Talk:Greco-Turkish relations

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Archive: 1, 2, 3 ---

Contents 1 On the immigrants thrown overboard 2 Map locator 3 WWII 4 Nail Erdogan

[edit] On the immigrants thrown overboard

I am rephrasing the last part to fit into the title definition of Greco-Turkish relations, whose main pertinent element here is the existence of an agreement since 2002.

I will also reduce the pornographic material on İzmir and else. Cretanforever

I re-added the info from BBC-do not remove it again. btw, 80%-20% of Cypriot population was not necessary to be removed. and also, since the treaty of Lausanne is quoted enough and since is the treaty that established modern Turkey, and also the treaty that is still considered valid between the two countries, maybe we should have 2 seperate sections about that treaty: one concerning Turkey and another for Greece. Hectorian 14:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed the percentages because they would have led to too much intricacy within this article. If you have a source (for the fifties, because that's the context of the phrase in question) on 80%-20% we can add it as a footnote. But then, nothing stops anyone on bringing forth, as a manner of speech, 1800s statistics, 1900s statistics, 1917 statistics etc. The main article is Cyprus question anyway. I hate discussing numbers since the days of the Battle of Malazgirt, although I notice that these numbers keep shifting significantly westwards:) I prefer discussing legally framed contexts. Add them if you want to, but I think, for the purposes of your argument, percentages dated 19 July 1974 would be wiser:)

For the 2001 incident, and for the mine casualties since 1996, my point was once again, contextual and legal. The article is about Greco-Turkish relations, and the subheading is on immigration issues. An agreement was signed in 2002 covering the question. Anything that occurred before the agreement happened in a context of status quo ante. If you can tie -for example- the 2001 incident to the agreement, for example point out that it had a significant effect on its signing, I can understand the point on its inclusion. Otherwise I would say that we should have an article titled, Incidents along the Greco-Turkish border. I am only making my point, but I won't be pushy about it. Regards. Cretanforever

OK about the numbers concerning Cyprus. your current rewordings is fair enough:). as for the illegal immigration cases, if we are about to add the recent incident (about which i am aware from tv, though i have not watched the videos that the turkish media claim to have), we can also add other incidents as well. maybe the agreement signed in 2002 adresses the issue in its current 'legal status', however, such incidents did not begin to happen after 2002... the issue is much much older... As for the filming, it would be better to have english sources, or at least non-turkish sources (i can also quote ERT or MEGA Channel, but this would not be NPOV, will it?). that's why i used BBC. and btw, the source by ADNKI, does not say it is a fact. it says: It showed what appeared to be Greek coast guards. so, it is rather careful in believing it. as for the turkish sources, i can't read them, so i can't say:). Regards Hectorian 15:56, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I added the part on the recent incident the day it happened. The only available sources were-understandably- Turkish. As it is better unfolded now, I will revise with a clear head later today and give weight to sources in English. In the meantime, I will make a move on Chios. If you disagree, please just revert. I will also edit a little (not much) later today, again on Chios. Nothing political, just a few interesting points in line with SS Kurtuluş and İbrahim Edhem Pasha.Regards. Cretanforever

I don't know exactly what you have been argueing about, but if it is greek sources on refugees/immigrants thrown overboard near Chios, maybe this athens.indymedia.org thread can provide some sources in Greek (from Eleftherotypia and the local press). I hope I helped. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 22:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

No, i think there is no arguing here:). everyone knows that the incident happened, so noones disputes it. some background info and some more sources in english would be important. but thanks anyway. Hectorian 22:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map locator

Why doesn't the map locator on the top of the page work? Anyone know how to fix it? I will also need it for other foreign relations articles as well.. Baristarim 00:56, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

We just need to create the image for it. The template assumes that there is a map at Image:Greece Turkey Locator.png. Fut.Perf. ☼ 04:56, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that's more like it. Politis 13:24, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Politis - ?? Why did you think that i was hijacking the article?? I didnt say that you couldnt put the corresponding greek template.. Why all the animosity? I mean, why do you suppose that just because I added that I was trying to hijack the article?? It wouldn't be hijacking since that article considers both turkey and greece; have a look at all other relations articles and u will see the foreign relations templates of corresponding countries.. Gees, please take a deep breath - we should be all trying to improve all the articles, not fighting over who owns what.. You were more than welcome to add the corresponding greek template, I just couldn't find a foreign relations of greece template.. Seriously, what u said in your edit summary was not cool dude.. what u did bordered on vandalism since u deleted a completely legitimate template whereas what you should have been doing was to add the corresponding greek tag.. Baristarim 15:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WWII

In 1940 Greece was not occupied by Germans.Greeks has defeated the Italians in Albbania!Greece was occupied by Germans in April 1941!So Turks had not help Greeks during the famine in Athens during German occupation!Also Turkey was neatral during WWII,how many dead Turks were during WWII.Stop propaganda inside wikipedia! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nlkrio (talk • contribs).

Hi Nlkrio, welcome to wikipedia. Please remember to sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~). Regaring the issue you address, you were right about the date thing, I corrected it. Apart from the date however you seem to be misinformed. Turkey was indeed the first to send humanitarian aid during the great famine, at the winter of 1941. See SS Kurtuluş for more. And please avoid accusing fellow wikipedians of "propaganda": there is no cabal. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 14:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nail Erdogan

Hi all. This is my first post, so I am still learning the Wiki system. Please explain any mistakes to me.

I was a little bit flabbergasted to read about "the Turkish F-16 pilot Nail Erdogan, who was shot-down by a Greek Mirage 2000". Which is the source for this claim? As far as I know this allegation is built on a single article in a Greek popular magazine. The alleged shotdown has however not been proven as far as I know. I think pure speculation is sold here as a fact.

Any opinions on that?

--Letus 13:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Good question. The only thing I can do right now is a quick web search. Apparently

• [1] The shootdown has been claimed (but described as unintentional) by a popular Greek magazine (Krama), and confirmed by the Turkish military, but it was denied by the Greek government. In 2004, the family of the dead pilot sued the Greek government at the European Court of Human Rights, a case which the court has accepted.

Any other info?

(I had more links for parts of this information, but it got rejected by the spamfilter so I'm removing them. It's easy to google.)

Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your efforts. I am nevertheless afraid your information is not correct. I have done some research on the matter two years ago. The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) back then confirmed to me that they did not receive any application of this kind by the family of the dead pilot. My findings were subsequently published in a Greek magazine as I was told last year - without my knowledge that is. I can find out the source if necessary.

Three months ago a colleague from Greece contacted me and confirmed that the court still did not receive an application. The ECHR story seems quite like propaganda to my ears. It is a fine example of disinformation I am afraid. Sadly, rather typical for most of the Greek-Turkish disputes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Letus (talk • contribs).

Interesting! Now, at the moment we aren't even mentioning the ECHR case in the article, so there's nothing urgent to repair, but if you want to expand on it, it might make for another interesting note. But it would be crucial that you find that publication to quote from, since it's a Wikipedia rule that your own unpublished research results, however interesting and correct they may be, cannot be used here (WP:NOR). Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely. I too think it is not necessary to include this information in the article as is now. And I anyway want to find out the whereabouts of the unauthorized publication I mentioned. Letus 19:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)