Talk:Greeks Bearing Gifts (Torchwood)

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[edit] Harriet Jones

I doubt it would still be Harriet Jones that Jack was speaking to, so I am removing this assertion, post-The Christmas Invasion and the "Doesn't she look tired?" stuff Wolf of Fenric 23:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm still a newbie regarding making comments on this Torchwood site, but forgive me for pointing out that there's a comment on the Cyberwoman discussion page (at least that's where I think it is) regarding peoples' opinions versus currently-known facts. As far as is so far known, Jones is still Prime Minister, at least according to World War Three. Yes, both The Christmas Invasion and Love & Monsters show her Government having problems, but that she has lost her placement by Late 2007 is your opinion, and does not reflect currently-known facts. Having written all that, I do actually see your point...it's just (going by the afforementioned Cyberwoman thing), I have to point out a reason why the P.M. should (in inverted commas) be named Harriet Jones--Stripey1 13:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

If she isn't actually named as Prime Minister, we can't assume that she still is. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 14:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Sigh. With all due respect, the image MatthewFenton put up does not sum up the story better; it leaves out the biggest focus of the episode itself: Toshiko, and her relationship with Mary. That's why I replaced it. The original image just shows Mary and it's not even all that clear. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 15:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

"My" Mary is much more clearer then your image of a "Mary" and sums up the episode far better imo.. and also you mentioned that the Dr. Who project goes against the MoS with its own MoS you better not let Josiah her that as he "projects can't go against guidelines." - I'm pretty sure you where also saying it as well.. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 15:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Expanded:

"My" Mary is much more clearer then your image of a "Mary" and sums up the episode far better imo.. and also you mentioned that the Dr. Who project goes against the MoS with its own MoS you better not let Josiah her that as he "projects can't go against guidelines." - I'm pretty sure you where also saying it as well.. also this is the 3rd time you've done this over images on TW pages frankly it is getting annoying when you get all agitated because you didn't get to upload an image..thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 15:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not backing down on this one - I've already elaborated as to why the new screenshot describes the episode better. Describe your own reasons. Also, I did not mention that the Wikiproject goes against MOS - 350px doesn't go against any MoS that I am aware of... I would be grateful if you could point me towards that guideline, if any. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 15:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

"See WP:WHO - our MOS calls for 350px screenshots" - You dont have a MOS, project guidelines are "irrelvant" -- Don't back down then, I'm not backing down either. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 16:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not agitated because I didn't get to upload an image; I'm not satisfied because the screenshot isn't as good. Also, where does it say pictures can't be 350px or that Wikiproject guidelines are irrelevant? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 16:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Apparently [per Josiah & others] WikiProjects can't have guidelines (WP:TV-NC) either way I'm not bothered about size as "my" image is better and sums the article better, and as mine was first YOU must get a consensus as I _dispute_ the change (+ the quality on yours stinks..) - Also if your not agitated why do you kick up a fuss every time you don't get to do an image upload :-\? thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 16:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Show me where 350px conflicts with general MOS guidelines. And once again, I "kick up a fuss" as you put it when I find that the image isn't illustrative. However, I am not unreasonable - if other opinions feel that the other image is better, so be it - if consensus wants that, let that be. That's how it works. But not otherwise. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 16:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Show me the consensus for your MOS ;-) ? (I don;t care about image sizes anyway.. so forget it..) — You kick up a fuss when things are not how *you* like them (WP:OWN) - which is slightly irritating because in my opinion _your sucks_ - I'm not unreasonable either should a consensus say "khaos works is better" then I will accept it - as I sternly dispute your change as a gesture of good will you should self rv. and get a consensus. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 16:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you want to, go see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Doctor_Who/Archive_1#Screenshot_size where the discussion settled pretty much on 350px. As far as self-reverting is concerned, I respectfully decline in this instance, because I really don't like yours either. But I do invite others to chime in on this. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 16:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The discussion at WP:TV-NC wasn't arguing that wikiprojects can't have guidelines, merely that those guidelines can't contradict the overall wikipedia guidelines. --Milo H Minderbinder 16:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out, Milo. For the record: Matthew is completely misrepresenting my position above. I have never said that WikiProjects can't have guidelines, merely that if those guidelines come into conflict with universal Wikipedia guidelines, the latter should take precedence unless a reason for the exception, convincing to non-Project members, can be made. (I've even argued that the Doctor Who Wikiproject's recommendation of italics for episode/story names should be changed to comply with general Wikipedia guidelines.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Re. comment on my talk page. I restored the original image, and hope you can discuss your changes instead of edit warring. Thanks. --Majorly 18:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I have discussed my changes - I even gave specific reasons as to why I think it's a better illustration. Unfortunately, it's Matthew who hasn't given any reasons in reply except that he thinks the one I uploaded "sucks" and keeps reverting. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 18:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

You have not given a reason as to why yours should be within the article, mine sums the episode (the "Mary") yours just shows Tosh and Mary.. It's much like the faeries.. they sum the episode just like the Mary does, the only reason you have cited is that you believe yours is better (which I dispute..) - I dispute the change, I believe mine is better and summarizes the episode.. You must now get a *consensus* to implement a change. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 18:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

"the image MatthewFenton put up does not sum up the story better; it leaves out the biggest focus of the episode itself: Toshiko, and her relationship with Mary." That's my reason. Opinions, anyone else? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 18:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yours shows them.. You can't hope to recreate the story, or the science of the episode with a single frame.. that is why yours is not as good as mine. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 18:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

You still haven't given a reason why yours is better. Sure, no one picture can capture everything, but the question is which picture best illustrates it. At least mine attempts to bring in two of the important story elements. Yours is just one, and as I stated, it misses the point. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 18:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think Khaosworks' version (with both Tosh and "Mary") is preferable: Torchwood puts as much emphasis on the character interactions as on the aliens, if not more. I think an exclusive focus on the "monsters" reflects a misunderstanding of the show's nature. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

1. Mine shows one of the primary focal points of the episode (the "Mary") in true form.
2. Mine passes the FUC (*hint*)
3. Mine is of a better quality.
4. My versions DOG is also less noticeable.
5. Mine dos not attempt to summarise plot points in one frame a single image could not do.

Just 5 of probably a thousand reasons. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 19:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

To answer the points in turn:

1. Mine shows two. Mary and Tosh. As explained, Tosh is also as important a part of the episode.
2. What FUC are you talking about? If it's a matter of size, this is a technical issue than can be easily fixed.
3. Better quality by what criteria? FU requires it to be a lower-resolution pic anyway.
4. DOG is also a technical (and minor) issue. If it really bothers you, I can digitally remove it, as I've done for several other screencaps.
5. Again, the question is not trying to summarise the entirety of the plot. It's what illustrates it better. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 19:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict with Khaosworks) I had a similar response typed out, but Khaosworks' was better and more thorough. Suffice it to say that I don't see how attempting to cover more of the episode's thematic material is a disadvantage, as Matthew seems to be implying. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know much about the technical guidelines for pictures, but of the two, I'd go with Khaosworks' - it illustrates the story better, and I think a picture with Tosh is better than one without. That said, I think a picture without Mary's true form would be preferable, as it's a bit of a spoiler (I know there's a warning, but you really can't help seeing the picture). --Brian Olsen 22:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't like either of them. Sorry! — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 23:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

That's fair enough, but any specific reason/any suggestions? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 00:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I feel a bit odd making suggestions as I don't have the tech capability to make screen grabs myself, but...is there a good shot of Mary giving Tosh the pendant, or maybe a reaction shot of Tosh wearing the pendant and hearing thoughts? In any case, the pendant/telepathy seems more crucial to the story to me than the alien. --Brian Olsen 01:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay well as Khaos' is the prefered version I've reverted back to him, this does not mean my opinions do not still stand, in the spirit of good faith (and primiarily because it was a self rv.) and the spirit of WP:3RR it is not a violation. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 11:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The big, bad wolf and Squids

I wrote that Tosh says, "I can't forget the things I've seen. The things I've heard", but someone removed it. In a move away from that, did anyone notice Jack's mention of squids? Could we relate that to The Power of Kroll?--Stripey1 13:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)