Talk:Grozny

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This article is pathetic, for a city probably more ruined than Baghdad. Nomination after seeing a program on BBC last night about it all. I know some of the details on Chechen war etc. are in other articles, but the city (if what remains can be called such) deserves a decent article. Zoney 14:52, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I agree Zoney and I've just made a mental note to try and expand this some time, although I suspect I'll run into a dearth of information on the place. From pictures I have seen of Grozny it does look like it's been completely laid waste over the years. — Trilobite (Talk) 00:18, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This article could do with a little, hmm, balance. As it is it reads as if it was written by a junior official at the Kremlin press office, e.g. no mention of the fact that the Russian government pounded this city into small pieces, killing thousands of its own citizens in the process, or that the billions of dollars it subsequently allocated for Grozny's reconstruction after the 1994-96 war went missing.

First of all this article is fair and is balanced, I personally took part in liberating Grozny in 2000 and pieces or not there was a city to liberate. Also most of the population between 1990 and 2000 fled, particulary the indegious Russian minority so fact is thousands or not, most of the buildings were empty when we entered it in spring 2000.--Kuban Cossack 15:53, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Dear Mr anonymous, if the Russian government allocated billions of dollars for Grozny's reconstruction after 1994-1996 (personally I doubt it could have been anywhere near that figure) then it consisted indeed of drunks and imbeciles, because it was the separatist government of Maskhadov and Basaev who pocketed Russian and Saudi money (and yes, they also gave a lot between 1996 and 1999) and did not use it to reconstruct Grozny but to strengthen and export the Islamist revolution. You got the date wrong. (Pan Gerwazy)--pgp 15:29, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Article of the week? They have to be kidding. KNewman 12:16, Aug 14, 2004 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Name origin

the city was named after Ivan IV of Russia "The Terrible"

A dubious claim; removed until confirmation. Originally it was a fort, and the name "Grozny", which also means "threatening". was pretty natural. mikka (t) 17:36, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Bullshit confirmed; article updated. mikka (t) 17:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Russian (Terek Cossack) issue

I have added to the article about the history of Russian minority in the city. I would like anyone to tell me, if they know anything about the massacre that took place in 1944, just before the Chechens were deported. Kuban kazak 12:29, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


No "massacre" took place. In fact, the situtation was so peaceful that NKVD units sent to deport were disguised as frontline troops on R&R, vacationing in civilian houses.

This treachery allowed them to suddenly take the Checheno-Ingush populations by surprise on the Red Army Day and round up all people without practically any resistance (few men however managed to flee to the mountains, and there "bandits" staged a desperate struggle for several years after).

Separatist propaganda used this fact in 1994, when Udugov announced that Russians are really coming to deport them again and not only pacify as officially stated. This unified even much of anti-Dudaev opposition against the intervention. (anonymous)


The suggestion that there was no armed resistance by Chechen insurgents (as well as the suggestion that they did not collaborate with the Nazis) is untrue. Valentin Pikul' states in Barbarossa (most recent printing: 2006, AST, ISBN 5-17-024912-8) that at one time shortly before the siege of Stalingrad, almost all of the bomber planes active on the Caucasian front had to be diverted to quell the insurgency in Chechnya, and that Nazi aircraft made regular air-drops in the Chechen mountains and transmissions between Chechen insurgents and the Nazis were intercepted. Moonshiner 04:37, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Genocide" facts

No, it's NOT "confirmed fact", and "genocide" is not just a criminals at work (criminals, or even policemen, killed, raped and robbed people also at Moscow, and no one says of "genocide" in Moscow - check out definition of genocide), while exodus of Russians from elsewhere of ex-Soviet Union to Russia was and still is commonplace (and now even encouraged by the Russian governemnt, who counts 20 million ethnic Russians to return to their homeland) - even if they're often treated as an "illegal aliens" with practically no rights.

Exodus of Russians from USSR is irrelevant. Exodus of Russians from Russia, forced exodus is relevant. --Kuban Cossack 13:32, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

No, it's revelant. From all of the former Soviet Union, actually. Sometimes forced, yes - with few rights and abuse in their own homeland.

Yes it is because exodus of Russians from ex-USSR due to political conditions and exodus of Russian refugees from Chechnya due to ethnic clensing. --Kuban Cossack 23:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Also there are still some ethnic Russians in Grozny, with no help from the government (even their church bombed by Russian aircrafat in 1995 was still in ruins when I heard last time). Most of civilians who died in 1994-96 and many of these who died in the second war were ethnic Russians, too poor or old to move elsewhere and with no families in a villages to stay there (like how many of their Chechen neighbors did) and the heaviest devastation was in the ethnic Russian majority downtown. According to some estimates (link below), Russian military killed 35,000 [citation needed] ethnic Russians in Chechnya. Countless others lost their health or property. No, I'm not saying these deaths and destruction (and looting) were "genocide", too

You do realise you are going to have to provide sources for this original research--Kuban Cossack 13:32, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

First link. Also a lot of others, if you want later.

Well all of this orginal research will have to be referenced with credible sources.--Kuban Cossack 23:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

So, please don't push anything what is not even a Russian government's official propaganda, thank you. And as we are talking about this, check out situation of Russians in for example "friendly" Turkmenistan.

Off topic is off topic.

Not really OT.

Yes it is OT

In fact, the only episode of real genocide in XXth century Chechnya happened in 1994, when at result of the deportation by NKVD 1/3 to half of the entire Chechen population died during 2-day-only brutal round-up (on one occasion, an entire village of 500 was burned alive, because deemed "difficult to transport" by its isolation), long transport in an Auschwitz-style trains, or a first years in exile in Siberia and Kazakhstan.

No single Chechen was allowed to remain in their homeland, even Communist party dignitaries went on the last train - the only difference a passeneger one. Even their cemeteries, books and other cultural heritage was destroyed (additional practice called cultural genocide). Obviously it was aimed at destroying Chechen nation as a whole (and several others, because it wasn't the only wholesale deportation of '40s - several other nations were also targetted).

Another would be part of the Stalin's war on "kulaks" in case of Terek Cossacks in 1930s (forced famine), but it's usually taken in context of the extended Ukrainian genocide.

Don't use one crime to justify another, please. --Kuban Cossack 13:32, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

First, learn what genocide is. No, it's not when mobsters or policemen rob or rape people in Moscow (yes, I mean your own "militia" police - according to your government's official statistics, they commited 50% more crimes in 2005 than just a year before - no, not a "genocide", just crimes). Even Dudaev's wife was a Russian woman from Estonia.

What does Moscow militia and your original research as well as Dudaev's wife have anything to do with the anarchial period of 1990-94 for the Russians

Examplary (and recent) article about the true fate of Russians in Grozny, and also refugees in Russia: [1]

Another one, from 2003: [2]

Its good you can provide sources, but so can I. First off census figures.
Census Year Russian Chechen Ingush
1939 201010 368446 83798
1959 348343 243974 48273
1970 366959 508898 113675
1979 336044 611405 134744
1989 293771 734501 163762
2002 5559 + 40645 95403 + 1031647 361057 + 2914

2002 is given for Ingusheita and Chechnia respectively--Kuban Cossack 13:32, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

So if if the Chechens and Ingushetians managed to multiply their numbers quite strongly between 1989 and 2002, for Russians there seems to be a 250 000 deficiency. So why did they flee, because of the Russian governemnt that is killing them along with Chechens? Or because of scenarios like this [3] in particular [4]. --13:41, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Russian nationalist pages. Do you want me to quote Kavkaz Center on that matter or what? Please, let's not get silly.

Census data comes from [5]

Also, numbers of Russians IN WHOLE RUSSIA decline fast - while minorities rise, especially Muslims and Chinese (there are several millions people less in Russia than few years ago - and by 2050 there can be only half of todays numbers, with Russians in minority). Some areas in Siberia are now actually almost entirely depopulated, while Chinese take place of Russians in Far East. Are you claiming "genocide of Russians by Siberians", etc? I hope not.

Compare neighbouring Dagestan for your information with your original research statements.

Census Year Russians
1979 201010
1989 165940
2002 120875

Sorry 1989-2002 and a decrease of 45000 compared to 250000. Work out your percentages. -Kuban Cossack 14:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Here is another article [6]. Finally no need to post Kavkaz center, since you preatty much repeat what they say there anyway. --Kuban Cossack 14:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I actually don't read KC, or anything by Udugov (or Yastrzembsky, for that matter). Any propaganda is just propaganda. I compared "front.ru" to KC because it's obviously nationalist website and as such it's worth nothing.

Also, if you really want to help the refugees, help them - give them job or homes your goventment didn't, or send food or money to these remaining in Chechnya. No need to invent "genocide" on the internet encyclopedia, it's silly.

That term is not invented. Actually the point where I agree with you is that I am wondering why the government is ignoring this problem. --Kuban Cossack 23:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

And PLEASE, just read what really genocide is - not every crime, war crime, or even crime aganist humanity constitutes genocidal activity (and in case of former Yugoslavia of the all incidents of ethnic cleansing, massacres, concentration camps etc only the slaughter of Srebrenica was declared genocide by the UN tribunal - the first such verdict since the post-WWII Nurnberg btw, along with the Rwandan genocide in Africa).

Well in that case mass deportation of Chechens in WWII would also not be a genocide now?--Kuban Cossack 23:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

The figures quoted above have a 13 year gap between 1989 and 2002. Too imprecise to acknowledge anything. Personally, I have no reason to believe that the figures for the total population and the urban population of Chechnya quoted on this page are wrong: [7]

No census, only estimates, but very telling figures.I mean the table just above the town and village table. This table suggests a decrease in the urban population between 1981 and 1985. Quite exceptional in those days in the Soviet Union. So, indeed it suggests Russians were leaving. 80,000 at least. OK, it may not have been 100% voluntarily (although most who left then are probably very happy about it now), but it is only 17% of the total urban population in four years - so that does not look like ethnic cleansing. The figures from 1992 to 2000 tell a different story. The outflow after 1996 tells it all: except for some non-Islamic ethnic Chechens, there can hardly have been anyone but Russians leaving towns in Chechnya between 1994 and 1999. So, yes, Russians were beyond doubt the victim of ethnic cleansing under Dudaev and Maskhadov. Genocide, however, it was not. That involves killing, or driving away people under circumstances that they could not survive. If that had happened, mass graves would have been found by now.

Interestingly, the same site claims at [8] that the birth rate in Grozny is actually going DOWN (4.3 in 2001 versus 2.1 in 2002), so it is not like Chechens are breeding like rabbits to stop their population declining - which should happen if there was a genocide going on. The claim about a genocide of ethnic Chechens that has been made by Russophobes in the West may have been caused by the temporary population decrease of Chechnya in 2000 - which was probably caused by hundreds of thousands of Chechens fleeing to Ingushetia, or to the mountains, where they could not be counted (see the table again). As these people return, they are again counted and we again see normal figures.

By the way, the Orthodox church in Grozny is indeed being restored: [9](interesting story about Zigulin and Zakaev). Comment by Pan Gerwazy--pgp 15:29, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, I added the information about the church to the article. I am still at a loss about these two troublesome passages (the massacre of Russians in 1944 and the genocide in the 90s. Personally I would change that first one into "asserted" as well (though I understand Stalin never asserted it, and it is probably just a myth) and change genocide into ethnic cleansing. That would not normalize the article, but put it a bit on the way. Anyone who agrees? Pan Gerwazy --pgp 23:30, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "ethnic cleansing" question

No, ethnic cleansing is expelling (or killing) ALL members of the ethnic group. If you see, for example, photos from Vukovar, you can see Serb troops rounding up all Croats from the fallen city, including old women etc, as the city was simply emptied (and some massacred, among them the wounded and hospital workers). Or what happened in 1944 Chechnya (and Ingushetia). Obviously, in Grozny the babushkas stayed (and many others too). The proper term would be rather harrasment and discrimnation (including losing jobs "essentional to state security" and sometimes apartments, and little protection from a criminal attacks - which isn't surprising since then Grozny mayor Bislan Gantamirov himself was a former criminal in Moscow - before he conflicted with Dudayev and defected to the opposition and later federals, so he would become mayor again).

Yes there were, there are documented accounts, videos showing how Dudaev's gunmen intruded into people's apartments and told them to get out. Many left to Russia proper, some had nowhere to go and stayed there (I have seen them myself). --Kuban Cossack 17:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
In the real ethnic cleansing, there's no "I can't go elsewehere, so I'll stay". If one can't move, then is killed. In the very recent history of Caucasus, you can see the example of Georgians in Abkhazia (and I'm talking about Georgian MAJORITY), and Azeris in Nagorno-Karabakh. Also North Ossetian border conflict in the very RF, where the Ingush were rounded into a "hostage camps" (one in Beslan school) and expelled in the course of few days ("5-days-war"). It's all happening very quickly, with a prison camps and mass atrocities. You know how much it took the Soviet forces to round up or kill the Chechens - 2 days. Not 2 years, or 16 years. Chechen war is no ethnic conflict Balkan-style, or else every Russian babushka would be simply thrown out from balcony - and even said Orthodox church (only one in the Soviet city, there was only one mosque too) was demolished by the Russian bombs. And stop using silly "NPOV" excuse - It's not that like it's something like "the former Soviet master race saw their tables turned on them in the decolonised nation". ALSO, that's exactly what the Russian soldiers did, too - before demolishing buildings they were evicting people, of course. And not only just after the 2000 battle (inlcuding practically all apartment towers leveled) - for example when the Mi-26 was shot down in 2002, residents of 6 apartment blocks on a street near Khankala were given just 15 mins for evacuation before demolition in reprisals (missile was fired from a roof of one). Not even mentioning widespread looting, or zachistka "cleansing operations" and night dissapearances. Or the "filtration camps", for that matter. Or a discovery of mass grave near Khankala, or in a basement of former OMON post in Grozny. So, I guess, you should shut up now. And my offer on Gantamirov article stays (you know his Moscow gangster background, don't you?).
250000 is not ethnic clensing? That is more than Ingushetians in Ossetia and Azeris in Karabakh combined!--Kuban Cossack 19:23, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Not if not leaving under a gunpoint, rounded up first then escorted to the destination or killed (I guess you know the deal - if not, 1944 in the same place). I mentioned the church from the article not without an important reason - in the ethnic cleansing, symbolic buildings are the first to go (check out what happened with mosques in most of Bosnia during 1992-95, so the same time period). But no, it stayed, until the Russian army destroyed the city and the church too. And as I said, it's happening fast - days to weeks to "clean" the territory (if the "filth" don't resist that is). Also, how many millions Russians left Russia? Not to mention other post-Soviet republics (to Russia or elsewhere, doesn't matter). Is there a genocide of Russians in Turkmenistan? Yes, it is - even if only a cultural genocide (no right to be a Russian, because Turkmenbasha is insane - but he's also friend of the Russian government, so it appearently doesn't matter - I guess you don't even hear nothing about this in your media, nota bene banned in Turkmenistan). Even here, Buddha examples were mentioned - annihilated, even if there were no Buddhists in Afghanistan (yes, this church again). Also, not only Russians were attacked by the Chechen criminal elements. After the recent infamous case of Vostok Battalion's attack on a Dagestani ethnic village (few killed, 12 dissaepared, mass exodus of about 1,000 remaining on the other of the border), it was revealed the same men used to harras them as the Ichkeria soldiers (now they're Russia's "Specnazovtsy", still under reputed criminal Yamadayev brothers - they used to be called "bandits" once, and in their case quite rightly, but now they're Heroes of Russia somehow). Same thing like with Ganatamirov, because your government loves the Chechen criminals, if only they're opportunistic and not idealistic (like was Nukhayev). Also still, about these who stayed because they couldn't leave for any reason - good work with blowing up and burning down their homes, or crippling or killing them, now their fate is so much better (as if of these who left), isn't it? No, I don't think so... really. Well, lots of words. Try answering in more than one line and regarding my arguments, and keep the discussion HERE.

No, ethnic cleansing does not imply necessarily having to physically leave at gun point. Since you continue to mention Yugoslavia: [10] Was this guy ethnically cleansed in 1995? Of course he was, a European court has decided he was. And the Serbs of Krajina did not leave at gunpoint, they fled out of fear, and yes, a lot of elderly babushkas and dedushkas remained behind. Is this guy being ethnically cleansed today (well, 2004 to be exact)? The local CROAT reporter for the BBC seems to think he is. Being denied medical care, being denied a loan by every bank while he came to reconstruct his parents' business is not simply "discrimination". And yes, the Krajina Serbs all left in six days, a limited number of babushkas were thrown out of windows by heroic Croat soldiers (Gotovina is not at The Hague accused of "discrimination") but this thing is/was still continuing in 2004. Like the Serb and Roma exodus out of Kosovo is still continuing. You cannot simply say something is not ethnic cleansing because it takes a long time to achieve its ultimate goal.

However, I do agree that in armed conflicts it is always difficult to say later who kept their hands clean. The following German guy made a political career out of the votes of "ethnically cleansed" German refugees from eastern Europe after the war: [11] Fascinating reading, if you know German. Bataillon Bergmann who were notorious even to the German SS for their brutality against civilians contained a high number of Chechens (former prisoners of war) and at one time claimed 1,000 infiltrators (they answered partisan war with ... partisan war) in the Vedeno region and 325 (of whom 300 deserters) in Grozny. No, this is not Soviet propaganda, it is what Oberlaender wrote and said himself after the war. The standard book is by Albert Jeloschek, Friedrich Richter, Ehrenfried Schütte, Johannes Semmler: “Freiwillige vom Kaukasus. Georgier, Armenier, Aserbaidschaner, Tschetschenen u. a. auf deutscher Seite. Der “Sonderverband Bergmann” und sein Gründer Theo Oberländer.” Leopold Stocker Verlag, Graz-Stuttgart, ISBN 3-7020-0984-1 When the Germans were thrown out of the Caucasus, the Bataillon Bergmann was sent to the Crimea, to Poland (where it helped in the suppression of the Warsaw uprising) and to France, where they were used against the French Resistance in the Vercors. A source in French for Oberländer and the Bataillon bergmann: [12] Unfortunately, Google does not provide much info in English. But there is some in its cache. The only article in English Wikipedia is the article Reichskommissariat Kaukasus which does not even mention the Chechen presence in the Battalion (but does in another one)--pgp 11:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] tram photo

You could name a street decipted, so I could provide contemplatory post-95 and post-2000 photos.

[edit] terminology for a separatist combatants

Google gives you 60,500 hits for "chechen militants", 119,000 for "chechen fighters", and 271,000 for "chechen rebels" (and only 640 for "chechen bandits", for that matter). Comply.

[edit] Photo's of 2006

Some new photographs of Grozny can be found at mosnews ([13]). Maybye some could be used in this article. --Hardscarf 18:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1995 body dumps

[14] [15] [16] [17] Obviously copyrighted and shown only as example. If you want, I can also show you elderly/abandoned Russians leaving the ruined city - on foot, and only with a handful of baggage (in 1995, yes). --HanzoHattori 08:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but that does not show anything, first there is no source and nothing to confirm that it is Gorzny or anyplace else, please provide CREDIBLE and ADEQUEATE SOURCES. --Kuban Cossack 10:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I can't find the source like that, on demand. These bodies belonged mostly to the abandoned and alienated Russians, because Chechens were either able to shelter at their families in a villages, or had friends and families to properly take care of the bodies in the case of death (and the funerals were taking place even under the bombardment). When the Chechens take care of their bodies they shroud them and store in mosques, and they have to bury them fast according to the religion. Btw, many bodies of a Russians soldiers themselves were without any funeral for years (unidentified ones). The Russians did the similiar thing to the 1995 dumps in 2000 too, for the civilians and combatant Chechens, when they were still giving away enemy bodies without ransom in at least some instances (since 2002 it's the official policy of an unmarked graves). These varied really, from uncovered trenches (including bound-together by wire), to on-ground displays, to only heads sticking off from a temporary grave site. Anyway, the Russian survivors and their "means of transport" (with the landmarks, so you won't say it's not Grozny and not 1995, which was really silly/highly unproper btw): [18] [19] [20] --HanzoHattori 13:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Read what is WP:NOR - NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH. Thus that little tale hold little value, and actually for someone to have fought in the second Chechen war and participated in the seige of Grozny looks rather BSish. --Kuban Cossack 11:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hey, so, what's your problem?

Is it important "the Russians slowly entered the empty city", but not explaining [citation needed] about PAP-1 is not? Covert air operations were conducted since August 1994 (for example, helicopters attacked Grozny airfields on Sep 29 - first official attacks started only on Nov. 29); 4 helicopters and 1 Su-25 were shot down in November. What else? --HanzoHattori 15:39, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

References! Second why did you remove about the Russian flag, why did you insert unrefrenced tombstone claims but removed the massacre bit, let's go through points together and NOT edit anything except "fact" templates. Removing information is just as bad as adding unrefrenced sources. However, in WP:FAITH I urge you to discuss all of the points, for instance feel free to add things about Railway communications and other points which are not going to be disputed one way or another. --Kuban Cossack 18:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
That's it? Are you kidding me? Everyone in Chechnya knows and tells visitors about the uprooted tombstones, it's a major source of national trauma. [21] [22] [23] [24] etc etc. In 1992 symbolically some were made into the deportation memorial, and it's till there, only damaged by war. [25] They also dynamited many ancient towers in the mountains, and they burned the books. [26] Ever heard of cultural genocide? The destruction of the past is done to eradicate the memory of those who occupied the land before, much like the revision of history in Orwell's 1984. In Chechnya, the Soviets bulldozed graveyards and used gravestones to pave roads. [27] "Referenced" now? Russia's UN office, maybe? [28] --HanzoHattori 21:09, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
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