Talk:Group of death

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Contents 1 History 2 Groups of Death in 2006 3 Merge 4 "Group of Life" 5 Informal wording 6 Fifa WC 2006

[edit] History

The claim that the term "group of death" was coined by the Uruguay manager in 1986 is very questionable. I remember that when I was a child in 1982 everybody in Italy talked about "il gruppo della morte" when referring to the second phase group of Brasil, Argentina and Italy. I am sure that if one has one issue of "La Gazzetta" of those days it would be easy to prove that the denomination is much older than stated in the article. Unfortunatley I cannot prove this myself.

[edit] Groups of Death in 2006

This was discussed in Talk:2006 FIFA World Cup, where a consensus was reached that both groups C and E should be mentioned as groups of death in the 2006 cup. While many think that group E has the stronger claim; Wikipedia should bow to press coverage, which has identified both groups E and C as such. --EngineerScotty 20:49, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I have removed this claim:

However, group C has failed to live up to the title, advancing the Netherlands and Argentina after just four out of six matches. Group E lived up to its billing as a group of death with one of two lower ranked teams advancing.

Which seems to assume that a "Group of Death" is (a) one where nothing is decide till the last matches and (b) one where a UEFA/CONMEBOL team loses out to a "lower" team. That is not any of the interpretations listed earlier in the article. The consensus is that Ivory Coast were unlucky to be in such a tough group and only lost their games narrowly. That said, something general might be said about retropspective withdrawal of "group of death" status. jnestorius^(talk) 13:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I've merged to this article from the Group of Death article. Apologies if I've trodden on any toes in my editing... happy to be put right. It was interesting to see how much material existed on each page that wasn't on the other. Hopefully, the composite is a much better article than either of the originals was. --Dweller 09:43, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Group of Life"

I'm really, really tempted to delete the "Group of Life" reference, but just because I've never heard of it, doesn't mean it's something made up in school one day. I'm happy to assume good faith but the unpleasant "nonce" reference (now deleted) made me even more suspicious.

I'd appreciate some consensus here before I wade in with my big feet. --Dweller 09:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Ditto, I have never heard of the term... perhaps we could remove it until citable evidence of its use can be provided. Budgiekiller 09:51, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say exactly the same for Group of Sleep. Delete or at most redirect it here. jnestorius^(talk) 13:06, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... of course, I've heard of the Group of Sleep (I started the article) so I'm not sure. I'll start a parallel consensus request on that talk page. --Dweller 13:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

And how is "nonce" unpleasant? It reinforces exactly the point you make. jnestorius^(talk) 13:08, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks - I followed your link and was amazed. Not my understanding at all of what "nonce" means. --Dweller 13:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

See the third entry in the nonce article. --Dweller 18:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I've fallen foul of the same mistake for the same reasons, Dweller! You're not alone. Budgiekiller 18:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Informal wording

...or one or more of the 'underdog' teams could prove to be a 'banana skin' for the favourite (or favourites) to proceed.

Could someone rephrase the above sentence with more precise and less informal words? The meaning is not clear to me as a non-native english speaker, and the description is certainly not encyclopedic. Maybe even the whole sentence could be removed, since it doesn't add anything important to the definition. rbonvall 05:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll look at it with pleasure. --Dweller 09:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fifa WC 2006

From Fifa World Rankings, May 2006 (the last set produced before the World Cup).

• USA- 5th
• Italy - 13th
• Czech Republic - 2nd
• Ghana - 48th

Average (mean) ranking: 17th

• Serbia and Montenegro - 44th
• Argentina - 9th
• Cote D'Ivoire - 32nd
• Netherlands - 3rd

Average (mean) ranking: 22nd

--Dweller 10:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

But the FIFA ranking is plain idiot :-/ Before the world cup, there where 2 north american team in the top five and no African team in the top 20. Basically, the best of a set of weak teams playing against each other will reach a high ranking.