Talk:Greeks

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[edit] Greeks

The very opening of the article is lacking objectivity. "are a nation and ethnic group, who have populated Greece from the 17th century BC until the present day."

There is no actual evidence that Ionian landmass was populated by tribes specifically named Greek as early as 17th century BCE. This name refers to Biothian migrants to the Apennine peninsular.

Further if the name is applied to all populations using related language, then it can not refer to them as either a 'nation' or an 'ethnic group'. Greece was not a nation until 19th century CE, and can be at best referred to in its ancient history as a confederation, often of city-states, or tribal group.

The Ionian landmass was not known as Greece throughout its history, so it can not be said that there was a continuity of population of what is a current political entity. It also fails to attest of other areas populated by users of Ionian language outside of what is now Greece.

The immediate next part of the article conveniently ignores six centuries of history! "Until the early 20th century, Greeks were uniformly distributed between the Greek peninsula, the western coast of Asia Minor, Pontus and Constantinople, regions which coincided to a very large extent with the borders of the Byzantine Empire of the late 11th century and the areas of Greek colonization in the ancient world." What does uniform distribution of population mean in demographic terms?! What about Southern part of the Apennine Peninsula? The Byzantine Empire was not solely composed of Greek speakers as it is implied. From the disintegration of the Byzantine Empire to disintegration of the Ottoman Empire that replaced it, the Greek speakers were a part of a larger entity. It seems this was an influential and significant part of history of the Modern Greek nation, and needs to be included in the article if only from objectivity point of view. Lastly, Greeks did not colonize the ancient world. Various tribes who shared similar language settled in different parts of the Eastern Mediterranean, and predominantly in the Ionian region. Because of this fact, their view of the ancient world was a very limited one, confined to immediate surroundings. The phrasing should be that tribal colonization took place in the Eastern Mediterranean to avoid Greek-centrism. --Mrg3105 09:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pontian Greeks

Look, I don't want to dig this issue more than it should be done, but the links to the claim that 350000 Pontian Greeks were killed DON'T WORK.. Pls note...

This is a very serious claim to make, and unless someone can back this up, I will add 'according to unverifiable sources, it has been alleged that...' Baristarim 14:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

See [1] and open the PDF. It says that from 1916 to 1923, about 350,000 Pontians disappeared through massacres, persecution and death marches. --Telex 14:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

That's the problem, I couldn't open the PDF version, so I am reading the text version... Let me have a look... Baristarim 00:21, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

How about this? [2]. does it work now? If not, let me know, and i will copy paste the text here or in your talk page (where u prefer). --Hectorian 00:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

That is a document submitted to the UN by some NGO. It would be better if we could get a solid scholarly reference instead. Unfortunately, a quick check at Google Scholar for "Pontian Greek genocide" finds nothing; "Pontian genocide" finds only an incidental mention of the commemoration day. Surely we can do better? --Macrakis 16:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Distribution of Greeks

The article currently says:

Until the early 20th century, Greeks were uniformly distributed between the Greek peninsula, the western coast of Asia Minor, Pontus and Constantinople, regions which coincided to a very large extent with the borders of the Byzantine Empire of the 11th century and the areas of Greek colonization in the ancient world.

This description excludes the large populations of Greeks in Crete, Cyprus, the Aegean and Ionian islands, and Alexandria. On the other hand, the "areas of Greek colonization in the ancient world" also included most of Sicily (and depending on your definitions also southern Italy and southern Gaul) and the "borders of the Byzantine Empire of the 11th century" (which varied quite a lot, by the way) included much of modern Romania, Bulgaria, and (former) Yugoslavia. Though there were Greeks there in the early 20th century, they were much sparser than in the core areas. I am not sure how to write this so that it doesn't get bogged down in details. Thoughts? --Macrakis 16:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Correct note indeed, but besides the point of the paragraph. The following sentence may clarify the 'need' for those particular areas to be mentioned:

In the aftermath of the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) in 1923, a large-scale population exchange between Greece and Turkey transferred and confined ethnic Greeks almost entirely into the borders of the modern Greek state, that is, in areas where groups of Greek-speaking Indo-Europeans first established themselves about 1500 BC.

Unless anyone feels strongly about removing the whole thing, I propose the following wording for the first part:

Until the early 20th century, Greeks were uniformly distributed between the Greek peninsula, the western coast of Asia Minor, Pontus and Constantinople, regions which among others coincided to the larger part of the frequently shifting borders of the Byzantine Empire of the 11th century and to most of the areas of Greek colonization in the ancient world.

I am not very happy with the English, but this should solve your concerns. Any other proposal? Any improvement on my text? •NikoSilver• 20:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, there ist the classic figure of a Greek "Yiayia" posing on a Wikipedia page, as it does in tourist shops accross Greece. Is this really the type of picture we are promoting and showing as the face of a typical Greek ? The least you can do is post the picture of some younger, more typical (and not stereotypical) Greeks, male and female. Ante geia !

100% agree with the anon! Plus the caption is kinda macabre...•NikoSilver• 23:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

"confined ethnic Greeks almost entirely into the borders of the modern Greek state, that is, in areas where groups of Greek-speaking Indo-Europeans first established themselves about 1500 BC." This requires sources and clarification. Firstly there is considerable scientific ambiguity about earliest arrival of 'Greek' speakers in the Eastern Mediterranean. Arrival prior to 13th century is a minority view based on extrapolation rahter then archeology. However when the 'Greek' speakers did arrive in the area, they most certainly did not FIRST establish themselves in the confines of the current borders of the modern Greek nation. They FIRST established themselves at the point where they encountered least resistance to settlement. --Mrg3105 10:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Results 1 - 10 of about 12,900,000 for Greeks 
Results 1 - 10 of about 316,000 for "Greek people"

Results 1 - 20 of about 110,000 English pages for "czech people"
Results 1 - 20 of about 2,040,000 English pages for "czechs".
Results 1 - 20 of about 190,000 English pages for "swedish people".
Results 1 - 20 of about 3,070,000 English pages for swedes

[edit] I know this doesn't matter but

How genetically related are modern Greeks to ancient Greeks?

Well, there is no definite answer to a percentage of "genetic Greekness". There are, however, emphatically discredited studies for the exact lack of this genetic Greekness (see Fallmerayer, and Arnaiz-Villena). Any answer on that matter would be original research for now. However, we can safely assume that this genetic relationship is much closer to any of the non-neighbouring (or even neighbouring) peoples. •NikoSilver• 10:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The genetic relation of modern Greeks, and the people we refer to as ancient Greeks, if such a relationship exists, is impossible to prove either way. Personally, I find it immaterial, and see modern Greece's connection to ancient Greece in terms of the same language (confirmed by Britannica) and certain cultural elements. Interestingly, elements of ancient Greek paganism can be found in modern Greek folklore, most notable, the tendency to refer to the Christian concept of Hell as Hades. Of course, sceptics would attribute that to an artificial "grecianization" - some (mostly FYROM nationalistic) claim that the Greek language became extinct at some point and than modern Greek was revived and imposed on the population of modern Greece (who were originally a mixture of Vlachs, Slavs, Albanians etc). Such questions are loaded with political implications, but we can rest assured that the Greek language never became extinct (Britannica again - as if I need to cite a source).--Tekleni 11:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

It is a fact that the Greeks since ancient times were always in the majority in the Greek peninsula, that the area was never deserted and that no other population group (conquers or settlers) ever outnumbered them. so, any such theory is just unhistoric and politically motivated... Hectorian 13:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, we know that ancient Greeks were an indo-european people and should fall under one of the haplogroups that would have been prevelant among the inhabitants of europe at the time...which probably excludes E and J from middle easterners. There are many studies that you can look at that show the Y chromosome and mitochondial diversity in europe, this being one > http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf. That's how I come up with my personal conclusion of, they are sorta related with significant Turkish or Arab influence on the gene pool. I'm still struggling to understand how that happened if it did though because of the language, culture, and religious barriers...plus the Greeks and Turks have generally hate each other even today. - Clown

[edit] Image

The article is about Greeks as nation or ethnic group. Pericles and Alexander didn't belong to this nation or group. They were "ancient Greek" and "ancient Macedonian". These categories have nothing in common with late medieval or modern Greeks or Macedonians. It would be reasoanble to change the image for a new one with portraits of ethnic Greeks. --Alex Kov 07:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for reverting you before waiting for an explanation here. But I do think this is just bizarre. As the article states, Greeks "are a nation and ethnic group, who have populated Greece from the 17th century BC until the present day." You might disagree with some of the wording, but I think it correctly reflects the consensus both in scholarship and in general perception that there is something fundamentally continuous about this group through the ages. Even if you were to argue that modern Greeks and ancient Greeks have significantly different identities, this article has chosen to treat them all together. Pericles not a "Greek"? Come on... Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Pericles is "Ancient Greek" but not the ethnic Greek. Personaly I dont like the image of Alexander to be in the row of Greeks. He was "ancient Macedonian". Probably you know that articles like this are about "ethnic groups". Thus no need to insert Pericles and Alexander into this Ethnic group. Its like putting Ceaser, Joan of Arc, John Paul II into the article "European ethnic group". Its ridiculous. Ancient Greece was not an ethnical or national body but socio-cultural. So please, create article "Ancient Greeks" as ethnic group and insert images of Per and Alex there. But in this article they are inappropriate.--Alex Kov 07:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

You'd have to do a massive rewrite of the whole set of Greek-related articles if you wanted to split up coverage in this way. Read this article, it covers both ancient and modern Greeks. You could try to split it up along the lines you say, but I think you wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell to garner consensus for that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

See my reply here.--Tekleni 08:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

What the f**k are you saying??? Of course Pericles was an ethnic Greek like Joan of Arc was French. The ancient Greece was a nation, not a "socio-cultural body". There were different cities, but it was a nation. You mean that Alexander and Pericles weren't Greeks???? Ancient Macedonians were ancient Greeks (like ancient Athenians were ancient Greeks), and ancient Greeks were Greeks. You donn't have to be a genious to understand that ancient Greeks were Greeks! It's obvious. Mitsos 09:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Nation is a construct of the past 200 years. Ethnic group is not - if we knew of a Greek speaking Neanderthal (anachronism) and had a PD picture of him, we could use that.--Tekleni 10:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Alex you have a personal point of view which does not agree with neither the consensus of scholars nor the perception of people today. In my opinion you have a personal agenda on the subject, for example you can't accept that the world regards "Macedonian" and "ancient Macedonian" as two completely different ethnic and cultural identities, therefore you think that the same should be done with Greeks. Read WP:NPOV, WP:CITE and WP:NOR to find out why this is not possible. Miskin 11:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Miskin you misunderstood me. Franks and French are not the same, Romans and Italians too. Romanians are not Romans and Russians have very slight relation to Kievan Rus. German Angls and Saxons werent part of German nation of the 19-20 centuries. My point is that its too risky to see the nations or ethnic groups of the present in the societies and states of the past. My point of view is not just personal. You should read some books of Smith or Anderson on the Nationalism and the origins of the ethnic groups. Ancient Greece was a multyethnic entity and shouldnt be monopolized by nowadays Greeks. I asume that majority of modern Greeks has direct relation to the peoples of Ancient Greece, but not all of that peoples were Greeks in modern sence of this word. Therefore Macedonians or Thracians of the Ancient world culturaly belonged to "Greece" but they werent "ethnic Greeks" in those days nor can be seen as one today. --Alex Kov 16:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the ancient Macedonians and Thracians were ancient Greeks. They spoke Greek. Ancient Greeks were an ethnic group, right? You are saying that Greeks and ancient Greeks are different ethnic groups. That's wrong. The Franks were not French, but the people who lived in France during the period of Joan of Arc, were French. My point is: The people who lived in Greece 5000 years ago were not Greeks (they were Pelasgians, I think), but the people who lived in Greece 3000 years ago, like Pericles, were Greeks. Modern Greek are very similar to ancient Greek, while French has nothing to do with Frankish. The Greeks are one nation (or ethnic group, if you prefer) with a history that goes back 4000 ago. Mitsos 08:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

So you're suggesting to start our struggle against "Greek monopoly" by removing the photos of Pericles and Alexander from this article, and you expect us to believe that this is not your personal view? What is it then, the view of some sort of anti-Greek-monopoly cult organisation? Well guess what, Greeks do not also monopolise ancient Greece but also the Byzantine Empire. Except Macedonia, none of Greek history was ever claimed by anyone else, so I don't know what you mean by 'monopoly'. But how come you're not concerned by, for instance, Turkey's claims on the history of all Turkic peoples? Is it maybe because nobody gives a toss about the history of Turks? How come there aren't any scholars writing essays on how the Turks and Armenians of today would compare to the Turks and Armenians of the old? Yet there's people like you who do care to question and compare the continuity of Greeks. This has nothing to do with neutrality and scholarship, this has to do with the utility of ancient Greece and its impact on Western civilisations. Despite what you say, there is a majority of neutral and credible historians who treat Greek history as a sole, continuous entity, which is of course sub-divided to different civilisations/cultures [3]. Miskin 10:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

BRAVO! So true! The english have always been against greece and so have the nords.

Alex: trying to get Greeks to understand Ancient Greece is like trying to explain to a monkey why it is not a human. You are wasting your time, basically. --62.103.147.55 23:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment. I always thought we were below 'monkey'. •NikoSilver• 00:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not know whather monkeys are above or below humans, nor do I know where Greeks fit into that. What is clear is that monkeys and humans are significantly different, although with commmon roots. Similarly, modern Greeks are not ancient Greeks and it is nothing other than political propaganda to pretend otherwise. The leading writers of the last 50 years have called that nationalism -- as mentioned above, Ernest Gellner and Benedict Anderson. There are also numerous Greek academics who concur: only idiots with basic school level education argue about these things. --62.103.147.55 23:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grek name

There must be an article, or information in this article about "Grek" name and why it was stopped being used. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Utku a (talk • contribs) 05:08, 16 November 2006.

I've never heard of it, but why isn't that covered under the GR (Graekoi) root? •NikoSilver• 14:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greeks and other ethnic groups in Wikipedia

A lot of discussion is goining on about putting ancient and modern Greeks into the same article. Well, it's no better at the Egyptians' corner. They are presented as one continuous, homogenous nation, with pictures of ancient priests and Naguib Mahfouz (among others) as their representatives. Same with the Berbers. I think that, since the people living in Greece at the present are called Greeks, it is enough to have the article titled "Greeks" and sunsequently differentiate between ancient Greeks, Byzantine Greeks, Greeks under Ottoman and Venetian rule, Greeks after the founding of the modern Greek state, as it's done now. It's perfectly misleading. Or we could split all these groups in to little articles and then add a disambiguation page. Someone mentioned monkeys. I suppose that in an article titled "Primates" one can put, or mention both humans and apes. So, as long as there is a clear distinction between ancient and modern Greeks within the article, this shouldn't be a problem. There is also an article on the Greek language as a whole, mabe we should delete that too ?

U forgot to suggest other articles for deletion or split as well, e.g. Greek Orthodox, Greece, Greek dialects, Greek philosophy, Greek literature,... U know, all those related to those Greeks... Hectorian 11:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Nobody has said that nationalism (and its spurious claims of ethnic continuity over millenia) is specific to Greeks. This does not make its presence in an encylopedia article acceptable, however. What is needed here is a clear recognition that the concept of Greekness in ancient times was not that of the twentieth century. Ancient Greeks co-existed (as did Byzantine and Ottoman Greeks) with many other ethnic groups, in complex societies. Ancient Greeks belonged to a multiplicity of groups, including village,occupational groups, a local community like the city-state or polis, and also the ethnos. These often conflicted, and the ethnos did not take priority. In marked contrast, modern Greekness is predicated upon a fictional ethnos, which is ideologically bloodline but in reality is equally based on religion, had little to do with language in the 19th century [which is bizarre for any ethnos], and became a nationalistic driving force with the fated Megali Idea. Other forms of social identity, which had existed in ancient times and also continued throughout the Ottoman period, were destroyed in the process of creating the modern Greek nation state. This nationalism is central, both as a characteristic of modern Greek identity and also as a defining difference with ancient Greeks.--62.103.147.55 20:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC) By the way, I object very strongly to most of the content of the first two paragraphs of the page, which are misleading and even incorrect. The "facts" included there are contradicted by all serious Greek scholarship on the ethnic composition of 19th C Greece,the events around the exchange of populations etc. and the assimilation of the residents on Greek territory into one homogeneous "ethnic group". Religion mattered more than language, and this situation prevails even today to some extent [although is beginning to disappear].

[edit] Fake population figures

NikoSilver: if you want to give a figure for the Greek population, there has to be a reference. Nationalism should not extend to faking the figures, even though Greece has a long history of doing so.I have put a link for the total estimated population, from which you need to remove at least 700,000 non-Greeks. This comes to about 10m Greeks in Greece for 2005.

Look at the census and the population figures. Greece has many immigrants, but they are not included in the census. so, there is no "fake figures". maybe u are faking the population figures... If u want, place the population number of all Greece at 12+ million (which is the reality) and say that 700,000-1 million are foreign immigrants. but do not remove 1 million from the number of the Greeks in Greece. Hectorian 17:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, the Census says that the total population of Greece was 11 million in 2001, of which 762,000 were not greeks. Who told you that there are no immigrants in the Census??? This is laughable. Kindly correct the figure, which is basically 10,3m Greeks in 2001, with zero population growth since... so is more like 10,2 for 2006....

It is not about a supposed 2006 census, but about a 2006 estimation. as for the number of the immigrants in Greece and those with a greek citizanship counted in the census, better read how many 'homogeneis' from albania and the former USSR came here. i suppose u would not include them in the non-Greeks... Hectorian 19:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The only correct data are from a Census, as the estimation is exactly that. The link I gave was to an estimation, and you removed it. Where is a proper link or reference to your figure? And the figure for allogeneis in 2001 is 762,000: homogeneis are additional to that. In other words, your figure is wrong. Please correct the false figure that you have inserted on the page.--62.103.147.55 00:19, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry kids, but no one in their right minds can claim that 100% of the population of Greece are Greeks. I added The World Factbook's estimate of 98% of the total population based on a July 2006 estimate. You're welcome :-) --Euthymios 00:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, Euthymio, it is a little better than the previous nonsense. But the total population estimates of Greece for 2006 are all widely varying, quite simply because Greeks as an ethnic group have negative population growth. Any population growth since 2001 is ENTIRELY due to immigration, and since the greek state has no idea how many [if any] of those immigrants since 2001 might be homogeneis, the whole thing is ridiculous. YOu have to use the census data, or some other actual count instead of foolish estimates.

Hearing such silly things makes me wonder if you even know what the Greek immigration law is like. The only foolish thing I see here is your 2-euro chauvinism. Get a username, make some real contributions to wikipedia, and come back to deal with the (+-)0.3% accuracy of population figures later. Miskin 02:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhpas Mr Miskin you would care to explain to the world what is incorrect with the statements made above? I suggest you read some population data, including the large number of publications with my name on them. I also suggest that you follow the Wikipedia rules and provide proper references to everything put on the page, instead of the school-level "common sense" that seems to prevail on the Greek pages.

Anon, even the source you are citing says Greece is 98% Greek [4].--Euthymios 18:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

You are right, Euthymio. The quality of data online for Greek population is terrible. I suggest either the UN POpulation Division data for 2005, which are reasonable estimates, or more correctly the 2001 Census. The accuracy of data on Greek population is not +/- 0.3% as claimed by Miskin, but more like +/-8%. This is clearly a serious problem. The figure of 98% of Greece as orthodox Greek is a piece of nonsense from 20 years ago, calculated from taftotita applications. Effectively, it is meaningless (as indeed it was 20 years ago) and simply reflects the political propaganda of the Greek state, which claims that the only minority is the Thraki minority.

Listen, I don't believe that Greece is 98% Greek. I remember reading somewhere something about official statistics finding that 10% of the population of Greece do not hold Greek citizenship (i.e. are immigrants). Perhaps the 98% figure pertains to the remaining 90% which would be something like 88.2% of the total population. I think all this speculation qualifies as original research though. What is interesting is the question of "what are the Roma (Gypsies/Τσιγγάνοι)?" According to the Greek government again, they number about 200,000 - are they included in the ethnic Greeks figure? According to official statistics again (1991 census), the Thrace minority is 0.98% of the total population at that time (about 28.8% of the total population of Thace at that time). I think we should just stick with The World Factbook's estimate and avoid all the speculation.--Euthymios 23:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

About 7% in the census are not Greeks or homogeneis, and about 8.5% in other data [link posted to your page]. It might be at 10% total with illegal immigrants, but nobody knows...THe Roma are counted as Greeks, and in fact they themselves insist on it. I do not know of any official data on the number of Roma, but perhaps there are some government estimates. So the 2% is only Greek Muslims [not only in Thraki, actually]. There are no official data on the number of Muslims, other than the 1951 Census. But I really advise, for most countries, against using the CIA factbook: it is full of serious mistakes.--62.103.147.55 01:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

See the article on the Muslim minority of Greece - the source cited is the Greek Ministry for Foreign Affairs and they speak of a figure from a 1991 census (the same figure I mention above). The size of the Muslims of Thrace still there seems to have decreased since the mass revocations of citizenship (of Greek citizens abroad).--Euthymios 01:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)