Talk:Greek fire
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[edit] Attribution
Moving attribution from article to talk:
- One other incendiary substance, perhaps that "secret ingredient," may have been magnesium, which will burn under water, and is a principle constituent in incendiary bombs of modern warfare. [courtesy Suzanne Turgeon, Clark County Museum, Henderson, NV]
- I always thought there was phosphorus in it. Chameleon 00:40, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Greek Fire
The speculation of whether Greek Fire contained a "secret ingredient" of either sodium, phosphorus or magnesium leaves one wondering. Scientifically, the base chemical compound (liquid) would have to be homogenous to flow smoothly through the delivery system to the nozzle.
Magnesium has a melting point of 992°K = 648.85°F or 1199°C. This would require a closed vessel at high temperatures and equally high pressures. Since Bitumen boils at approximately 350°F the likelihood of an explosion in a closed vessel due to a high-pressure increase would preclude this. Sodium has a melting point of 371°K = 208.13°F or 97.85°C and Phosphorus a melting point of 317°K = 110.93°F or 43.85°C. The likelihood of either of these elements being the one that would not go out when subjected to water is more likely. Sodium/water chemical reaction: 2 Na + 2 H2O > 2 NaOH + H2 producing a bright red flame
Phosphorus/Damp Air at room temperature reaction: P4(s) + 5O2(g) P4O10(s) Reaction of Phosphorus Pentoxide in water leaves an acidic residue following a highly exothermic reaction and water vapor. P4O10 --+2H2O--->H4P4O12---+2H2O--->2 H4P2O7---+2H20--->4 H3PO4
Phosphorus Pentoxide is used as a dehydrator due to the water evaporating property.
Given that the low boiling point of the Sodium and the red flame, it is more highly probable that sodium was the additive.
[edit] Magnesium
This was removed from the article because magnesium was supposedly unknown to the Byzantines:
- "One other incendiary substance, perhaps that secret ingredient may have been magnesium, which will burn under water, and is a principal constituent in incendiary bombs of modern warfare."
Our magnesium article says pure magnesium is produced using electrolysis, but surely some form of magnesium was known in the middle ages. Does it not come from Magnesia, which is an extremely ancient site? Adam Bishop 18:19, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- There is a big difference between pure magnesium and some form of magneisum. From the magnesium article: "It is an alkaline earth metal and therefore does not occur uncombined with other elements." The more reactive an element is, the less likely you are to find it pure in nature. Conversely, the natural compounds that such an element can be found in are often the most stable, because the reaction energy released when the element bonds has to basically be reversed in order to break that stable bond (sodium and chlorine, for example). So, magneisum oxide, magnesium chloride, or other natural magnesium bearing minerals and compounds, are not very reactive. Anywho, it is highly unlikely that there was a known process for isolating pure magneisum at that time. Even now, it is not easy to process, and yet it is so common we get most of it from sea water via electrolysis.... Of course, we used to think that the secret to melting and working platinum was unknown to man prior to the oxygen fed flame, except certain South American Indian tribes had been doing it for possibly thousands of years. So, anything is possible. Splarka 03:55, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] The Chinese
A recent addition says that Song China got the recipe from the Greeks. How? I thought that the recipe was a close secret. And if it went from Byzantium to China, it should have been known by the Arabs. And there would be some recipe in the Chinese archives. --Error 02:24, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, that seems dubious...I've removed it for now.
I've also de-linked Kallinikos, and that article now redirects here. I don't think there is anything more to say about him that is not already in this article. Adam Bishop 08:45, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] breakdown parts
can we break these down to categories such as History, Uses, Secrecy, Modern Day Comparisons, etc.? And can the final paragraph be separated into a "see also" section? also, shouldn't the F of fire be capitalized, as it is a proper noun? or is this a naming convention of wikipedia that i have to learn about?--mysekurity 04:40, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Russians
In order to avoid misunderstandings, I corrected Russian into Varangian. Luckily the Byzantine Emperor described the language of these Rus so we know that they were Scandinavians.--Wiglaf 28 June 2005 21:20 (UTC)
[edit] Modern?
The article lists "Υγρό Πυρ" as the _Modern_ Greek name for this weapon. While this name may persist in the modern language, as a frozen term, it is quite obviously _ancient_, in both vocabulary and declension. Perhaps we can avoid drawing attention to the modern/ancient desitinction for this term, and just call it "Greek"? Jamie 06:11, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
- This name is not a frozen term in the modern Greek language, it is the name used in Greek, both ancient and modern. You are right that it should not be divided. Besides the modern Greek language is the evolution of the ancient Greek --> Hellenistic Greek --> Byzantine Greek --> modern Greek! Petros The Hellene 17:21, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Possible to create greek fire nowadays?
Although it seems to me that the article hints at it, I'm not entirely sure on this. Is it possible to create a substance that is more or less the same as the ancient greek fire (that can't be put out by water)? Flea110 05:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think so. I believe napalm is similar, and that they can reproduce very similar materials, they just don't know of what exactly Greek Fire was made, but I really don't know. Might be interesting to mention in the article. --Mathwizard1232 03:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Napalm bombs
What is the possible difference ? are they alike? is greek fire an early form of naplam ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.130.67.106 (talk • contribs) .
- According to the article, no one knows what exactly it was made of. So if you want to say it's like napalm, you probably could, as speculation. But there is no factual evidence for it. -- Stbalbach 02:16, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
- The issue isn't just finding something that acts like Greek Fire, but something that acts like it and could have been made in 650AD. Ultimately, it must have been a master feat of chemistry. - Kuzain 01:14, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Greek Fire Today
Watching the movie Timeline was the first time I've heard of Greek Fire up until now. Based on what is written here about the creation, means of communication, and effects, I think the movie did a very good job depicting what Greek Fire might actually have looked like. The movie's pretty brainy for trying to be a Richard Donner film, which is why it flopped, but on the whole, it does a great job of explaining the nature of Greek Fire without a whole lot of expo. I'm going to read the book by Michael Crichton soon, and I'll update my entry with the details it gives me. Please don't edit out my entry again, Mr. Knowsbest. The nature of this encyclopedia is not to weed out what is and is not relevant, but to compile knowledge about things, both important and trivial. Perhaps some student might use the clips from the movie for a report on Greek Fire in school. P.S. I also added to the Timeline(movie) page about Greek Fire, to complete the circle. Adioonesix 16:50, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Payload
From the article: "six to eight pounds— up to eighteen kg". 6-8 lb is only about 2.7-3.6 kg. Someone appears to have multiplied by 2.2 to get to kg, rather than divided by it. Perhaps someone who knows what the capability of the onager was can make the correction. BillC 00:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Kallinikos
| Greek fire is said to have been invented by a Syrian Christian refugee named Kallinikos (Callinicus) of Heliopolis (Syria), probably about 673. |
Partington (1999:12-13) contains a discussion of how Theophanes' date of AM (annus mundi) 6165 for the beginning of the siege of Constantinople has been converted by various interpreters to dates ranging from 665 to 674. Also, according to Partington (1999:13), "it is more than likely that [Kallinikos] was a Jew," which Jack Kelly concurs with in Gunpowder (2004:22), so unless we can get a another cite that Kallinikos was Christian, I'm going to remove the reference to his religious identity.--JFD 18:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- He was an Assyrian and all Assyrian are christions.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.166.133.88 (talk • contribs) .
[edit] Used by Mamelukes?
De Joinville's chronicle (sourced in the article as well as Seventh Crusade) implies that the Crusaders came under attack by Greek fire while fighting Turks (presumably Mamelukes) in Egypt. Does this mean that Turks/Arabs as well as Greeks had access to Greek fire at this time, or that De Joinville is mistaken when he describes the attack as Greek fire? I can imagine a chronicler using the words "Turks" and "Arabs" interchangeably, but I doubt he was fighting Greeks. Willhsmit 16:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Robin Hood
Another mention of Greek Fire on the TV occured in the Dec 2nd 2006 screening of BBC's Robin Hood remake series. Very confusing as the plotline involved making gunpowder or 'Black Powder' and yet they refer to Greek Fire - without actually explaining anything let alone showing some in action. This programme just keeps getting worse, the dialog is bad enough (this one included the cliche "It's showtime!") but this chrononlogical and technological inexactitude is inexcusable.
BTW does this page mention use of GF in Ridley Scott's movie about the Crusades 'Kingdom of Heaven' which I think has GF in it or something like it?
Royzee 23:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Phosphorus?
How could Greek fire possibly have been made of phosphorus and saltpeter, when phosphorus was not discovered and isolated until the 17th century? I think that we should strike that from the list. Andrew Levine 09:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
- Well, since the ingredients of greek fire remain a mystery, no one knows what they had discovered. Maybe they discovered phosphorus (unlikely). It qualifies by saying "speculations". The problem is the speculations are un-sourced, so the reader can't get more details on these speculations. -- Stbalbach 15:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
