Guqin implies ¡°that Guqin the one I have¡±. If you say Guqin has 7 strings, you should not say ¡°the Guqin has 7 strings¡±. This sounds like this Guqin has 7 string while other Guqin may have 8 or 9 strings. Guqin has 7 strings. Means all Guqin has 7 strings. The Guqin is about 300 years old. Means that particular Guqin has 300 years history. We cannot say ¡°Guqin is about 300 years old¡± because it implies all Guqin has 300 years history. This is a common mistake we Chinese make. Hope I explain it clearly. Thanks, Xiaonan

Is the current use of the word "the" for the guqin wrong in the article? I'm slightly puzzled since it makes no big difference in my mind (and English is my first language...) whatsoever. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 10:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I just thought about it clearly and I think my current use is correct. After reading the The article, the person who email me has made a mistake in the useage of the word. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 13:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

You are fine, Charlie. I see no problems with your use of "the" anywhere in the article. I think your well intentioned commentator has "the" and "this" mixed up, perhaps? Not that I am attacking him! I have never successfully learned a second language at all, so I respect the heck out of those that do. Also, I found it a very good read. Nice work! And yes, Featured Articles usually attract vandals. Keep checking it throughout the day and they will go away soon. Thepearl204.76.128.217 14:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the use of "the guqin" to mean guqin in general is standard and perfectly correct in English. LDHan 14:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I thought I was going mad then! The person who e-mailed me is Chinese. I can understand the confusion because in Chinese, there is no equivalent to the word "the", we just use the noun without the need. I guess for someone who learns English, they can either overuse it or under use it. I've written a reply to said person. Hopefully they will realise the error. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 15:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The email comment about your use of the word "the" is incorrect. We would never say "Piano has 88 keys" any more than we'd say "Guqin is an ancient instrument." Anyway, aren't you British, Charlie? That's the country that invented the English language so I'd assume you'd be using it properly. Badagnani 22:14, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Would you believe it? S/he e-mailed me back to say that I am wrong and refered me to the Article (grammar) article! I've told them that if I'm wrong, then the whole English education system of Britain is wrong coz that's the way I was taught to use that, and that eceryone else I spoke to or heard, be it my teachers, university lecturers, the Queen, seem to agree with my usage... --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 16:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Finally! She admitted to her mistake (after a a forum of discussion on the subject to vindicate me)! We can all live happily ever after now! --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 08:50, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert wars, vandalism et al

OK, I'm getting ticked off... Does main page featured articles have this happening to them all the time? I'm not at home so I can't deal with them systematically... >_< --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 12:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Finally Warren Razzafelt has bitten the dust. But I'm sure there's more to come... *rolls eyes* --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 12:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 365 days?

Under the heading Construction, we find the following statement: "The entire length of the qin (in Chinese measurements) is 3 feet, 6.5 inches, representing the 365 days of the year (though this is just a standard since qins can be shorter or longer depending on the period's measurement standard or the maker's preference)."

I'm not sure I quite follow this. The guqin is apparently a very old instrument, so surely (as the final parenthetical phrase suggests) the original makers would not have been working with English Imperial measurements. If we say that the standard length "represents" the days of the year, then that implies that the standard length was deliberately established with that concept in mind.

The article adds the parenthetical phrase "in Chinese measurements." Is the author of these words saying that the English Imperial length of "3 feet, 6.5 inches" is an approximation of a Chinese measurement that works out to be roughly (or even precisely) equivalent to 3 feet, 6.5 inches? If so, then it seems unlikely that the ancient designers would have had "3 feet, 6.5 inches" in mind when they created the qin. Perhaps more recent Chinese instrument makers may have adopted this standard because they like the idea of aligning the length of the guqin to the length of the year, but if that's the case it would be nice to see that in the text.

On the other hand, perhaps there is an ancient Chinese system of measurement that reckons the length of the instrument at 3 "something," 6.5 "something," and the author is just calling these units feet and inches for the sake of simplicity in an English-language encyclopedia. If this is the case, then I'd like to suggest that the original units of measure be restored, perhaps with a brief explanation as to what they mean.

As it is, I, as the reader, tend to suspect that the length of the instrument really has nothing to do with the days of the week, but rather that the length in feet/inches is a coincidence that was noticed at some point in the recent history of the instrument and added to the guqin's mythology because it was appealing. If this is the case, then it might not be suitable fare for an encyclopedia article.

Of course, it's also possible that I've missed something that is obvious to everyone else. It wouldn't be the first time. :-) —CKA3KA (Skazka) 16:50, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

This measurement is refered to in many ancient texts about the qin. It obviously mreans in 'Chinese measurements' (i.e. Che/chi, cun and fen). The 'feet and inches' stuff is just an equivelant. If you find the statement needs more clarification, then I can add it in and reword it a bit. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 17:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Charlie, for the speedy response. The modification you've made to the article is wonderful! I see, now, why you initially thought it appropriate to state the dimensions in feet and inches. When I follow your link to Chinese units of measurement I see that, since the standardization of the 20th century, a chi is roughly equivalent to a foot (being about 1/3 of a meter). Still, using the Chinese units, as you've done, makes the text seem, at least to me, much more credible. Nice work, by the way, on this article. I should have said so in my previous post, but your work makes fascinating reading. —CKA3KA (Skazka) 18:14, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

It would be nice if this article had some mention of how to pronounce the word for those of us who don't know how to read pinyin. IPA, right at the top, is very common in articles whose subjects are foreign words. -lethe ^{talk +} 21:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

You mean put the IPA at the very top? OK then. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 21:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The word "guqin" as a noun

I think we'll have to sweep through all the articles and change all the "Guqin"s to "guqin"s. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 15:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guqin article template

I've created this template: {{Qin list}}

Guqin
古琴

Melodies

Schools

Societies

London Youlan Qin Society | New York Qin Society | North American Guqin Association

Historical personages

Bo Ya | Guo Chuwang | Song Huizong | Xi Kang | Zhu Quan

Players

To stick at the end of guqin realated articles to link them all together. It's best to keep the articles that are strictly guqin related. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 09:21, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Article review

Time for a review to see if we have kept the article good. I hope my contributions to it since the new year has done it good. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 15:11, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Nothing. So removed. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 09:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Aiyah, don't worry lah. The only thing I'm worried about is the sheer use of multilingual explanations, (which I think can be clarified if we turn them into links, blue links at that because they will be clarified in their own articles). Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 10:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meihua / plum blossom / prunus mune?

Someone changed the title of Meihua Sannong's translation from "Three Variations on the Plum Blossom Theme" to "Three Variations on the Mei Blossom Theme". After checking it up, I am puzzled as to why. From what I understand, Meihua has always been translated to "plum blossom" and does not need to be diverted to its original Chinese name, as nobody understands what flower it is in that form. Is this changing to Mei from plum blossom too much technical for the simple name of a piece of music? I think it adds too much and it would be simpler calling it plum blossom instead. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 18:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I've changed it back to plum blossom as everyone in the qin community calls it by that and it would confuse people if we have another name to refer to it... --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 08:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Korean use of guqin

It turns out that Koreans formerly used the guqin (along with the se) in their Munmyo jeryeak, or Confucian ritual music. There are pictures of this, and it's the actual small, black-colored guqin, not a Korean instrument. Is there a place this could be added? Badagnani 21:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think this may be a Korean hanja spelling for the instrument: 笒. Badagnani 13:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I had to check the Kangxi Zidian for the character and it says it is the name of a bamboo, sometimes used for the spindle of a cart, nothing about the qin; but that maybe a Korean independant development of the character. Could you cite a reference or online source so I can check it out? As to where to stick it, I'll have to see. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 18:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the main thing, I guess, is that its use with the se in Korean Confucian ritual music should be mentioned. The only references I could find to the special character is for the daegeum (large transverse bamboo flute) -- http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%E7%AC%92+daegeum -- some of the Korean or Japanese uses of Chinese characters are very interesting; although they might have arisen through misunderstandings they're often more appropriate than the original ones. I'd use the hanja for piri (觱篥) as an example. In fact, the Chinese characters for bili (篳篥) and haidi (海笛) (to spell words that probably weren't originally Chinese) are clever as well. Badagnani 20:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

This might be an excuse to create a new section on The guqin outside China oe something like that. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 09:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The article is already like 100kb so maybe some things like this should move to their own articles? But the Korean Confucian ritual use probably merits just a sentence or two, maybe with a link attached. Badagnani 20:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha! I still have pently to add to the article! Hmmm, it might do well in the societies section since I discussed the qin in Japan with a few sentences, or the history section, but it might not be that significant enough as I haven't mentioned Japn in there... Unless I move the Japan stuff there.--Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 09:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I just watched a DVD from The National Center for Korean Traditional Performing Arts of Munmyo jeryeak (Confucian ritual music, which uses the last two surviving a ak melodies from the importation of yayue from the Song Dynasty emperor Huizong in 1116) and they are using seul (se) and geum (guqin). The geum player's intonation doesn't seem that great but she does her best, and the seul player seems not really to be playing, but pretending to play. We should add something about this use of the geum in Munmyo jeryeak. Badagnani 10:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll figure something out when I return from LA. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 23:14, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I think you should add it to the playing context section. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 11:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Difference

What's the difference between "ancient stringed-instrument" and "ancient strung-instrument"? --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.45.181.9 (talk • contribs).

Basically, I'm trying to distinguish between "qin" and "zheng". They both relatively mean "stringed-instrument" but since they are different words in their own right in Chinese, I make this difference when translating it; otherwise, if I use the same translation, people might say qin and zheng are the same, which they are not. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 12:22, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I've changed the zheng trans to thus: "ancient stringed-instrument (with moveable bridges)". Hope that is OK. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 12:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Version 0.5 Nominations

OK, I've stuck the article on the nominations page of Wikipedia:Version 0.5. Hopefully, it will be included in it! We've all worked so hard and it is currently one of the best well researched articles on here, so it should be OK'ed without further editing on my part. *crosses fingers* --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 17:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It is done! --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 19:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Broken links

I'll stick any broken links here, just in case the link repairs itself:

China Guqin 中国古琴 A site containing a variety of indepth information about guqin subjects (Chinese)
Guqin Zhizuo Chuantong Gongyi 古琴制作传统工艺 A site about the construction of the Qin (Chinese)
China Style 中國風格 Talks about China's intangible heritage, with a bit of information about the qin
Shanghai that's Magazine: The Rebirth of the Qin - Shanghai's thriving guqin culture August circa. 2004
Shanghai Star: Ancient art comes to life 18th November 2004
Shanghai Star: Endangered harmonies 10th March 2005

--Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 18:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Emperor and the Assassin

Should The Emperor and the Assassin be added to the films section? I can't remember if there's guqin in the film but there should be if Gao Jianli is a character. Badagnani 18:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It should be confirmed first before adding it in. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 19:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] too long tag

OK, I added the too long tag because the article is one of the longer ones on all of Wikipedia, and should be split into sub-articles. It's 3 or 4 times the suggested length. I'm going to add it back in; if you think there's a good reason to remove it, please explain why here. Also, please assume good faith; I was not adding the tags wantonly without a desire to engage on talk page. -Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)} 06:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think the article has reached its zenith and won't grow much longer anymore. I'm reluctant to reduce it as I don't want to lose important information. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 16:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

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