Talk:Großglockner
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[edit] Titling
Seems like we've had this discussion about a zillion times already, but I don't think the use of "ß" instead of "ss" is quite right in the English forms of names. For instance, my Encyclopedia of the World's Mountains, which is pretty authoritative, uses "ss". Stan 06:02, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Well, whatever -- there should at least be a redirect (which there wasn't). In this case, *Grossglockner would alter the pronounciation of the name, which might be an argument.Martg76 06:50, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Redir is good - but your point about pronunciation is why there's an English version of the name - the average English speaker would not recognize the difference between "ss" and "ß". I studied German for several years, dunno if I could pick it out reliably. See ß for amusing detail. Stan 14:57, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Translation of Großglockner to English
The translation of Großglockner to English as "Big bell" is wrong. Big bell would be translated into German as "große Glocke". "-glockner" doesn't mean anything at all in contemporary German. It might etymologically derive from "Glocke" (its shape resembles a bell) or from "Gold-klocken" (a notion for mining gold). Both interpretations are highly speculative. Therefore I removed the "German" translation. Gugganij 15:39, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Requested move
Standard English spelling of this name from the entry on the WP:RM page. – AxSkov (☏)
- Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
- Support. See above. – AxSkov (☏) 09:22, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose. See below. Markussep 10:38, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
- Support. Philip Baird Shearer
- Oppose. Stemonitis 10:36, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
- Support. Stan 16:15, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
- Support. Mark 05:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
- Support, title is not in standard Latin alphabet. 67.71.169.168 04:52, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose. Let's set guidelines rather than fight 1000s of separate battles. –Hajor 19:20, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose. German is written in the Latin alphabet and thus needs no transliteration. I would support the inclusion of the 'ss' form in parentheses, though. In fact I think I'll add it now. I also agree with User:Hajor that we shouldn't fight each case but establish general rules. (See Talk:Höðr for another recent example.) - Haukur Þorgeirsson 20:56, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
- Support. As a student of Latin, I can assure you the ß character does not appear in Latin alphabet, nor is it in the modern English alphabet. Quintusdecimus
- Again I ask you: What is your preferred name for the alphabet used to write such languages as English, German, French and Icelandic? - Haukur Þorgeirsson 08:57, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose. I agree with the arguments of –Hajor and Haukur Þorgeirsson Edinborgarstefan 21:09, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
- Support. Unlike English, German is written with the German alphabet, which includes ß... unless you are Swiss.--Tysto 00:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
- Support. If this were the German Wikipedia my vote would probably be different (but maybe not, not even all German speakers use this character). On the English Wikipedia, however, article titles should be in English letters to be accessible to our readers. We should keep the German lettering in the article, just not in the title. Jonathunder 00:44, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
- Support, of course, following well-established conventions here on the English Wikipedia. CDThieme 02:14, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
- Support. Tree&Leaf 07:56, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose, if the mountain had an English name, of course we would use that. But the mountain has no English name, so we use the German name. And the German name is spelled with ß. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 06:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
- Comment: Grossglockner is the name that it is referred to in English language encyclopaedias and other print media. Mark 07:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
- Please see my suggested compromise at Talk:Weißenburg-Gunzenhausen. --Stemonitis 07:52, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
- Totally Oppose. As a German-speaker I can tell you that writing it with a "ss" can be misleading, not only from the pronounciation. The "ß" and the "ss" both exist in German. The Großglockner is written with an "ß", anything deviating from that is totally incorrect. Gryffindor 01:18, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
- In German maybe, but not in English, it is correct to use 'ss' in place of ß. This is English Wikipedia after all. Mark 04:20, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
- That is besides the point. You can write it with an "ss" if there is no other option. However since Wikipedia supports the "ß", writing it in another version is simply wrong, German or English. Gryffindor 21:45, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
- The ß as 'ss' is correct in written English. Mark 04:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
- In German maybe, but not in English, it is correct to use 'ss' in place of ß. This is English Wikipedia after all. Mark 04:20, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
- Support since ß is a ligature for double s, after all, not a letter, and is frequently written as "ss" even by German speakers and almost always by some German speakers. To do otherwise in the English Wikipedia, where most readers are not familiar with ß and may confuse it with B, is not the best service to the reader. No Account
- Please read the article on ß. While it may historically be a ligature for 'ss' it is today usually thought of as a separate letter and has a phonetic value distinct from 'ss'. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:52, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion
- Add any additional comments
There is currently a discussion about the use of ß in article titles at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English), let's wait what comes out of that. Markussep 10:38, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
- Furthermore, there is no "standard English spelling" for an Austrian mountain like this. There is only good German and bad German. Großglockner is good German; Grossglockner is bad German. --Stemonitis 10:36, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
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- Well, actually there is plenty of English-language literature that establishes a "standard English spelling". For instance, Huxley's Encyclopedia of the World's Mountains puts its entry at "Grossglockner", as does my tourist guide to Austria (from Off the Beaten Track series). It's like "Milan" vs "Milano" - "Milan" is bad Italian, but good English. Stan 16:15, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
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- The Milan example is different. That's where there is an English name that can be used (regardless of where it came from). It's the same situation as Vienna, which is good English, Wien being the correct German. Milan is not bad anything, merely the (correct) English name for an Italian city. Großglockner has no English name, which is why we can only call it Großglockner. Since we're using a German name, we should use German spelling. --Stemonitis 07:55, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
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- Why do you continue to say that the mountain "has no English name", when I've just cited two printed works that clearly use "Grossglockner"? And those are just the ones that happen to be on my personal bookshelves. If you have an English-language printed source that goes the other way, please cite it. Stan 18:16, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
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- I don't think your citations are proof that the English name of Großglockner is Grossglockner. It looks to me like they had technical difficulty printing the ß, and printed the closest "feasible" thing, being "ss". Is there a ß in the books you cited, for instance in names? Vienna, Milan, Venice and Cologne are English names, and they're clearly different from the originals. Grossglockner isn't, in my opinion. Markussep 18:35, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
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- This is what you get when you have foreigners and deluded native English speakers dictating to us what is good English spelling and what is bad spelling. The letter ß is not used in English, so the 'ss' is perfectly acceptable to use in its place. It's not that these print media can't print ß, because they can, it's just 'ss' is perfectly acceptable to use. You can always use the ß spelling as disambiguation in the articles first line, just not in the article title. I have never come across the letter ß in any reference books unless its an article about the letter itself. Mark 05:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
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- Please, let's avoid personal attacks such as "deluded" and stick to the matter at hand. --Stemonitis 06:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
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- Casual perusal of my refs doesn't show any others, but that doesn't clarify why they did or did not use ß. To someone unfamiliar with German, it sure looks a lot like a B, so I imagine many editors decide not to send visitors off looking for "Grobglockners" and "schlobs". :-) In the complete opposite direction, my Michelin guide to Germany uses ß everywhere, but of course the only German peak familiar to the English-speaking world is the Brocken. So perhaps the Michelin guide to Austria would say "Großglockner". In any case, let's get more citations - I'm pretty sure nobody arguing here is a world-class authority on the English language, so let's get more input from actual experts. Stan 16:38, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
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- ß is not English, that should be the end of it. Any argument about being "proper English" will result in things in TAMIL or CHINESE being the standard article name, and god only knows how most of us will type in ARABIC, or read an article where half the words are written in SANSKIT, because there are no proper English versions of them, if we follow that logic. 67.71.169.168 04:56, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
- http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9038193?query=Grossglockner&ct=
- NOTE: Enclyclopedia Britannica uses the Double-S *standard* English transliteration for ß.
- You will note standard English transliteratios for Ö -> OE , Œ -> OE , Æ -> AE ; even if the last two are technically English letters, and Œ usually becomes E, Æ usually becomes A. 67.71.169.168 05:01, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
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- There is a world of difference between something like Chinese or Tamil which uses an entirely different alphabet (or non-alphabetic writing system) and therefore needs to be transliterated, and something like German which uses fundamentally the same alphabet, with one or two minor additions. A non German speaker confronted with "Großglockner" will still have a good idea of how it's said, whereas a word like ऑस्ट्रिया cannot be read. It may not be the "standard" Latin alphabet (Latin also didn't use J, U or W), but it is basically the Latin alphabet nonetheless. Naturally, Chinese names should be transliterated or translated; the same rules do not necessarily apply to German, French, Icelandic and other languages that use characters not commonly present in English words. --Stemonitis 08:10, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
- ABCD EFG HIJK LMNOP QRS TUV WX Y and Z... now I've sung my ABCs, next time won't you sing with me... and tell me where ß belongs?
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- Not among the capital letters. See ß. --Stemonitis 09:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Decision
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 00:52, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
17 opinions expressed including the proposer who cast a vote in favour. 10 in support 7 against. 10/17 = 59%. One vote short of the 60% threshold. Oh and I missed the vote by "67.71.169.168", so 9/16 brings it down to 56% still one short. Philip Baird Shearer 01:18, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, this one was really close. Perhaps it was closed prematurely, though I haven't got enough experience with WP:RM to know what's normal. Do you want to reopen/extend the debate, Philip? Or should we concentrate on discussing the issue of ß in general? Or maybe I'll just go and do something crazy like actually write some articles :) - Haukur Þorgeirsson 12:50, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- See my talk page.Philip Baird Shearer 13:16, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Normal period is five days - this is way past that. If this continued it will probably still be divided as it is now. I suggest an attempt to work out a consensus first before refiling on WP:RM Ryan Norton T | @ | C 12:58, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- Sounds reasonable. Thank you. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 13:03, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks :) - and you're welcome :). Ryan Norton T | @ | C 13:17, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- I missed the vote on this, but FWIW I strongly support moving this to use "ss" spelling. This is the English-language Wikipedia and it is sufficient to provide a German-language gloss in the first sentence. older≠wiser 20:46, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Use of definite article
Some mountains take the definite article (ie the Matterhorn, the Weisshorn, the Obergabelhorn); some do not (Snowdon, Ben Nevis, Lyskamm). Großglockner is usually called 'the Großglockner'; to say 'I have climbed Großglockner' sounds as awkward as saying 'I have climbed Eiger', 'I have climbed Jungfrau' or 'I have climbed Matterhorn.' I have therefore reverted its designation to include 'the'. Ericoides 23:20, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
