Talk:Ground attack aircraft

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[edit] Merge

So, ground attack aircraft includes all "light" aircraft dedicated to taking out land-based targets...?

Those all count, right? I'm catagorizing planes for World War II and it'd help to have a hierarchy in mind. Oberiko 15:11, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This page is messed up, and contains no link to naval aviation, which has needs of its own. Naval attack aircraft attempt to sink ships as well as destroy tactical ground targets. During WWII, these were called "Torpedo Bombers" and "Dive Bombers". The Japanese had long-ranged ground-based naval attack aircraft of their own, which the US did not, thinking that strategic (high-altitude, level) bombers such as the B-17 and B-24 could do the trick, but they failed at this, though B-24s could attack submarines at low level. Other aircraft used to destroy ships were the Observation aircraft, which would check to see the damage that battleship rounds were making on the target, and not attacking by themselves. In the US Army Air Corps, Attack Aircraft were not strategic (this was before nuclear weapons, though) and long-ranged, but tactical.

As for Oberiko's question, besides "dive bombers," there are "light bombers" (technically horizontal or level bombers, though they aren't called that), which are different ways of attacking a target. Eventually the Attack aircraft and the Light Bomber aircraft designs became practically indistinguishable. I think the distinction involves forward basing in rudimentary conditions (attack) as opposed to secure basing with lots of maintenance equipment (bomber), but that's just a guess.

"Fighter-bomber" derives from WWII, as the fuselage designs of fighter planes which weren't up to interception any longer, but which just happened to make good attack aircraft, using their powerful engines not for travelling fast, but for carrying a bomb. After WWII, purpose-built fighter-bombers were made by the USAF, because they didn't like the designation "Attack" aircraft any more -- the US Navy used it to take the place of the Torpedo and Dive Bombers once a design was made (Douglas Skyraider) which could do both. The USAF concentrated on fighter planes and long-range bombers.

"Strike fighter" is a late postwar British phrase for a plane which can do light bombing, and fight its way out. Currently neither the USAF and USN use this phrase; there's the ghastly term "F/A-18" instead. --Sobolewski 20:23, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I have put a merge template on close air support and ground attack aircraft as ground attack redirects to "close air support".

Yes I know that Ground attack aircraft could be a "list of ground attack aircraft" and perhapse it should me moved to that name with a redirect of "ground attack aircraft" to "close air support".

The problem is that there are a number of conflicting articles and redirects which are not clearly deliniated and say similar things:

ground attack redirects to "close air support"
attack aircraft redirects to "ground attack aircraft"
Fighter bomber redirects to "ground attack aircraft"
Strike fighter is its own article.

also:

Air interdiction and Aerial interdiction are two different pages!
Offensive counter air
Tactical bombing and Tactical bomber (one is the doing the other are the planes -- which is how "close air support" and "ground attack aircraft" could be divided).
Airstrike which has a merge template at the top suggesting a merge with bomb but could be merged into "ground attack" or "Aerial interdiction".

I am also putting this on to the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Military aviation task force#Close air support - ground attack aircraft - strike fighter

--Philip Baird Shearer 10:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

It looks like we might be heading for a tank classification type article at this rate. I personally feel that close air suport is a particular (US?) topic and as such should cover what it is and how it works but any excess on ground attack belongs in ground attack aircraft. It would also be an appropiate see also for the ground attack article. There is a parallel with Naval gunfire support (ie shore bombardment) and Naval artillery. Each of the terms attack aircraft, fighter bomber, etc should be described in the ground attack aircraft article - where there is meat enough for a full article then this is easily indicated with Template:main. Thus this article remain general but comprehensive while subarticles can become specific.GraemeLeggett 10:52, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that what started this mess is that people that created these articles oh so many moons ago truly did not understand the terms they were using. I will try to hit as many of these as possible in no particular order just as I see them. Ground attack is close air support and specific platforms that were dedicated for this are the A-10 Warthog and the AV-8B Hrrier II. That being said, both of these aircraft can be sent long of the FSCL to drop ordinance and then they would be doing Air Interdiction or stike as it is sometimes called. The latest generation of military aircraft do many task where once they only did one or maybe two. I don't even know if the term Fighter bomber is used anymore. I think that is one of those terms pulled out of thin air or from old articles. The Air & Aerial Interdictions should be merged. Airstrike does refer to both CAS and AI so both are correct. Might be better to make that a disamgiuation page??? Tactical bombing and tactical bomber should remain separate articles. The first refering to the doctrine, employment and tactics while the latter should speak of tactical bombers and their evolution from the Lancasters (or whatever the first was) to the B-2s of today skimming on the highlights with links to individual article pages. Cloase Air Support is US/CAN/AUS doctrine. The Brits do not use the term in their doctrine but their pilots are very familiar with it and the entire Joint Close Air Support publication (3-9) as they use the NATO 9 line format. These are just my initial thoughts I would need a bit of time to put together a map for a possible flow for these. I have been meaning to really delve into this part of Wikipedia but I wanted to finish my goal of a page for every USMC unit before I started delving heavily into doctrine. All I ask is that we take this slow and do it right before making any changes, merges, etc....--Looper5920 11:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I am glad that someone who knows what ther are talking about would like to look into this. But I would like to pick up on a couple of points you raised:

"don't even know if the term Fighter bomber is used anymore" please remember that these articles should cover not just the current military usage, but also historical usage (WWII etc) and common current usage (eg (first returned by google) James Astill US pilot 'not at fault' for killing Afghan children The Guardian March 11, 2004), .
Stratigic bombers can be used in a tactical role as were Lancs before D-Day 1944 and B52s still are. However we have a whole different (much worse) mess with stratigic bombing articles (see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Military aviation task force#Aerial bombing :-(

--Philip Baird Shearer 12:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

- Agree with the points you raise but you did kind of prove my original thesis right about those who don't know creating terms when you mention an article in the Guardian and use of the term fighter bomber. The term has not been used in western militaries for years but jounalists and the like bring it up because they are terms they remember from when they watched those old WWII newsreels (and the like) when they were younger. Anyway, give me a day or two and let em see if I can't sketch some coherent framework together.--Looper5920 12:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Same here! I agree with the guy above me. In fact, the term "Fighter/bomber" is not used. The "Fighter/bomber designation just melded in with the attack class in about 1950. Storywitter3000

"attack class" - is that strictly US term?

[edit] Close Air Support

Close Air Support is a doctrinal term describing a role or mission that can apply to Attack or Ground Attack Aircraft, but the opposite relationship isn't always automatic. Interdiction is also a doctrinal term that can describe a role that applies to the same aircraft. Are we also recommending that Interdiction and Close Air Support be merged?

I recommend the two not be merged. I also think that Ground Attack is really an outmoded term, since it is somewhat redundant. An Attack Aircraft is an aircraft that traditionally delivers air-to-ground munitions to targets that are on the ground.

So, I recommend:

Ground attack aircraft be renamed to Attack Aircraft to decrease any confusion with people not familiar with the difference between Ground Attack Aircraft and any techniques of attacking the ground referred to as Ground Attack.
Ground attack be merged with/redirected to Air Interdiction or Aerial interdiction, whichever variant wins out in that merge discussion.
Close Air Support be left alone. This is a specific mission relating to the support of ground troops in contact with an enemy force. (Born2flie 00:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC))

Gotcha. Merge request already got killed on the CAS page for exactly the reasons you outlined. I'll take it off this one. I'm not sure if the renaming is apropos - generally the most accurate title is desired; I'd rather have "attack aircraft" redirect here than vice versa. You're welcome to put it up to discussion. I dont think that Ground attack should redirect to CAS over AI or vice versa; since it applies equally to both, why not a stub/disambig page?--Mmx1 00:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)